Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #401  
Old 03-03-2017, 10:21 PM
Lngstrt's Avatar
Lngstrt Lngstrt is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 6 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
the modified sight hurts the value but as an heirloom from your dad, it's priceless anyway!
Thanks for the info and the link.

So we are assuming it has been 'modified' sometime after it left S&W. I know Dad wasn't the type to do that to a firearm. "If you can't return it to stock, don't do it." ....... to guns or cars! Must have been done by the previous owner.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #402  
Old 03-03-2017, 11:38 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 2,336
Liked 5,299 Times in 1,129 Posts
Default

Keeping the thread alive, here is #71xxx from 1955:






Could the MOP stocks be "factory"?

Best,
Charles

Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 03-04-2017 at 05:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #403  
Old 03-04-2017, 04:47 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Charles, that's a beauty.

Have you checked the back of the right side grip panel for a matching # to the gun? They could be factory. Factory premium grips did not have S&W monogram medallions after the war.

It's now the latest Model of 1953 Chiefs Special with old style hammer and 4 screw side plate in my database.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #404  
Old 03-04-2017, 11:27 AM
bmcgilvray's Avatar
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is offline
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,474
Likes: 2,519
Liked 2,058 Times in 474 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lngstrt View Post
My Dad had this Smith for as long as I can remember. He always thought it was "something odd" but never really figured out why. He seemed to think it was a Chief on an 'I' frame.
....And the front sight is different than I see on the pics on-line. Any help would .... help!





























I kind of like just looking at that front sight. It may not be factory, but perhaps it should have been. Sleek and elegant it is.

Resembles a mini Colt New Service "shark fin" front sight, but with a ramp.

Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #405  
Old 03-04-2017, 08:41 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 785
Liked 1,577 Times in 377 Posts
Default

pre-model 36 with serial number 39503...


Last edited by LOBO; 07-24-2017 at 06:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #406  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:14 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

LOBO,

That's a sweetheart, love those India Sambar Stag grips! I think I see a small little red sight insert, very tasteful.

You have a 2nd variation Baby J Frame Chiefs, 5 screw. It actually pre-dates the Pre model 36 which is the Model of 1953 with 4 or 3 screws. You could say you have a Pre Model 1953 though.

I would put your #39503 as shipping in the last half of 1954.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #407  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:45 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 785
Liked 1,577 Times in 377 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
LOBO,

That's a sweetheart, love those India Sambar Stag grips! I think I see a small little red sight insert, very tasteful.

You have a 2nd variation Baby J Frame Chiefs, 5 screw. It actually pre-dates the Pre model 36 which is the Model of 1953 with 4 or 3 screws. You could say you have a Pre Model 1953 though.

I would put your #39503 as shipping in the last half of 1954.
Thank you for all of that great info! I really do appreciate it.

Good eye! It's a little bit of red paint that was put on there by a previous owner. It works just as good as an insert though

I've often wondered how old the stags are?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #408  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:09 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Those stags are as old as that gun. I can't see the other side. But the dull stag could be from a left handed shooter or was holstered next to the body and absorbed a lot of sweat.

Either way they'll shine like new with a little polishing. Sand with 1000 grit paper, 1500, and end up with 2000 grit. A light buffing after that and they'll gleam like they were new; like porcelain.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 03-04-2017 at 10:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #409  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:48 AM
bettis1's Avatar
bettis1 bettis1 is offline
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,958
Likes: 166
Liked 2,482 Times in 669 Posts
Default

What Jim said about cleaning your grips is very well true, but I would caution you to pause and give it some thought before you move forward. Much of the beauty (and value) of old stag, ivory, or bone grips is in the age patina that they gain from use as the years stretch into decades and centuries.

Your grips are beautiful and their color is a part of their history just as the finish on the revolver is.

Bob
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #410  
Old 03-05-2017, 04:35 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 785
Liked 1,577 Times in 377 Posts
Default

I really like the used/aged look to the grips. It just adds to the gun I believe. I wondered about the left hand shooter aspect too since the left side is decidedly more aged than the right.

