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03-03-2017, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
the modified sight hurts the value but as an heirloom from your dad, it's priceless anyway!
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Thanks for the info and the link.
So we are assuming it has been 'modified' sometime after it left S&W. I know Dad wasn't the type to do that to a firearm. "If you can't return it to stock, don't do it." ....... to guns or cars! Must have been done by the previous owner.
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03-03-2017, 11:38 PM
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Keeping the thread alive, here is #71xxx from 1955:
Could the MOP stocks be "factory"?
Best,
Charles
Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 03-04-2017 at 05:21 PM.
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03-04-2017, 04:47 AM
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Charles, that's a beauty.
Have you checked the back of the right side grip panel for a matching # to the gun? They could be factory. Factory premium grips did not have S&W monogram medallions after the war.
It's now the latest Model of 1953 Chiefs Special with old style hammer and 4 screw side plate in my database.
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03-04-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lngstrt
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I kind of like just looking at that front sight. It may not be factory, but perhaps it should have been. Sleek and elegant it is.
Resembles a mini Colt New Service "shark fin" front sight, but with a ramp.
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03-04-2017, 08:41 PM
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pre-model 36 with serial number 39503...
Last edited by LOBO; 07-24-2017 at 06:10 AM.
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03-04-2017, 09:14 PM
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LOBO,
That's a sweetheart, love those India Sambar Stag grips! I think I see a small little red sight insert, very tasteful.
You have a 2nd variation Baby J Frame Chiefs, 5 screw. It actually pre-dates the Pre model 36 which is the Model of 1953 with 4 or 3 screws. You could say you have a Pre Model 1953 though.
I would put your #39503 as shipping in the last half of 1954.
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03-04-2017, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
LOBO,
That's a sweetheart, love those India Sambar Stag grips! I think I see a small little red sight insert, very tasteful.
You have a 2nd variation Baby J Frame Chiefs, 5 screw. It actually pre-dates the Pre model 36 which is the Model of 1953 with 4 or 3 screws. You could say you have a Pre Model 1953 though.
I would put your #39503 as shipping in the last half of 1954.
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Thank you for all of that great info! I really do appreciate it.
Good eye! It's a little bit of red paint that was put on there by a previous owner. It works just as good as an insert though
I've often wondered how old the stags are?
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03-04-2017, 10:09 PM
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Those stags are as old as that gun. I can't see the other side. But the dull stag could be from a left handed shooter or was holstered next to the body and absorbed a lot of sweat.
Either way they'll shine like new with a little polishing. Sand with 1000 grit paper, 1500, and end up with 2000 grit. A light buffing after that and they'll gleam like they were new; like porcelain.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-04-2017 at 10:10 PM.
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03-05-2017, 10:48 AM
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What Jim said about cleaning your grips is very well true, but I would caution you to pause and give it some thought before you move forward. Much of the beauty (and value) of old stag, ivory, or bone grips is in the age patina that they gain from use as the years stretch into decades and centuries.
Your grips are beautiful and their color is a part of their history just as the finish on the revolver is.
Bob
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03-05-2017, 04:35 PM
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I really like the used/aged look to the grips. It just adds to the gun I believe. I wondered about the left hand shooter aspect too since the left side is decidedly more aged than the right.
Here is a set of pics showing both sides,
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03-06-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOBO
I really like the used/aged look to the grips. It just adds to the gun I believe. I wondered about the left hand shooter aspect too since the left side is decidedly more aged than the right.
Here is a set of pics showing both sides,
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I agree, especially on a gun with a little honest ware on it.
Interesting about the amount of difference in the color between the left and right side.
Sweet little piece.
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03-06-2017, 08:44 AM
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It is hard to reconcile the difference in color of the two halves. The difference is greater than I would expect from simply carrying on one side. Perhaps the gun has laid on one side exposed to the sun or the dark side was lying on an oily rag. Another possibility is that one side has already been cleaned. A look at the inner surface of both grips might give us a better guess.
I do note that the picture of the right side seems to be more overexposed (based on the background) than the left side picture is.
Bob
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03-06-2017, 02:16 PM
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Here some new pics. They are untouched except for cropping,
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03-06-2017, 02:41 PM
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Actually the right side looks sanded!
