The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

[Bppiper]

Negotiating now for a 6-shot early snubby. Stumping me a little bit as it has the early round site, small trigger guard but the latch looks like a later one maybe. Serial number seems to unlock all date questions in here. So in order to get a good idea of when this little guy was made or shipped I'll throw that out: C1241xx

Can anyone help me out real fast with a date? I'm due to meet and inspect the gun tomorrow. He's stating its 1948-50, but the latch looks later than that and the front site is spot on for that time. It's not a terrier for sure from what I see in these forums.

Thanks for any assistance here as I'm a long time carrier of Smiths but this is my first old timer gun. The ask is below $500 so I sure don't want to overpay

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

It's a K frame, M&P Model, to be the Model 10 in 1957, not a Chiefs Special which were only 5 shots and made on the smaller J frame. That's the correct latch, the K's didn't go thru all the iterations of the I and J frames. You'll notice it also has the 'High Speed Hammer', different from the Chiefs.

The K frames never changed the trigger guard size like the I and J frames in this thread.

The serial # dates it to ~ 1951.

[Bppiper]

Yeah I'm sitting here like fiend tearing through thousands of pages of the Internet and was just coming up with info on the early Ks.
Not sure how they factor sizewise to the Chiefs as I haven't seen the gun in person yet or whether it's a good gun to pick up.

What's a good market value for this C prefix in the general shape it's in? I want to make sure I'm not driving 2 hours to see it if it's not really a good gun or its way overpriced. Thanks for the quick reply hondo

[Hondo44]

These are very desirable. Larger than a J frame and heavier as a carry gun, but thousands have been carried and loved; one extra shot and less recoil.

The condition of the blue, the sanded off checkering and emblems in the stocks, however have depreciated the value somewhat.

Opinions will differ as well as value depending on location, but I wouldn't want that one unless under $450-$500. What's the seller asking for it?

[Bppiper]

$400
I'd like a nice small carry gun like a J frame so I'm not sure if this one is aprecisely bigger than would be comfortable.

[Malysh]

The K frame has always had the cylinder latch as shown in your picture. The smaller 5 shot improved I frame and it's sucessor the J frame went through a number of different flat cylinder latches (3). The earliest Chiefs Specials had the round half moon front sight and the K frame latch. Eventually, S&W dropped the flat latches for the 5 shot 38 Specials. The dished and checkered thumb latches preceeded the use of flat latches and have been a standard feature of S&W solid frame swing out cylinder revolvers since the designs early days, from the humble .32 S&W shorts to the K frame 38 Specials all the way up to the big N frame .357s and 44s.

As far as value for this 2" M&P, I would want to see a lot more.pictures before I drove 2 hrs. to examine it. It has incorrect stocks and a lot of blueing wear on the left side of the frame. If you just want one of these for a neat shooter or carry gun, and if this one has no mechanical issues and the other side of the gun is not atrocious, it's a $400 gun tops

[Bppiper]

I'll try to load some additional pictures

[bettis1]

It's certainly not a collector piece but there is no reason that it wouldn't continue to be a fine carry gun. They almost disappear in a small belt holster. Thousands of detectives have carried them for years. The price isn't bad and I would be tempted to make a day trip out of it to check other shops in the area and try to convince him of the damage to the finish, grips, etc. You never know what you might come away with.

Bob

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Bppiper

$400
I'd like a nice small carry gun like a J frame so I'm not sure if this one is aprecisely bigger than would be comfortable.

IMHO, if you want a J frame, you'll be disappointed with size and weight of the K frame. You'd like the reduced recoil of the K frame with standard and hot 38 Specials, but you can always shoot the more comfortable target loads in the J frame for practice, and carry it with full power loads for serious social work.

[Bppiper]

Yeah this is all good info. If I can talk him down to $300 it would fall into a good deal category. My great-grandfather was killed in the line of duty. He was a detective in Indiana and he carried a chief or baby chief then. So I may just hold out for one. I'd dearly love to have it next to his old pocket watch, police billy club, snitch book and detective calling card that I have.

