The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by STORMINORMAN

Thank you, Jim. So, my friend's gun is a Baby Chiefs because of the low S/N, smaller trigger guard, flat cylinder release. It is older than those pictured on posts # 319 and 332.

It is a pre-Model 36 because it is not marked so on the frame at the crane area.

What is a "Baby J"?

Cheers!

The Baby Chiefs introduced the new J size frame, so Baby J is the same thing. They also had the short grip frame of the I frames of that period.

Pre models: please see my next post.

[Hondo44]

model3sw,

1. Look for big changes in the currently being revised SCSW 4th ed. regarding I & J updates. For previews see my commentaries here:

Smith & Wesson Forum - Hondo44

2. Chiefs Special as marketed and written by S&W is plural but not possessive.

3. I don't personally like the term Pre-Model . It's more often used incorrectly.
As Lee Jarrett has posted; "A Model T Ford can be called a pre model Thunderbird, but is it really?"

The definition of 'pre-model' is clearly defined in the N frame HE models from the SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153 but its use in the Glossary Pg. 423 and in the small frame HE sections is inconsistent and contradictory.


PRE MODELS: CLARIFICATION AND CONSISTENCY OF USE

N frames from SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153:

1. Pre-war models up thru 1941
2. Wartime production models
3. Transitional models (post war) 1945-1950
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1950 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.
5. Numbered models June 1957 and up

I & J frames are similar except for:

3. Transitional and early I & J models (post war) 1946-1953
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1953 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.


'Pre model' clarification for I frame posting. What’s a pre model?
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.

So instead of having to say, for example: "I have a gun just like a Model 36 but it's not stamped Mod 36", it was shortened to: "I have a Pre-Mod 36".

That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish what's really being discussed or for sale!

Screw count 6, 5, 4, or 3 screw (depending on the frame size) is further used to distinguish between Pre Models. There is a Pre-Model 36 (Model of 1953) 4 screw and a 3 screw.

I frames are worse; the post war Transitional I frame, Improved I frame and Model of 1953 New I frame are all pre models in a general meaning of the phrase, but ONLY the Mod 1953 in the correct meaning of the Collector term is a true PRE-MODEL. Otherwise the pre-model description is useless, it could be any form of a particular model; Pre-war model up thru 1941, Wartime production model, Transitional model (post war) ~1945-1950, or Improved model (in the case of I frame models).

The SCSW book's own description of "Pre model" Pg. 153 (3rd ed.) as used for the K and N frames conflicts, lacks consistency and creates confusion with its own briefer definition on pg. 423 and its use in regard to the post war I frames in that it lumps some I frame models together as pre-models. This creates a lack of distinguishing between them when they are actually all very different.

Why not just use name or model #?
Just using the name or # exemplifies the problem and the reason for coining the term "pre model" and others in the first place; like transitional, baby J, 5 screw, 4 screw, etc. And other terms needed even after Model #s like 4 screw, 3 screw, pinned and recessed, etc.

The Model name or number does not tell us what we all want to know when discussing these revolvers or plunking down money for them, i.e., exactly which vintage is it???

None of those terms are factory terms and none of us would be satisfied with a description that didn't include them! Would anyone be satisfied with just the model name of or pay the same for any "Model 44 Magnum", the official model name? No! We would want to know if it's a 5 screw or 4 screw?

Or just "Model 38 Chief's Special"? Heck no, we would want to know if it's a baby J, round sight, ramp sight, pre model 1953, pre model 36 4 screw, or pre model 36 3 screw? Or just "Model 36"? No we would want to know if it's a flat latch, diamond grip, pinned barrel, MIM, right? And we would not just be satisfied with the factory dash # because we all know that dash #s are sometimes left off or not always accurate.

There's no rule that anyone has to use any of these collector terms, and use of them requires a correct understanding, especially "pre model", or else they're just confusing.

I hope this proves helpful,

[bmcgilvray]

Well I know I'm confused!

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

model3sw,


There's no rule that anyone has to use any of these collector terms, and use of them requires a correct understanding, especially "pre model", or else they're just confusing.

I hope this proves helpful,

Very much so. Thank you.

[OLDSTER]

What is approximate "release date" for the 4th addition SCSW ?

[JSR III]

Not to be contrary, but merely explaining the thought process.

Gisele Bundchen is or was the highest paid model in the world. One could say that before she began modeling, she was a pre model.

So some would argue that when she was 2 years old, she was a pre model. Others would argue that NO, she was a toddler. At age 5, some would argue that she was an adolescent, others would still say she is a pre model.