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03-06-2017, 02:46 PM
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I agree with Jim. The right grip seems to have a matte finish indicating that it has been lightly sanded and the left side has a shiney finish. I see no difference on the insides of the grips which also lends credibility to the "sanding" theory.
Bob
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03-06-2017, 07:02 PM
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Sanding sounds like a reasonable explanation . Really to bad, IMO the honey coloring really adds to the over all look of this gun.
Not that the White looks bad by any means, just a matter of degree of beauty and personal tastes.
Last edited by Raydog; 03-06-2017 at 07:07 PM.
Reason: Added thought.
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03-06-2017, 09:19 PM
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I like 'em regardless as they came with the gun I appreciate the info all!
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03-06-2017, 09:25 PM
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Stags are making a come back it seems. Either you love them or you don't. Same with pearls.
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03-08-2017, 12:27 AM
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Add these two to the mix:
1) Model 36 no dash #183xxx
2) Model 37 no dash #218xxx
Best,
Charles
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03-08-2017, 01:09 AM
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Top gun is 1960-61.
Airweight is 1961, clearly before 1967 because the flat latch was phased out in 1966.
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03-08-2017, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Top gun is 1960-61.
Airweight is 1961, clearly before 1967 because the flat latch was phased out in 1966.
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Thank you, Jim!!
Best,
Charles
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03-08-2017, 11:17 PM
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I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:
16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame
But I still need a 3" barrel version...
Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
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03-09-2017, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiskerchew
I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:
16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame
But I still need a 3" barrel version...
Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
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if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
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03-09-2017, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
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Negative.
Baby Chief's are improved I frame. Hence the name.
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03-09-2017, 10:47 AM
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In response to some of the above posts, I think that much of this has been covered elsewhere in this thread, but.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiskerchew
I need to get some pictures up. I have a evolution set consisting of:
16xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
19xx Moon - early flat latch, I frame
109xx smooth ramp - early flat latch, I frame
118xx smooth ramp - early flati latch, I frame
355xx serrated ramp - early flat latch, I frame
2424xx serrated ramp - flared flat latch J frame
Yeah, I got it BAD!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe
if they are 38 specials then they are all J frames
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23
Negative.
Baby Chief's are improved I frame. Hence the name.
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Well......
Hondo44 has the most definitive explanation of the Baby Chiefs, but I'll take a stab at it. The very first Chiefs Special does indeed have the grip of the Inproved I frame (at least the one which was being used at the time the Chiefs was introduced) so in that respect it appears much as the Improved I, but it is still a "J" frame, as the cylinder window has been lengthened to accommodate the longer cylinder necessary to use the longer .38 Special cartridge. So HeyJoe is correct, if they are 38 Specials, they are J frames.
Leatherhead23 is partly correct in that the Baby Chiefs are similar to the Improved I frame, in that they have the smaller grip section. If you put an early fifties Terrier (38 S&W CTG) alongside a Baby Chiefs (38 Special CTG) you will see that while the grip area is identical, the frame is slightly longer to accommodate the longer cylinder.
Here are two Terriers, both on the Improved I frame, top one is from April 1952, and the bottom from September of 1954:
Here is my smooth ramp Baby Chief from May of 1952:
So if you look at the top Terrier, and the Chiefs Special, they were shipped within a month of each other. Note the longer cylinder of the Chiefs Special. But, they have the same length of grip profile. One is an Improved I, and the other a "baby' J. If you look at the two Terriers together, though, you will see that the bottom has a longer grip area that the top!!
Please see Hondo44's thread on this confusing subject, or if you have the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson, 4th ed., You can read some of his information under his name, Jim Carter. He has a wealth of data on these fascinating little gems.
Best Regards, Les
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Last edited by les.b; 07-23-2017 at 04:00 PM.
Reason: Add Photos (Delete photobucket and replace with forum photos)
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03-09-2017, 12:54 PM
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All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...
As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.
I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....
Improved I frame for the win!
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03-09-2017, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23
All I know is I've been harshly corrected in the past for calling a Baby Chief a J frame...