Anyone have a line on an early round sight baby chief?

[Malysh]

I can see why you would like to have a nice Chiefs Special in honor of your grand dad. I am sure he would have been proud of you.

[Jimmyjones]

As to whether a J or K frame is the right size, is a question only you can answer. I have both J & K frame snubs, I carry the J's IWB or in a pocket, the K's OWB, I'm not a big guy, so the J's fit me better for all day carry. Although one of my J's is steel w/ 2" barrel and combat stocks, it's approaching K frame size & weight -1 round. If your considering pocket carry, J Frames are the way to go.


I like the early M&P snubbies and have a couple. Yours looks to be carried a lot shot little, I'd be happy to carry it. I think $400 is a good starting point, I'd try for less, but I'd pay what he asked.

my $0.02

[Bppiper]

I'm the only one in the family that followed his profession. 27 years now. In 2001 I went to DC. I was the first person in the family to have seen his name on the Law Enforcement memorial wall. Very emotional for me. I made a rubbing of his name so I could frame it.

They never caught his killer and his murder was never solved. One of the big reason I went into cop work. But this is all to sad a tale for this forum. Just let me know if anyone spots one of these or someone is looking to sell one. Doesn't have to be pristine just one of the very early j frame Chief versions will do.

[Hondo44]

As you might expect, the round sight versions are the scarcest and priciest. Everybody and their brothers are looking for them.

Does anyone in your family know whatever happened to your granddad's Chiefs Special?

[Bppiper]

Well when it comes to something like a collection in memorial I'm not too faint when it comes to price really.

I imagine either his partner or the department took the gun. (He was shot in the back) so he never got a shot off.

[Zeman]

I posted a separate thread on this gun, but I thought it might fit in here.
Serial number 148XXX
Manufacture-1959-ish
3 inch Square Butt
Looks to have been shot very little

[Ag76]

I recently inherited a Smith & Wesson revolver, 38 Special. It looks like to me it's a Chief's Special Model 36, but I could be wrong. I took it apart last night and cleaned all the parts and reassembled. It has no model number but has a number on the bottom of the grip, 94XX. I'd like to make sure I've got the model right, and maybe when it was manufactured and any relevant information on the gun if that's possible. Thanks for the help.

I ordered a spring kit for a Smith & Wesson J frame including a Model 36. This revolver is a J frame, correct?

[CZU]

Originally Posted by Ag76

I recently inherited a Smith & Wesson revolver, 38 Special. It looks like to me it's a Chief's Special Model 36, but I could be wrong. I took it apart last night and cleaned all the parts and reassembled. It has no model number but has a number on the bottom of the grip, 94XX. I'd like to make sure I've got the model right, and maybe when it was manufactured and any relevant information on the gun if that's possible. Thanks for the help.

I ordered a spring kit for a Smith & Wesson J frame including a Model 36. This revolver is a J frame, correct?

You might take a look at this thread...

Early Chiefs Special "Baby Chief" scarcity and variations

[peepaw]

Somewhere around 1954.



And a three inch.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Ag76

I recently inherited a Smith & Wesson revolver, 38 Special. It looks like to me it's a Chief's Special Model 36, but I could be wrong. I took it apart last night and cleaned all the parts and reassembled. It has no model number but has a number on the bottom of the grip, 94XX. I'd like to make sure I've got the model right, and maybe when it was manufactured and any relevant information on the gun if that's possible. Thanks for the help.

I ordered a spring kit for a Smith & Wesson J frame including a Model 36. This revolver is a J frame, correct?

Welcome to the forum.

that's a beauty and a great family heirloom to hand down to future generations!

It's a 5 shot, that makes it a Model .38 Chiefs Special. And it's an early one with small trigger guard which makes it a "Baby" Chiefs Special, in collector speak, a 2nd version w/ramp front sight. Made ~ March, 1953. Way too early for a model #, they weren't assigned until mid-1957.