No one generally knows the exact date she became a model. You could probably send her a LETTER and request the exact date, but short of that it is generally understood that sometime in her teens 14-16 she started modeling.

So, some folks will say that before she was a teenager around 15ish she was a pre model while others prefer to use terms like toddler, pre adolescent or adolescent.

Or perhaps there are even those that would say she was only a pre model when she was a pre teen????

PS: For those that don't know who Giselle is, she is Tom Brady's wife.
PPS: The dictionary defines "pre" as previous to; before....

[STORMINORMAN]

"So, some folks will say that before she was a teenager around 15ish she was a pre model while others prefer to use terms like toddler, pre adolescent or adolescent."

Talk about being "contradictory and inconsistent"! (Thanks, Hondo44!"

Everyone knows teen models 14-16 are most correctly described as "jail bait"!

Or were you talking about "15ish" Model 14's & Model 16's?

Cheers!

[jackvs1]

Missing the half round nickel "Baby Chief"

[RKmesa]

Thought I throw my one and only Chiefs Special into this thread...

[BenTolson]

Figured I'd add mine to the album... ser. #1668. It's got some wear, but functions flawlessly.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by BenTolson

Figured I'd add mine to the album... ser. #1668. It's got some wear, but functions flawlessly.

Ben,

Welcome to the forum.

That's a beauty. Did someone add the MOP grips?

I ask because after WW II, S&W no longer used medallions in their premium grips. Therefore it's possible the MOP grips are original and would make the gun very scarce, but only a factory historical letter will confirm that.

[BenTolson]

Thanks for the welcome. No idea if the grips are original. However, I do plan to do factory letters on this and a flat latch S&W .32 snubby I picked up from the same estate.

[les.b]

Ben, I echo Jim's welcome. You sure started out with a "bang", if you'll forgive the choice of words! That s a beautiful baby chief that you have there, and with that low serial number, you are the envy of many 'baby chief' admirers here. You will find some of the most knowledgeable smith and Wesson experts in the world on this forum, and the are a friendly and collegial group, ever ready to share with beginner or other experts. You just heard from one of them above (no, not me). Enjoy, and welcome again from West Virginia!!!

[les.b]

Jim, I was just looking at Ben's photo again, and it looks like the rear sideplate screw has a flat head. If this is the original screw, does this indicate that the gun came with magnas? I have never seen the flathead screw used with issue service style stocks, they usually have a rounded head screw.

[gaphair]

Hi just joined. Looking to figure out what year the J Frame Airweight Chiefs Special .38 that my Dad left me is. The original box which I have says "Smith & Wesson 38 Chiefs Special Airweight Blued Round Butt 2 inch". The number on the butt of the gun is 43463 with no letters. There was no model number behind the yoke. It has a hand ejector. It has 5 screws on the right side of the gun, none on the front of the trigger guard under the barrel and no strain screw. Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

[Hondo44]

Welcome aboard the forum.

You have a "Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special Airweight" from ~ Jan 1954, built on the "New" J frame.

It's one of the relatively few with a lock screw on the top side plate screw only seen on alloy frames.

[New2Wesson]

I have a glock 31 (357sig) with trijicon sights and complete ghost 3.5lb trigger and Zev Tec v4 firing pin. Galco royal tuck iwb holster. And 3 mags.
Short story, buddy took me to range to shoot nothing but smiths and now I'm hooked!! I've never shot that good in my life and I've shot many different semi autos and cheap revolvers. I'm in love with smiths now!
He's got a model 36 nickel and it's a no dash. But it's weird because everything I have heard says that if the serial numbers have 3 letters in front of the numbers it has to be a 36-? Something. I want this to be a same value trade. Him and I both don't know anything about smiths. I need help folks. Thanks for your time.

[Hondo44]

New2Wesson,

Welcome to the forum.

Well you didn't say but I'm presuming that the gun you've attached has a 3 letter prefix.

Unfortunately, you've become the victim of a "rule of thumb" that is not accurate:

The 3 letter prefix serial #s began in 1984 on the Model 36.

But the Model 36-1 began in 1967 but only for 3" heavy barrel models.

And the Model 36-2 didn't begin until 1988. So there is 4 years where a 2" Chiefs would have a 3 letter prefix and no dash #.

And now you know the gun was made between 1984 and 1988.

[two-bit cowboy]

I'll take this opportunity to add my baby to the album. sn 11920, smooth ramp front sight, likely spring of '52. Carried by an Alabama LEO back in the day.

The seller and I had a problem known to Cool Hand Luke... as "a failure to communicate." She said the stocks were original to the gun. They're not. She offered to take it back, but by that time this little chief and I had sort of grown on each other. It's stayin' right here, and after talking with Craig Spegel a few days ago, when my number comes up (soon) I hope to have him do something extra special for this little feller.