Here is a set of pics showing both sides,



Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #411  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:44 AM
Raydog Raydog is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 69
Likes: 314
Liked 90 Times in 48 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOBO View Post
I really like the used/aged look to the grips. It just adds to the gun I believe. I wondered about the left hand shooter aspect too since the left side is decidedly more aged than the right.

Here is a set of pics showing both sides,
I agree, especially on a gun with a little honest ware on it.

Interesting about the amount of difference in the color between the left and right side.

Sweet little piece.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #412  
Old 03-06-2017, 08:44 AM
bettis1's Avatar
bettis1 bettis1 is offline
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,958
Likes: 166
Liked 2,482 Times in 669 Posts
Default

It is hard to reconcile the difference in color of the two halves. The difference is greater than I would expect from simply carrying on one side. Perhaps the gun has laid on one side exposed to the sun or the dark side was lying on an oily rag. Another possibility is that one side has already been cleaned. A look at the inner surface of both grips might give us a better guess.

I do note that the picture of the right side seems to be more overexposed (based on the background) than the left side picture is.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #413  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:16 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 785
Liked 1,577 Times in 377 Posts
Default

Here some new pics. They are untouched except for cropping,



Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #414  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:41 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Actually the right side looks sanded!
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #415  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:46 PM
bettis1's Avatar
bettis1 bettis1 is offline
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,958
Likes: 166
Liked 2,482 Times in 669 Posts
Default

I agree with Jim. The right grip seems to have a matte finish indicating that it has been lightly sanded and the left side has a shiney finish. I see no difference on the insides of the grips which also lends credibility to the "sanding" theory.

Bob
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #416  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:02 PM
Raydog Raydog is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 69
Likes: 314
Liked 90 Times in 48 Posts
Default

Sanding sounds like a reasonable explanation . Really to bad, IMO the honey coloring really adds to the over all look of this gun.

Not that the White looks bad by any means, just a matter of degree of beauty and personal tastes.

Last edited by Raydog; 03-06-2017 at 07:07 PM. Reason: Added thought.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #417  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:19 PM
LOBO's Avatar
LOBO LOBO is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,943
Likes: 785
Liked 1,577 Times in 377 Posts
Default

I like 'em regardless as they came with the gun I appreciate the info all!
Reply With Quote
  #418  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:25 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
Vendor
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 1,609
Likes: 2,913
Liked 1,348 Times in 522 Posts
Default

Stags are making a come back it seems. Either you love them or you don't. Same with pearls.
__________________
Sal "ANTIQUESMITHS"
LM1300
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #419  
Old 03-08-2017, 12:27 AM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 2,336
Liked 5,299 Times in 1,129 Posts
Default

Add these two to the mix:
1) Model 36 no dash #183xxx
2) Model 37 no dash #218xxx



Best,
Charles
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #420  
Old 03-08-2017, 01:09 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Top gun is 1960-61.

Airweight is 1961, clearly before 1967 because the flat latch was phased out in 1966.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #421  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:29 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 2,336
Liked 5,299 Times in 1,129 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Top gun is 1960-61.

Airweight is 1961, clearly before 1967 because the flat latch was phased out in 1966.
Thank you, Jim!!


Best,
Charles
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #422  
Old 03-08-2017, 11:17 PM
wiskerchew's Avatar
wiskerchew wiskerchew is offline
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: South Central Alaska
Posts: 48
Likes: 16
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:

16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame

But I still need a 3" barrel version...

Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #423  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:36 AM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiskerchew View Post
I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:

16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame

But I still need a 3" barrel version...

Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #424  
Old 03-09-2017, 08:59 AM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe View Post
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
Negative.


Baby Chief's are improved I frame. Hence the name.
__________________
SWCA #2854
Reply With Quote
  #425  
Old 03-09-2017, 10:47 AM
les.b's Avatar
les.b les.b is online now
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 3,028
Likes: 38,993
Liked 8,960 Times in 2,375 Posts
Default

In response to some of the above posts, I think that much of this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiskerchew View Post
I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:

16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flati latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame

Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe View Post
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23 View Post
Negative.

Baby Chief's are improved I frame. Hence the name.
Well......