All the details about Chiefs if you're interested:

Simplified Chronology - "Model .38 Chiefs Special" Simplified Chronology - "Model .38 Chiefs Special" - Smith & Wesson Forum

Enjoy,

[Ag76]

Jim, thanks for the information and the welcome. Is this a pistol that I should keep in the safe instead of firing a lot of rounds through it? I've not fired it since I just got it, but am wondering if I should shoot it or keep it as a collectible?

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Welcome to the forum.

that's a beauty and a great family heirloom to hand down to future generations!

It's a 5 shot, that makes it a Model .38 Chiefs Special. And it's an early one with small trigger guard which makes it a "Baby" Chiefs Special, in collector speak, a 2nd version w/ramp front sight. Made ~ March, 1953. Way too early for a model #, they weren't assigned until mid-1957.

All the details about Chiefs if you're interested:

Simplified Chronology - "Model .38 Chiefs Special" Simplified Chronology - "Model .38 Chiefs Special" - Smith & Wesson Forum

Enjoy,

[jackvs1]

Originally Posted by Ag76

I recently inherited a Smith & Wesson revolver, 38 Special. It looks like to me it's a Chief's Special Model 36, but I could be wrong. I took it apart last night and cleaned all the parts and reassembled. It has no model number but has a number on the bottom of the grip, 94XX. I'd like to make sure I've got the model right, and maybe when it was manufactured and any relevant information on the gun if that's possible. Thanks for the help.

I ordered a spring kit for a Smith & Wesson J frame including a Model 36. This revolver is a J frame, correct?

I would not shoot this; is the serial number 94xx on the face of the cylinder and the underside of barrel where ejector rod lays? Also is the number 94XX on the inside of your right grip? I could not tell if the front sight had a smooth or serrated ramp. Collectors call this a Baby Chief, note the smaller round trigger guard compared to a pre 36 or 36 which is more egg shaped. You also have the flat latch cylinder release. You have a beauty.

[Ag76]

Jack, the four digit number is stamped on the bottom of the grip frame between the grip panels. The four digits of the serial number are stamped inside the right grip panel. The digit 9 is stamped above the other three digits. The front sight is smooth.

Originally Posted by jackvs1

I would not shoot this; is the serial number 94xx on the face of the cylinder and the underside of barrel where ejector rod lays? Also is the number 94XX on the inside of your right grip? I could not tell if the front sight had a smooth or serrated ramp. Collectors call this a Baby Chief, note the smaller round trigger guard compared to a pre 36 or 36 which is more egg shaped. You also have the flat latch cylinder release. You have a beauty.

[Rick_A]

Matching numbers with ****** grips...

20150322_005022(1) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

20150322_004932 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

20150322_005405(0) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

20150322_005254 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

It's quite cute.

[Malysh]

Originally Posted by Leatherhead23

Baby Chief I aquired.....

#13501. 1952?

Serrated ramp front sight.

That's a beauty.

[jackvs1]

Really nice Baby Chief, congrats.

[Leatherhead23]

Originally Posted by Malysh

That's a beauty.

Originally Posted by jackvs1

Really nice Baby Chief, congrats.

Thanks guys. I'm excited to have her.

[OldDominion]

Baby Chief I aquired.....

#13501. 1952?

Serrated ramp front sight.



That's a beautiful Chief. According to my logs, most likely shipped September '52.

[Leatherhead23]

Originally Posted by OldDominion

Baby Chief I aquired.....

#13501. 1952?

Serrated ramp front sight.



That's a beautiful Chief. According to my logs, most likely shipped September '52.

Great! Thanks for that info!

[Absalom]

I just found this old thread while browsing with the search function after acquiring an oldish Model 36.

Way too many cool pictures to let this linger in obscurity! So to revive the zombie once again, here are a couple of photos of my new addition:

A Model 36 with serial # 1489XX, which should place it approximately in 1959. A retired detective's service gun from New York, it is the first revolver in my collection with the asymmetric wooden stock wear on the left panel, indicating a left-handed officer. Stocks number to the gun. The dealer I acquired it from, a retired NY cop himself who joined up in 1965, expressed his surprise that the condition of the inner grip frame indicates the owner never had a Tyler or other adapter installed at any time, which apparently was almost universal practice in that era. Given the length of service indicated by the stock wear, the gun is in very good shape otherwise and has obviously been well taken care of; action is tight and crisp.