[bettis1]

Originally Posted by New2Wesson

I have a glock 31 (357sig) with trijicon sights and complete ghost 3.5lb trigger and Zev Tec v4 firing pin. Galco royal tuck iwb holster. And 3 mags.
Short story, buddy took me to range to shoot nothing but smiths and now I'm hooked!! I've never shot that good in my life and I've shot many different semi autos and cheap revolvers. I'm in love with smiths now!
He's got a model 36 nickel and it's a no dash. But it's weird because everything I have heard says that if the serial numbers have 3 letters in front of the numbers it has to be a 36-? Something. I want this to be a same value trade. Him and I both don't know anything about smiths. I need help folks. Thanks for your time.

New2Wesson,

Both of the handguns that you are talking about are fine arms but it is hard to think of two others which would be so different. Beside the obvious points that one is a revolver and the other a pistol with their completely different manuals of arms, they have different primary uses. One is more capable for concealed carry, the other for exposed carry. The recoil and terminal energy of the two are at opposite extremes as is the cost and availability of the ammo.

Depending upon a number of their variables which you haven't listed, the two handguns have essentially the same basic cost. Since they are so different in so many ways, each of you will be happy if your choice fits your needs.

Bob

[Malysh]

I have always disliked, and avoided the term pre model.

I'd take Tom Brady's ex girl friend Bridget Moynahan over Gisele Bundchen any day of the week

[New2Wesson]

Holy smokes thanks for the input.. so what I'm gathering is that since it's AEY4931, this guy's model 36, should be a 36 dash something right? He said there is no dash, does that mean it was replaced ?

[New2Wesson]

Never mind on that comment lol

[New2Wesson]

I understand the purpose for both tools, I just didn't want to trade a newer hammer for An old hammer unless it's of the same value, that's what it boils down too in this trade. I'm gonna hold out until another old smith or any smith comes my way. I'm so upset I didn't discover them sooner, I'm sure I've passed up a few and had no idea lol

[Roadie04]

I am new to the forum but I believe I have one of these guns I inherited from my Dad. it has a number on but of gun- 8397. any info on what I have would be appreciated.DSC03657.jpg

DSC03660.jpg

DSC03664.jpg

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by New2Wesson

Holy smokes thanks for the input.. so what I'm gathering is that since it's AEY4931, this guy's model 36, should be a 36 dash something right? He said there is no dash, does that mean it was replaced ?

No, please read again:

"The 3 letter prefix serial #s began in 1984 on the Model 36.

But the Model 36-1 began in 1967 but only for 3" heavy barrel models.

And the Model 36-2 didn't begin until 1988. So there is 4 years where a 2" Chiefs would have a 3 letter prefix and no dash #."

The 2" barrel version Chiefs went from Model 36 pre dash to Model 36-2 in 1988, four year after the 3 Letter prefix began 1984. There were no 36-1 Chiefs made with 2" barrel.
# AEY4931 was made in 1984.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Roadie04

I am new to the forum but I believe I have one of these guns I inherited from my Dad. it has a number on but of gun- 8397. any info on what I have would be appreciated.Attachment 266430

Attachment 266431

Attachment 266432

You have a ".38 Chiefs Special" built on the first J frame and introduced in 1950. Yours is a later version with the new ribbed barrel and ramp front sight, most likely shipped in the first half of 1952. These are known by collectors and forum members as the "Baby Chiefs" and Baby J frame".

It was replaced by the Model of 1953 New J frame, ".38 Chiefs Special" and went on to become named the Model 36 in mid-1957.

[Roadie04]

Will regular j frame grips fit the baby chiefs special? any grips for sale out there?

[Dvan34]

My first pistol, apart from the Colt.38 spl which the Border Patrol issued. Bought one in El Paso, Texas in 1955 for off duty and undercover carry. At that time the prices were unbelievable. Unfortunately my wife was much better with it than I was.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Roadie04

Will regular j frame grips fit the baby chiefs special? any grips for sale out there?

No, Pre 1953 I frame grips back to 1896 are the same size and interchange with Baby Chiefs.

"Regular" J frame grips are Model of 1953 and later, and are the same size and will interchange with Model of 1953 I frames.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by Malysh

I have always disliked, and avoided the term pre model.

I'd take Tom Brady's ex girl friend Bridget Moynahan over Gisele Bundchen any day of the week

Hmmm. The actress vs. the retired model and fashion entrepreneur! Gisele is loyal, witty, a Brazilian national heroine asked to walk in the last Olympics as such, and a talented raconteur as a talk show guest.