Hondo44 has the most definitive explanation of the Baby Chiefs, but I'll take a stab at it. The very first Chiefs Special does indeed have the grip of the Inproved I frame (at least the one which was being used at the time the Chiefs was introduced) so in that respect it appears much as the Improved I, but it is still a "J" frame, as the cylinder window has been lengthened to accommodate the longer cylinder necessary to use the longer .38 Special cartridge. So HeyJoe is correct, if they are 38 Specials, they are J frames.

Leatherhead23 is partly correct in that the Baby Chiefs are similar to the Improved I frame, in that they have the smaller grip section. If you put an early fifties Terrier (38 S&W CTG) alongside a Baby Chiefs (38 Special CTG) you will see that while the grip area is identical, the frame is slightly longer to accommodate the longer cylinder.

Here are two Terriers, both on the Improved I frame, top one is from April 1952, and the bottom from September of 1954:



Here is my smooth ramp Baby Chief from May of 1952:



So if you look at the top Terrier, and the Chiefs Special, they were shipped within a month of each other. Note the longer cylinder of the Chiefs Special. But, they have the same length of grip profile. One is an Improved I, and the other a "baby' J. If you look at the two Terriers together, though, you will see that the bottom has a longer grip area that the top!!

Please see Hondo44's thread on this confusing subject, or if you have the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, 4th ed., You can read some of his information under his name, Jim Carter. He has a wealth of data on these fascinating little gems.

Best Regards, Les
__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Last edited by les.b; 07-23-2017 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Add Photos (Delete photobucket and replace with forum photos)
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #426  
Old 03-09-2017, 12:54 PM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...

As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.


I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....

Improved I frame for the win!
__________________
SWCA #2854
Reply With Quote
  #427  
Old 03-09-2017, 01:30 PM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23 View Post
All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...

As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.


I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....

Improved I frame for the win!
the cylinder window is part of the frame also and the overall frame itself is longer in the baby chiefs than the i frame.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #428  
Old 03-09-2017, 02:42 PM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe View Post
the cylinder window is part of the frame also and the overall frame itself is longer in the baby chiefs than the i frame.
Correct.....that's why it is considered an 'Improved I frame'

Not quite the J yet.....
__________________
SWCA #2854
Reply With Quote
  #429  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:08 PM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

From page 8 of this thread. Baby Chiefs are J frames


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
You have what's known by collectors as a "Baby J frame". It was introduced in 1950 with a 1/2 round front sight. They have the smaller grip frame size of the I frame of the time, but it's longer cyl window for the 38 Spl makes it a J frame.

Yours is the 2nd variation with barrel rib and ramp front sight. The ramp has been reshaped. That's the only difference from a standard Baby J frame. Based on its serial #6795 it's from the last half of 1952. It's in beautiful condition although the modified sight hurts the value but as an heirloom from your dad, it's priceless anyway!

You can read much more detail about early Chiefs in my commentary here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=104
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #430  
Old 03-10-2017, 04:23 PM
Engine49guy's Avatar
Engine49guy Engine49guy is offline
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 6,417
Likes: 1,259
Liked 5,782 Times in 1,993 Posts
Default

IIRC the original I frame had a leaf mainspring (Shown left below) where the improved I frame had a coil mainspring (shown right below without strain screw).


The J frame was introduced with a coil mainspring and had a bigger cylinder window and associated longer cylinder ,

If you focus on the distance from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the frame in the picture below you will notice is longer on the J frame (top gun) than on the I frame pictured below it:


Terriers and Kit guns were originally built on I frames but changed to being made on J frames at some point.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #431  
Old 03-10-2017, 07:39 PM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe View Post
From page 8 of this thread. Baby Chiefs are J frames
I'm about to order some stocks for my Baby Chief.....

Which size do I order?
__________________
SWCA #2854
Reply With Quote
  #432  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:49 PM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

It's all explained in the last post i made which included a quote from Hondo 44. But you knew that when you just made your post. You seem to be the type that when in error refuses to acknowledge the point. If you think you know more than Hondo 44 about baby chiefs good luck to you. At this point you are just embarrassing yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #433  
Old 03-11-2017, 10:41 AM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Haha..nah...just proving that they are not simply a J frame.