[les.b]

George, you have some beautiful babies there! By the way, you have 594, and 584 just sold on GB last night for $1450 I think. Smith Wesson Pre 36 HALF MOON Blue 5-screw 38 Spl : Revolvers at GunBroker.com Is the link. I bid on it up to a thousand, but it wasn't, or didn't look nearly as good as yours. I think the seller is in the Birminham, AL area. Love your collection of baby chiefs and their matching homes!!!

[M1A]

This Chief was a hand me down. All I've been able to find out that it is a pre Model 36. SN 464XX. Can't find a model# anywhere. I changed the grips, but have the originals.

[Hondo44]

M1A,

You have a very nice and glitzy Model of 1953, .38 Chiefs Special. An early version with the old style
hammer and 4 screw side plate. From about 4 years before there even were Model #s; assigned May 1957.
It likely shipped in the 2nd quarter of 1954.

It's been nickeled over a blue gun or re-nickeled, but since the factory policy was to color case harden all triggers and hammers,
even on nickel models, it's not the factory original finish.

[OldDominion]

I picked up these ivories last year and I think they look pretty good on this nickel Pre36 that shipped Feb. 1957.

[jackvs1]

Hope this is ok, just posted a thread on this unmarked Chiefs Special Target, S/N 150072, shipped in 1959. Note the front sight.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by jackvs1

Hope this is ok, just posted a thread on this unmarked Chiefs Special Target, S/N 150072, shipped in 1959. Note the front sight.

Yep, that's a very nice CST2 (Chief Special Target 2nd release, late 1950s) likely 1959 or thereabout.

The first release of the CST were 114 in total. Very few in 1955, while the bulk were produced in 1956. These first release CSTs are numbered in the 55xxx and 57xxx number ranges with the majority found in the 57xxx range. While books indicate 55000 to 57000, I have never seen one in the 56000 range.

In the CST1 SN range, I have the oldest known to exist (while records show one older was manufacture but has never surfaced) and the only 3 factory engraved that will "letter" as factory engraved. I have seen only one other engraved CST1 that looks correct but will not letter as factory engraved.

[Hondo44]

That's certainly ok and a real beauty. Obviously yours was already in the production process when the change order was issued on June 12, 1957
to stamp the newly assigned model numbers in the yoke.

The front sight is the standard ramp blade w/o a base of the 22/32 Target and Kit Gun of the same era. The Chiefs Special Targets were not introduced
with a front sight base until the 1976 production run. (The Mod 34 Kit Gun did not receive the sight base change until introduced in stainless
as the Mod 63 in 1977.)

Yours is numbered near the end of the 198 last of the 1950 Target production runs:

• 312 in 1954-55, Pre Model 37, 3 ½” barrel, reportedly but unconfirmed. These are not in the final count of 2136 Targets.

• First run of 100 in 1955, Pre Model 36, # range 55050-57919, 2” Sq butt, 2nd style flat latch, 4 screw frames, pre war style hammer.

• 14 in 1956, Pre model 36, 2nd style flat latch, new Model of 1953 target style hammer, these may still be 4 screw models.

• 198 in 1959, Pre Mod & Model 36, # range 149811-150133, 2" Sq Butt, 2nd and 3rd style flat latch.

From my commentary here: http://smith-wessonforum.com/blogs/h...l-targets.html

[jackvs1]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

That's certainly ok and a real beauty. Obviously yours was already in the production process when the change order was issued on June 12, 1957
to stamp the newly assigned model numbers in the yoke.

The front sight is the standard ramp blade w/o a base of the 22/32 Target and Kit Gun of the same era. The Chiefs Special Targets were not introduced
with a front sight base until the 1976 production run. (The Mod 34 Kit Gun did not receive the sight base change until introduced in stainless
as the Mod 63 in 1977.)