As long as that grip is shorter it's an improved I frame.
I mean...the grip is still part of the frame, no? And my other J frame stocks won't fit it...so....
Improved I frame for the win!
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the cylinder window is part of the frame also and the overall frame itself is longer in the baby chiefs than the i frame.
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03-09-2017, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe
the cylinder window is part of the frame also and the overall frame itself is longer in the baby chiefs than the i frame.
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Correct.....that's why it is considered an 'Improved I frame'
Not quite the J yet.....
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03-10-2017, 03:08 PM
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From page 8 of this thread. Baby Chiefs are J frames
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
You have what's known by collectors as a "Baby J frame". It was introduced in 1950 with a 1/2 round front sight. They have the smaller grip frame size of the I frame of the time, but it's longer cyl window for the 38 Spl makes it a J frame.
Yours is the 2nd variation with barrel rib and ramp front sight. The ramp has been reshaped. That's the only difference from a standard Baby J frame. Based on its serial #6795 it's from the last half of 1952. It's in beautiful condition although the modified sight hurts the value but as an heirloom from your dad, it's priceless anyway!
You can read much more detail about early Chiefs in my commentary here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=104
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03-10-2017, 04:23 PM
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IIRC the original I frame had a leaf mainspring (Shown left below) where the improved I frame had a coil mainspring (shown right below without strain screw).
The J frame was introduced with a coil mainspring and had a bigger cylinder window and associated longer cylinder ,
If you focus on the distance from the front of the trigger guard to the edge of the frame in the picture below you will notice is longer on the J frame (top gun) than on the I frame pictured below it:
Terriers and Kit guns were originally built on I frames but changed to being made on J frames at some point.
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03-10-2017, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe
From page 8 of this thread. Baby Chiefs are J frames
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I'm about to order some stocks for my Baby Chief.....
Which size do I order?
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03-10-2017, 11:49 PM
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It's all explained in the last post i made which included a quote from Hondo 44. But you knew that when you just made your post. You seem to be the type that when in error refuses to acknowledge the point. If you think you know more than Hondo 44 about baby chiefs good luck to you. At this point you are just embarrassing yourself.
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03-11-2017, 10:41 AM
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Haha..nah...just proving that they are not simply a J frame.
They aren't an I frame either.
Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame
Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.
That shorter grip frame is still important.
I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.
-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame
^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
Last edited by Leatherhead23; 03-11-2017 at 11:01 AM.
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03-11-2017, 07:25 PM
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another post on the subject on page 2 of this thread, this time by Handejector
Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector
An interesting thread.
It is a really good chance to learn much about early Chief's.
For several decades, many have referred to the early Chief's that have the short grips and small trigger guards as the "Baby Chief".
I can address a few points:
Remember- NO Chief's Special is built on the I frame. The I frame cyl is too short to accept a 38 Spec.
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Last edited by HeyJoe; 03-13-2017 at 02:23 PM.
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03-11-2017, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJoe
anther post on the subject on page 2 of this thread, this time by Handejector
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Are you not even reading what you're posting?
My last post on this silly argument....
I agree with the referenced post by Handejector's...the Baby Chief's are NOT an I frame.
They are also....NOT a J frame.
They are an Improved I frame. AKA Baby J frame.
Three different frame sizes...I, Improved I, and J.
The faster you learn this, the better collector you be because you can inform others correctly.
Nice chatting with you.
P.S....I find it odd that you use other people's word for YOUR side of the argument. I speak for myself.
Last edited by Leatherhead23; 03-11-2017 at 09:36 PM.
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03-11-2017, 09:43 PM
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I quote them because they know much more on the subject than I do and i defer to their expertise in that area. If you read Handejectors full post on the second page you will see that he is answering someone who had said that Baby Chiefs are improved I frames.
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03-13-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23
Haha..nah...just proving that they are not simply a J frame.
They aren't an I frame either.
Improved I frame Or... Baby J frame
Until Hondo decides to tell me I'm wrong....I'll continue to interpret his words correctly describing a Baby J frame being different than a J frame.
That shorter grip frame is still important.
I doubt he will though....I'm kinda making sense.