They aren't an I frame either.



Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame


Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.


That shorter grip frame is still important.


I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.


-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame


^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
__________________
SWCA #2854

Last edited by Leatherhead23; 03-11-2017 at 11:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #434  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:25 PM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

another post on the subject on page 2 of this thread, this time by Handejector
Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector View Post
An interesting thread.
It is a really good chance to learn much about early Chief's.
For several decades, many have referred to the early Chief's that have the short grips and small trigger guards as the "Baby Chief".

I can address a few points:

Remember- NO Chief's Special is built on the I frame. The I frame cyl is too short to accept a 38 Spec.

Last edited by HeyJoe; 03-13-2017 at 02:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #435  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:30 PM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe View Post
anther post on the subject on page 2 of this thread, this time by Handejector
Are you not even reading what you're posting?


My last post on this silly argument....


I agree with the referenced post by Handejector's...the Baby Chief's are NOT an I frame.

They are also....NOT a J frame.


They are an Improved I frame. AKA Baby J frame.


Three different frame sizes...I, Improved I, and J.



The faster you learn this, the better collector you be because you can inform others correctly.

Nice chatting with you.



P.S....I find it odd that you use other people's word for YOUR side of the argument. I speak for myself.
__________________
SWCA #2854

Last edited by Leatherhead23; 03-11-2017 at 09:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #436  
Old 03-11-2017, 09:43 PM
HeyJoe's Avatar
HeyJoe HeyJoe is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 388
Likes: 537
Liked 159 Times in 90 Posts
Default

I quote them because they know much more on the subject than I do and i defer to their expertise in that area. If you read Handejectors full post on the second page you will see that he is answering someone who had said that Baby Chiefs are improved I frames.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #437  
Old 03-13-2017, 01:37 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23 View Post
Haha..nah...just proving that they are not simply a J frame.

They aren't an I frame either.

Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame

Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.

That shorter grip frame is still important.

I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.

-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame

^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
Leatherhead23,

The convoluted I and J frame evolution of the 1950s lacked research and correct documentation in the books for many years and that caused confusion.

There are three I frame variations and two frame sizes, (because 1 & 2 are the same size, just different mainsprings):

1. Pre war and Post war Transitional with leaf spring
2. Improved I with coil spring
3. Model 1953 NEW I frame forging


And 2 J frame size variations, but both have the same cyl window size:

Baby J
Model of 1953 NEW J frame forging

All vintages of J frames have an 1/8" longer cyl window than I frames, which determines them to be J frames. Neither trigger guard size nor grip frame length determine the frame size.

So there are two I and J frame grip frame sizes:

Pre model 1953 Transitional and Improved I frames, and Baby J frames have the same size grip frame lengths and grips interchange, (and same small trigger guards).

Model of 1953 NEW I frames and NEW J frames forging, again both have the same NEW 1/8" longer grip frame length, and larger egg shaped trigger guards. Since these grip frames are the same size, grips will also interchange.

I hope this is helpful,
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 03-13-2017 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #438  
Old 03-14-2017, 07:33 AM
Leatherhead23's Avatar
Leatherhead23 Leatherhead23 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1,971
Liked 3,031 Times in 517 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Leatherhead23,

The convoluted I and J frame evolution of the 1950s lacked research and correct documentation in the books for many years and that caused confusion.

There are three I frame variations and two frame sizes, (because 1 & 2 are the same size, just different mainsprings):

1. Pre war and Post war Transitional with leaf spring
2. Improved I with coil spring
3. Model 1953 NEW I frame forging


And 2 J frame size variations, but both have the same cyl window size:

Baby J
Model of 1953 NEW J frame forging

All vintages of J frames have an 1/8" longer cyl window than I frames, which determines them to be J frames. Neither trigger guard size nor grip frame length determine the frame size.

So there are two I and J frame grip frame sizes:

Pre model 1953 Transitional and Improved I frames, and Baby J frames have the same size grip frame lengths and grips interchange, (and same small trigger guards).