All I really know of Bridget is her work on, Blue Bloods, where she reminds me of the mom she plays and maybe a school teacher or the asst. DA she plays. She actually looks a lot like my first college Journalism teacher, who was very good at her job.


I know that both Bridget and Giselle modeled, and once they had their first jobs, wouldn't be "pre-models", ha! So, is a "pre-model" a girl who aspires to model?


As for the guns, I think the men should keep what they have and shop elsewhere for types they want. Both have essentially defense guns, but one is a concealed specialty type. I'd psss on it and look for a Model 60-7 in that role.


Or, if this fellow new to revolvers just wants a good S&W, buy a nice used M-64, or opt for .357 power and get M-66.


The old Chiefs Special doesn't have the same primary defense/battle role of the Glock.

[Captain1959]

Hello,, I was hoping someone could tell me the age of this one?
It belonged to my dad,, it's a model 36 and has No dash- after the 36, from what I have learned, apparently no dash represents an earlier model?.. He had this for as long as I can remember,, I just never remembered the exact details? the sn is 44135xx
thanks a lot..

[Malysh]

All I care about is that I find Bridget Moynahan more attractive. That's it.

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Hmmm. The actress vs. the retired model and fashion entrepreneur! Gisele is loyal, witty, a Brazilian national heroine asked to walk in the last Olympics as such, and a talented raconteur as a talk show guest.


All I really know of Bridget is her work on, Blue Bloods, where she reminds me of the mom she plays and maybe a school teacher or the asst. DA she plays. She actually looks a lot like my first college Journalism teacher, who was very good at her job.


I know that both Bridget and Giselle modeled, and once they had their first jobs, wouldn't be "pre-models", ha! So, is a "pre-model" a girl who aspires to model?


As for the guns, I think the men should keep what they have and shop elsewhere for types they want. Both have essentially defense guns, but one is a concealed specialty type. I'd psss on it and look for a Model 60-7 in that role.


Or, if this fellow new to revolvers just wants a good S&W, buy a nice used M-64, or opt for .357 power and get M-66.


The old Chiefs Special doesn't have the same primary defense/battle role of the Glock.

[two-bit cowboy]

Originally Posted by Captain1959

the sn is 44135xx

Welcome aboard. Nice looking little chiefs special.

I'll make two guesses. The first is that you added one too many x's. If your dad's 36 is sn44135x then I'd guess it came from between 1966 and 1967.

Cheers,

Bob

[shamuscull]

Just picked up a early Chief 5 screw 4 digit serial 71xx. Found out year was 1950-52 but was wondering which flat latch it should have. Gun also has smooth ramped front sight. Currently has newer style latch.

[Hondo44]

The "newer style latch" as you describe it was actually used on the first approximately 100 Chiefs (the Baby Chiefs). It has also been observed as original on a few higher numbered guns like yours.

Some guns in the 7XXX serial range actually shipped earlier than lower numbered guns such as:

322X……shipped in December 1953.
46xx……shipped in Dec '54.

Obviously, there was little correlation between s/n and shipping dates.

My point is, your latch could be original. For one thing, to change the latch from a flat latch to a new style, the gun must be disassembled and the locking bolt that the latch attaches to must also be changed. The latches attach with different type screws.

So it's not a 5 minute job, but it could have been changed, there's just no way to know for sure unless the gun is owned by the original owner.

To answer your question, most Baby Chiefs 5 screw guns came with the 1st style flat latch until the 2nd style flat latch began to show up sporadically in the 25XXX serial Range:

1st style flat latch used only on the Baby J frame and K frame airweights:


Photo by jackvs1


2nd style flat latch began on the Improved I frames, Baby Js and K frame airweights just prior to the Models of 1953 New J frame shown here:

[shamuscull]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The "newer style latch" as you describe it was actually used on the first approximately 100 Chiefs (the Baby Chiefs). It has also been observed as original on a few higher numbered guns like yours.

Some guns in the 7XXX serial range actually shipped earlier than lower numbered guns such as:

322X……shipped in December 1953.
46xx……shipped in Dec '54.

Obviously, there was little correlation between s/n and shipping dates.

My point is, your latch could be original. For one thing, to change the latch from a flat latch to a new style, the gun must be disassembled and the locking bolt that the latch attaches to must also be changed. The latches attach with different type screws.

So it's not a 5 minute job, but it could have been changed, there's just no way to know for sure unless the gun is owned by the original owner.