-I frame
-Improved I frame (Baby J)
-J frame
^^^^^^all different frame sizes.
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Leatherhead23,
The convoluted I and J frame evolution of the 1950s lacked research and correct documentation in the books for many years and that caused confusion.
There are three I frame variations and two frame sizes, (because 1 & 2 are the same size, just different mainsprings):
1. Pre war and Post war Transitional with leaf spring
2. Improved I with coil spring
3. Model 1953 NEW I frame forging
And 2 J frame size variations, but both have the same cyl window size:
Baby J
Model of 1953 NEW J frame forging
All vintages of J frames have an 1/8" longer cyl window than I frames, which determines them to be J frames. Neither trigger guard size nor grip frame length determine the frame size.
So there are two I and J frame grip frame sizes:
Pre model 1953 Transitional and Improved I frames, and Baby J frames have the same size grip frame lengths and grips interchange, (and same small trigger guards).
Model of 1953 NEW I frames and NEW J frames forging, again both have the same NEW 1/8" longer grip frame length, and larger egg shaped trigger guards. Since these grip frames are the same size, grips will also interchange.
I hope this is helpful,
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-13-2017 at 01:39 PM.
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03-14-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Leatherhead23,
The convoluted I and J frame evolution of the 1950s lacked research and correct documentation in the books for many years and that caused confusion.
There are three I frame variations and two frame sizes, (because 1 & 2 are the same size, just different mainsprings):
1. Pre war and Post war Transitional with leaf spring
2. Improved I with coil spring
3. Model 1953 NEW I frame forging
And 2 J frame size variations, but both have the same cyl window size:
Baby J
Model of 1953 NEW J frame forging
All vintages of J frames have an 1/8" longer cyl window than I frames, which determines them to be J frames. Neither trigger guard size nor grip frame length determine the frame size.
So there are two I and J frame grip frame sizes:
Pre model 1953 Transitional and Improved I frames, and Baby J frames have the same size grip frame lengths and grips interchange, (and same small trigger guards).
Model of 1953 NEW I frames and NEW J frames forging, again both have the same NEW 1/8" longer grip frame length, and larger egg shaped trigger guards. Since these grip frames are the same size, grips will also interchange.
I hope this is helpful,
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Well since it's so easy to understand and all.....sheesh. Thanks S&W. Lol
I'll stick to my K and N frames and stop trying to understand several frame sizes all being called the same thing.
Thanks for stepping in. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was just having fun debating.....I'd debate that the sky is red if I get the chance....
HeyJoe....you're right. But I guess you knew that.
I'll go back to just posting pictures and stay out if the S&W deciphering department.
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03-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leatherhead23
Well since it's so easy to understand and all.....sheesh. Thanks S&W. Lol
I'll stick to my K and N frames and stop trying to understand several frame sizes all being called the same thing.
Thanks for stepping in. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. I was just having fun debating.....I'd debate that the sky is red if I get the chance....
HeyJoe....you're right. But I guess you knew that.
I'll go back to just posting pictures and stay out if the S&W deciphering department.
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It seems there's very little about S&Ws to understand easily, and there's absolutely no more complicated frame size than the I frames and the J frames to figure out. There's now 3 different J frame sizes, Baby J, 1953 J, and the relatively recent J Magnum frame. And of course the 3 I frames.
We've all learned a lot from this forum, and once we do, we can help others, which you have the disposition to do. So don't give up now that you can advise/debate from a more informed position.
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Jim
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03-14-2017, 11:17 PM
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I had the fortune to pick up an early 4-digit S/N Baby Chief from a long time S&W collector a few years back. Was most likely shipped in 1952. The gun is near mint and the only thing that could make it better would be if it had the box!
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Last edited by THREEDFLYER; 03-14-2017 at 11:19 PM.
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03-18-2017, 07:06 PM
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I picked up a really neat little Pre-36 Chief today. Flat latch, round butt, 5 shot. Unfortunately it has later stocks on it but it shoots really well. Bluing is starting to plum a little but it is a shooter. 5 screw. Not sure but it think it is a I frame although the J frame stocks fit ok. Ser #296XX.