Model of 1953 NEW I frames and NEW J frames forging, again both have the same NEW 1/8" longer grip frame length, and larger egg shaped trigger guards. Since these grip frames are the same size, grips will also interchange.

I hope this is helpful,
Well since it's so easy to understand and all.....sheesh. Thanks S&W. Lol

I'll stick to my K and N frames and stop trying to understand several frame sizes all being called the same thing.

Thanks for stepping in. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was just having fun debating.....I'd debate that the sky is red if I get the chance....

HeyJoe....you're right. But I guess you knew that.

I'll go back to just posting pictures and stay out if the S&W deciphering department.
__________________
SWCA #2854
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #439  
Old 03-14-2017, 10:43 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23 View Post
Well since it's so easy to understand and all.....sheesh. Thanks S&W. Lol

I'll stick to my K and N frames and stop trying to understand several frame sizes all being called the same thing.

Thanks for stepping in. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was just having fun debating.....I'd debate that the sky is red if I get the chance....

HeyJoe....you're right. But I guess you knew that.

I'll go back to just posting pictures and stay out if the S&W deciphering department.


It seems there's very little about S&Ws to understand easily, and there's absolutely no more complicated frame size than the I frames and the J frames to figure out. There's now 3 different J frame sizes, Baby J, 1953 J, and the relatively recent J Magnum frame. And of course the 3 I frames.

We've all learned a lot from this forum, and once we do, we can help others, which you have the disposition to do. So don't give up now that you can advise/debate from a more informed position.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #440  
Old 03-14-2017, 11:17 PM
THREEDFLYER's Avatar
THREEDFLYER THREEDFLYER is offline
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 1,309
Likes: 1,509
Liked 1,023 Times in 262 Posts
Default

I had the fortune to pick up an early 4-digit S/N Baby Chief from a long time S&W collector a few years back. Was most likely shipped in 1952. The gun is near mint and the only thing that could make it better would be if it had the box!
__________________
Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Last edited by THREEDFLYER; 03-14-2017 at 11:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #441  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:06 PM
OldSarge21's Avatar
OldSarge21 OldSarge21 is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Yooper
Posts: 23
Likes: 3
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Default

I picked up a really neat little Pre-36 Chief today. Flat latch, round butt, 5 shot. Unfortunately it has later stocks on it but it shoots really well. Bluing is starting to plum a little but it is a shooter. 5 screw. Not sure but it think it is a I frame although the J frame stocks fit ok. Ser #296XX.

I'm new to the forum and don't know how to post pics yet. Sorry. When I figure it out I will post.

Am kind of new to collecting S&W revolvers but currently have 5: 4" Nickel 29-3, 6.5" SS 629-6, 6" Blue 586-1, 4" SS 64-5, Pre-36 Chief Special.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #442  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:24 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSarge21 View Post
I picked up a really neat little Pre-36 Chief today. Flat latch, round butt, 5 shot. Unfortunately it has later stocks on it but it shoots really well. Bluing is starting to plum a little but it is a shooter. 5 screw. Not sure but it think it is a I frame although the J frame stocks fit ok. Ser #296XX.

I'm new to the forum and don't know how to post pics yet. Sorry. When I figure it out I will post.

Am kind of new to collecting S&W revolvers but currently have 5: 4" Nickel 29-3, 6.5" SS 629-6, 6" Blue 586-1, 4" SS 64-5, Pre-36 Chief Special.
Welcome to the forum OldSarge.

If your gun chambers 38 S&W Special cartridges, it can't be an I frame. See post #437 above.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #443  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:38 PM
les.b's Avatar
les.b les.b is online now
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: May 2015
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 3,028
Likes: 38,993
Liked 8,960 Times in 2,375 Posts
Default

OldSarge21:

Welcome to the forum, and the wonderful world of Smith and Wessons!! I sure hope that you enjoy this forum as much as we do!!! I'm sure that you will.

We'll be watching for your photos...