To answer your question, most Baby Chiefs 5 screw guns came with the 1st style flat latch until the 2nd style flat latch began to show up sporadically in the 25XXX serial Range:

1st style flat latch used only on the Baby J frame and K frame airweights:


Photo by jackvs1


2nd style flat latch began on the Improved I frames, Baby Js and K frame airweights just prior to the Models of 1953 New J frame shown here:

Thank you. I think it is an old NYPD gun so I would not be surprised if is was changed at their range for some reason

[Hondo44]

It's certainly possible, many considered the 1st flat latch less ergonomic to the later style.

[les.b]

Jim:

Just for information, my smooth ramp Baby Chief has a serial of 10,6xx, and shipped in May of 1952, before the two much lower serial number examples you cite above! It has, I believe, the first style thumb latch. I have a bunch of photos available, taken by the forum member who sold it to me, who is a much better photographer than I. I just have not uploaded them to photobucket yet.

Best Regards, Les

[two-bit cowboy]

Originally Posted by raljr1

so I'm jumping in late to this and haven't read everything, but a local dealer told me he has a very nice 36 no dash for $600. Is that worth a 30 minute drive to look at?

Come on. Really? Maybe you should have "read everything." A Model 36 doesn't really fit here -- far too new. I really don't intend to be sarcastic, but... you have too many posts to....

Bob

[raljr1]

Originally Posted by two-bit cowboy

Come on. Really? Maybe you should have "read everything." A Model 36 doesn't really fit here -- far too new. I really don't intend to be sarcastic, but... you have too many posts to....

Bob

Chastisement taken, post deleted

[two-bit cowboy]

Originally Posted by raljr1

Chastisement taken, post deleted

Wow, I have thought about this all day. I screwed up.

I am very sorry for posting my criticism of raljr!'s post.

I offer no justifications or rationalizations for my words, but I was wrong.

No lives were threatened.

I'll make every attempt in the future to behave. I've sent my most heartfelt apologies to raljr1, and I'll make every attempt in the future to avoid the need for such apologies.

With all due respect,

Bob

[HeyJoe]

we all have our moments.....very stand up of you to apologize

[raljr1]

Bob and I are fine...no offense was taken and I intended my reply to be somewhat tongue in cheek. My first post was in fact off topic.

[Lngstrt]

My Dad had this Smith for as long as I can remember. He always thought it was "something odd" but never really figured out why. He seemed to think it was a Chief on an 'I' frame.
....And the front sight is different than I see on the pics on-line. Any help would .... help!

[model3sw]

Originally Posted by Lngstrt

My Dad had this Smith for as long as I can remember. He always thought it was "something odd" but never really figured out why. He seemed to think it was a Chief on an 'I' frame.
....And the front sight is different than I see on the pics on-line. Any help would .... help!

That's a sweet one. I think it is worth a letter from Roy Jinks. It's probably about 1952 (or near there) manufacture.

This is what became known as the "baby chief" that if I remember correctly is an "improved I-frame" or very early " J " frame and not yet quite a " J " frame as we know it now.

The manner that the front sight is trimmed seems to be what used to be called a USRA type front sight pattern, odd as it is on a non target sighted gun is a very nice touch. It would be nice to know if the front sight was done at the factory or not. A wonderful keepsake.

[bettis1]

Longstreet,

Very interesting gun (front sight) that does deserve a letter.

Excellent photography!

Bob

[Lngstrt]

Originally Posted by model3sw

It would be nice to know if the front sight was done at the factory or not. A wonderful keepsake.

Thanks for the info. I am sorry but ... Roy Jinks is ...?

I remember Dad having this as far back as ... 1970 (?) before we moved from Philly to Tulsa.
I do not remember him ever firing it in my presence.

Dad passed last year and I'm suddenly a S&W and Ruger collector

10 Smiths and 23 Rugers!! And a few other things .... Might have to thin some of the herd.

[Lngstrt]

Originally Posted by bettis1

Longstreet,

Very interesting gun (front sight) that does deserve a letter.

Excellent photography!

Bob

Thank you.

Can't quite tell if it's factory .... looks like it is 'blued' a little differently.

[Hondo44]

You have what's known by collectors as a "Baby J frame". It was introduced in 1950 with a 1/2 round front sight. They have the smaller grip frame size of the I frame of the time, but it's longer cyl window for the 38 Spl makes it a J frame.

Yours is the 2nd variation with barrel rib and ramp front sight. The ramp has been reshaped. That's the only difference from a standard Baby J frame. Based on its serial #6795 it's from the last half of 1952. It's in beautiful condition although the modified sight hurts the value but as an heirloom from your dad, it's priceless anyway!

You can read much more detail about early Chiefs in my commentary here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=104