Yours is numbered near the end of the 198 last of the 1950 Target production runs:

• 312 in 1954-55, Pre Model 37, 3 ½” barrel, reportedly but unconfirmed. These are not in the final count of 2136 Targets.

• First run of 100 in 1955, Pre Model 36, # range 55050-57919, 2” Sq butt, 2nd style flat latch, 4 screw frames, pre war style hammer.

• 14 in 1956, Pre model 36, 2nd style flat latch, new Model of 1953 target style hammer, these may still be 4 screw models.

• 198 in 1959, Pre Mod & Model 36, # range 149811-150133, 2" Sq Butt, 2nd and 3rd style flat latch.

From my commentary here: CHIEFS SPECIAL TARGETS - Smith & Wesson Forum
__________________

Jim, thanks, the link you provided keeps bringing me to an Amazon cite. Jack

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by jackvs1

Jim, thanks, the link you provided keeps bringing me to an Amazon cite. Jack

Sorry about that. Ok fixed it.

[jackvs1]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Sorry about that. Ok fixed it.

Thanks Jim, saw it on the other thread and subscribed. What a wealth of information.

[STORMINORMAN]

Please see my post of today: for some reason I can't be recognized and/or go to an "Advanced" posting from this screen?

Obviously no attachments, etc.

[STORMINORMAN]

Posted today on this Forum about S/N 6881 and was advised it is not a "Baby Chiefs" but a "Mod of 53"...

Please help clarify!

Thanks!

p.s. I've added a couple of the attachments from my original post from today.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN

Posted today on this Forum about S/N 6881 and was advised it is not a "Baby Chiefs" but a "Mod of 53"...

Please help clarify!

Thanks!

p.s. I've added a couple of the attachments from my original post from today.

It is first and foremost a "Chief's Special", further, a very early one. Nicknamed "baby chief" for the smaller trigger guard and appearance. Whomever told you it is a "Mod of 53" likely means it is a model of the Chief's Special that was likely manufactured in 1953 NOT that the name of it is named a "Mod of 53" as might be used in the Model of 1950 or 1955 target Revolver or the Model of 1891 Single Shot and revolver.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN

Posted today on this Forum about S/N 6881 and was advised it is
not a "Baby Chiefs" but a "Mod of 53"...

Please help clarify!

Thanks!

p.s. I've added a couple of the attachments from my original post from today.

No, you misunderstand. It is a Baby Chief, Baby Chiefs are not pre models. The Model of 1953 Chiefs Specials are pre models.

'Pre model' clarification:
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a
model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.

That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term
pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish which version Chief Spl is really being discussed.

Check posts # 319 and 332 to see pre model 36s.

[STORMINORMAN]

Thank you, Jim. So, my friend's gun is a Baby Chiefs because of the low S/N, smaller trigger guard, flat cylinder release. It is older than those pictured on posts # 319 and 332.

It is a pre-Model 36 because it is not marked so on the frame at the crane area.

What is a "Baby J"?

Cheers!

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

No, you misunderstand. It is a Baby Chief, Baby Chiefs are not pre models. The Model of 1953 Chiefs Specials are pre models.

'Pre model' clarification:
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a
model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.

That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term
pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish which version Chief Spl is really being discussed.

Check posts # 319 and 332 to see pre model 36s.

Jim, now I'm confused. I've been collecting J's for many a decade now. I have never seen a Chief Special referred to as "Model of 1953" but I have seen that phrase used to describe a .22 Kit Gun of that genre. I have referred to these as only "early" Chief Specials, even before the term "baby Chief" ever came to be. Then by front sight changes in the early runs, the first "half moon" type, then the non-serrated sloped sight, and finally the serrated sloped front sight. Also by the style of the flat latches.