Best Regards, Les
__________________
SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064
Reply With Quote
  #444  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:53 PM
OldSarge21's Avatar
OldSarge21 OldSarge21 is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Yooper
Posts: 23
Likes: 3
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
Default

The Really Old Chief's Special Thread-wp_20170318_17_39_09_pro-jpgHondo, thanks a bunch. I just finished reading through this whole string. I wish I had read it before I posted and saved myself some embarrassment. I now fully understand the the I frame vs baby J etc. Mine is a baby J, .38 S&W SPL on right of barrel, early rounded flat latch, serrated ramp. This forum is a great place to hang out and learn. Thanks again.

Last edited by OldSarge21; 03-18-2017 at 08:11 PM. Reason: added pic
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #445  
Old 03-19-2017, 01:35 AM
two-bit cowboy's Avatar
two-bit cowboy two-bit cowboy is offline
US Veteran
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: 7,880' in Wyo.
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 3,637
Liked 2,564 Times in 775 Posts
Default

Welcome aboard from Wyoming, OldSarge21.

That's a dandy looking old Chiefs Special. You've got a great start to your collection. Hang around here and it'll get better by the day.

How are things on the "UP"?

Cheers,

Bob
__________________
rite, right, write! Right?
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #446  
Old 04-05-2017, 09:19 PM
Norris Gibson Norris Gibson is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Kelly View Post
I had a 2 inch RB Chief from 1954 with "Mass. State Police" factory engraved (in script) on the backstrap. Like a fool, I sold it off.
Always seems like a good idea at the time and then you kick yourself for ever. Been there and done that more than once. Seems a man would learn, but no.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #447  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:24 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 2,336
Liked 5,299 Times in 1,129 Posts
Default Addition to the collection!!

Let's bring this thread BTT with a Pennsylvania Railroad Police issued pre 36 (#70354). Circa 1955??

Best,
Charles
Attached Thumbnails
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread-img_2619-jpg   The Really Old Chief's Special Thread-img_2623-jpg   The Really Old Chief's Special Thread-img_2621-jpg  

Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 07-23-2017 at 01:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #448  
Old 07-23-2017, 08:02 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Cool!

Model 0f 1953 NEW J frame (Pre 36).

Yes, most likely Nov, Dec 1955. 2nd style flat latch. 4 screw model.

A little Flitz or Mothers mag wheel polish will do wonders for a the minute scratches in the nickel and not affect value or originality.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 07-23-2017 at 08:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #449  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:23 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 2,336
Liked 5,299 Times in 1,129 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Cool!

Model 0f 1953 NEW J frame (Pre 36).

Yes, most likely Nov, Dec 1955. 2nd style flat latch. 4 screw model.

A little Flitz or Mothers mag wheel polish will do wonders for a the minute scratches in the nickel and not affect value or originality.
Jim,
I was hoping you'd drop by and share your expertise!! What is an approximate value?

Thanks!
Charles
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #450  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:39 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
SWCA Member
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread The Really Old Chief's Special Thread  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 11,118
Likes: 2,935
Liked 6,494 Times in 3,058 Posts
Default

Hard to value one like this.

The bobbed hammer doesn't help the value unless it could be confirmed as a standard procedure for all the RR guns.

No original grips is a downside, but nice pearls have their own value of ~ $200.

It has a niche collectability as a RR gun.

A guess estimate would be $400-$500 to the right buyer. Best possible sale price would be in a GunBroker auction once it's polished up.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
Reply

Tags
327, 642, 686, airweight, checkering, engraved, gunsmith, hammerless, j frame, jinks, k frame, model 40, punta, ribbed, rollmarks, round butt, scsw, serrated, serrations, sideplate, smith & wesson, smith and wesson, snubnose, terrier

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SOLD: S&W Model 36 Chief's Special 3" 38 Special Teddydog GUNS - For Sale or Trade 0 06-11-2015 01:45 AM
Early Chief Special "Baby Chief" Box Questions 05CarbonDRZ S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 34 03-27-2014 01:22 AM
So, you remember the Chief's Chief's Special... squidsix Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols 11 04-12-2012 12:03 AM
The Chief's Chief's Special squidsix S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 27 04-11-2012 07:15 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:07 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)