I'm new to the forum and don't know how to post pics yet. Sorry. When I figure it out I will post.
Am kind of new to collecting S&W revolvers but currently have 5: 4" Nickel 29-3, 6.5" SS 629-6, 6" Blue 586-1, 4" SS 64-5, Pre-36 Chief Special.
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03-18-2017, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSarge21
I picked up a really neat little Pre-36 Chief today. Flat latch, round butt, 5 shot. Unfortunately it has later stocks on it but it shoots really well. Bluing is starting to plum a little but it is a shooter. 5 screw. Not sure but it think it is a I frame although the J frame stocks fit ok. Ser #296XX.
I'm new to the forum and don't know how to post pics yet. Sorry. When I figure it out I will post.
Am kind of new to collecting S&W revolvers but currently have 5: 4" Nickel 29-3, 6.5" SS 629-6, 6" Blue 586-1, 4" SS 64-5, Pre-36 Chief Special.
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Welcome to the forum OldSarge.
If your gun chambers 38 S&W Special cartridges, it can't be an I frame. See post #437 above.
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Jim
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03-18-2017, 07:38 PM
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OldSarge21:
Welcome to the forum, and the wonderful world of Smith and Wessons!! I sure hope that you enjoy this forum as much as we do!!! I'm sure that you will.
We'll be watching for your photos...
Best Regards, Les
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03-18-2017, 07:53 PM
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WP_20170318_17_39_09_Pro.jpgHondo, thanks a bunch. I just finished reading through this whole string. I wish I had read it before I posted and saved myself some embarrassment. I now fully understand the the I frame vs baby J etc. Mine is a baby J, .38 S&W SPL on right of barrel, early rounded flat latch, serrated ramp. This forum is a great place to hang out and learn. Thanks again.
Last edited by OldSarge21; 03-18-2017 at 08:11 PM.
Reason: added pic
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03-19-2017, 01:35 AM
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Welcome aboard from Wyoming, OldSarge21.
That's a dandy looking old Chiefs Special. You've got a great start to your collection. Hang around here and it'll get better by the day.
How are things on the "UP"?
Cheers,
Bob
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Bob
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04-05-2017, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Kelly
I had a 2 inch RB Chief from 1954 with "Mass. State Police" factory engraved (in script) on the backstrap. Like a fool, I sold it off.
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Always seems like a good idea at the time and then you kick yourself for ever. Been there and done that more than once. Seems a man would learn, but no.
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07-23-2017, 01:24 PM
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Addition to the collection!!
Let's bring this thread BTT with a Pennsylvania Railroad Police issued pre 36 (#70354). Circa 1955??
Best,
Charles
Last edited by policerevolvercollector; 07-23-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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07-23-2017, 08:02 PM
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Cool!
Model 0f 1953 NEW J frame (Pre 36).
Yes, most likely Nov, Dec 1955. 2nd style flat latch. 4 screw model.
A little Flitz or Mothers mag wheel polish will do wonders for a the minute scratches in the nickel and not affect value or originality.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 07-23-2017 at 08:05 PM.
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07-23-2017, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Cool!
Model 0f 1953 NEW J frame (Pre 36).
Yes, most likely Nov, Dec 1955. 2nd style flat latch. 4 screw model.
A little Flitz or Mothers mag wheel polish will do wonders for a the minute scratches in the nickel and not affect value or originality.
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Jim,
I was hoping you'd drop by and share your expertise!! What is an approximate value?
Thanks!
Charles
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07-23-2017, 10:39 PM
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Hard to value one like this.
The bobbed hammer doesn't help the value unless it could be confirmed as a standard procedure for all the RR guns.
No original grips is a downside, but nice pearls have their own value of ~ $200.
It has a niche collectability as a RR gun.
A guess estimate would be $400-$500 to the right buyer. Best possible sale price would be in a GunBroker auction once it's polished up.
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Jim
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Tags
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327, 642, 686, airweight, checkering, engraved, gunsmith, hammerless, j frame, jinks, k frame, model 40, punta, ribbed, rollmarks, round butt, scsw, serrated, serrations, sideplate, smith & wesson, smith and wesson, snubnose, terrier |
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