I have seen a series of terms used, many times ... mistakenly, but with a few more questions can usually determine exactly what the person asking or seller is describing. e.g. same thing that most NON S&W guys might describe any large frame top break a Schofield. My blood boils when someone remains adamant that they have a Schofield that turns out to be anything BUT a Schofield, yet others persist in stating Schofield-type or style revolver when it is certainly NOT a Schofield type or style. It is a Model Number 3 of whatever precise type it is, e.g. Russian 1, 2, 3, (Old, Old old remember those names ?) American 1st, 2nd, New Model 3, etc.
Also a 1st Model .44 Double action is not a New Model 3 Double action.

It comes down to this: Among collectors, an early Chief Special is usually just that, the serial number telling all, except front sight type. The smaller size with the small trigger guard is nicknamed the Baby Chief, OK.

Is this same early Chief Special (baby Chief) classified in legitimate print anywhere as a "Model of 1953" or is it just a classification to quickly and accurately describe the exact frame type, collector to collector ?

[Malysh]

This is the reason I never use the "pre model" tag when discussing S&Ws.
What this phrase primarily does is confuse S&W neophytes.

The reason and goal of having language is to increase how well humans communicate, not make it more confusing

[M1A]

I posted a chromed Chiefs Special in post #332. This is the brother, which is sadly inherited. SN 427XX. Grips match. Serrated front sight and flat latch. It was an ankle holster backup.

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Malysh

This is the reason I never use the "pre model" tag when discussing S&Ws.
What this phrase primarily does is confuse S&W neophytes.

The reason and goal of having language is to increase how well humans communicate, not make it more confusing

When I first started collecting S&Ws (more years ago that I care to admit) the old-timers were very good to me and always willing to teach or recommend special reading, articles, books, etc. Fast forward 40+ years I have one heck of a library and hope I never have to move it.

Most of the old-time collectors (very sorry now that most of them are gone) would be eager to teach but quick (and sometimes harsh) in correcting the use of the word "pre" before any other word.

For example if it is a Chief's Special it is a Chief's Special PERIOD ! If it is a Model-36 or 36-1 then THAT is exactly what it is.

If it is a .357, it was either a Registered Magnum, Non-Registered Magnum, a Post-war ("post" war instantly tell you it "ain't" a RM or Non-RM), 5 screw, 4-screw or it was a Model 27. None were a pre-27.

In matters of description (to determine what the heck someone is describing that has not had the benefit of the years) the old timers (of which I now "are" one) usually tolerate the pre-designations because it's just too much trouble to teach proper English in a word where you have to press #1 for English and #2 for Spanish, etc.

Chief Specials are relatively straight forward. The serial number tells the most. If early, the front sight is the next question, after which the type of flat latch is next. Upper side plate screw or not, another question. If an alloy frame were once described as Chief Special, "aluminum" or "lightweight" (then Airweight ) on the progression of the boxes, the question of concern, after the serial number, is "alloy or steel cylinder". Then round or square butt, however, I never witnessed a collector find a nice old Chief's Special and refuse to buy it because it either had a round butt or a square butt.

The only exception to the Chief Specials being straight forward is the Chief's Special Target models made in several variations but began with a total of 114 in the 1955-56 time frame. That is a topic well covered in another thread.

The short moral of the story is, there is really no such thing as a "pre" ANTYTHING to a hard core S&W collector, although "pre-war" seemed to be OK to use. If you had to ask which war, you just lost a source of information.

Should any elder statesman ever use the word "pre" it is only because he gave up trying to teach the differences between the use of word ... that some newer collectors might think is "splitting-hairs" or being uppity or snobbish.

If you think that is the case, you're wrong. Many years ago the first (and only) person to ever cut me to size (and I am VERY tall) for using the "Pre" designation was the Commander-in-Chief (himself) ... the only guy knows more about S&Ws than anyone else on the planet and who owns of the words "Smith & Wesson" regardless of who owns the trademark.

I was always under the impression that the original name designated was "Chief's Special" yet I see most print as "Chiefs Special", (without the apostrophe .

So what is it ? Is it a "Chief's" Special, a "Chiefs" Special ?

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[HARDWARE]