.38 Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change Target

whelenshooter · #1 06-28-2009, 07:57 PM

I just lucked into a 6-inch barreled 38 M&P Model of 1905 4th Change Target (sn: 636xxx) in 90% plus condition! The bore and inside of the cylinder are perfect, but there are a few scratches on the grip frame and around the cylinder latch. The grips are in very good shape and serial numbered to the gun. I've seen a number of fixed sight Model of 1905 4th Change before, but this is the first target model I've ever actually put my hands on. Can any of you guys out there tell me how common the target models are? What is the ratio of target models to fixed sight models? I wasn't sure exactly what model it was when I saw it, but I knew it was worth more than the $375.00 the guy was asking for it, so I snapped it right up. Can anyone tell me the approximate date of production and approximate value? This gun looks good enough I think I should get it lettered.

mikepriwer · #2 06-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

This gun looks good enough I think I should get it lettered.

The gun is about 1930 or 1931, or so. The serial numbers vs shipping dates are a
bit funky in this serial number range. I would guess the gun to be in the $500 to
$600 range, depending on what the condition really is, and the particular market area.

Usually, our decision to get a letter is not influenced by the condition of the gun.

Later, Mike Priwer

JayCeeNC · #3 06-28-2009, 09:27 PM

Congrats on a great catch!
I have the same model, serial# 636389, which shipped in 1931. I haven't lettered it to get an exact date, but that should put you in the ballpark.

whelenshooter · #4 06-28-2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Usually, our decision to get a letter is not influenced by the condition of the gun.

Later, Mike Priwer

I guess I misspoke a bit; what I really meant to say was that this looks like a really cool gun and it doesn't seem to me to be very common, so I thought I'd spend the money to get it lettered. I'd like to know more about this gun and to where it was originally shipped.

With a handgun of this age it would really be neat to know the places it has been and the things it has seen. I'm pretty excited about it! I think if I ever get to where I don't get excited about a new gun I'll quit buying them.

I'll post a photo of it later this week. Right now it is in a million parts on my work bench. I always like to take a used gun apart, give it a thorough cleaning, and make sure all the parts are in good shape. They usually clean easier if I let them sit soaking in Break-Free CLP for a couple of days, so I won't get it back together until later this week.

Thank you for the approximate date of manufacture and value!

JayCeeNC,
Is your gun a target model too?

JayCeeNC · #5 06-28-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whelenshooter

JayCeeNC,
Is your gun a target model too?

Yes, here's a picture:

RKmesa · #6 06-29-2009, 12:17 AM

John:

That is a great photo of a beautiful pre-war target model 38. I'm still looking for a collector quality one to add to my shooter version...

mikepriwer · #7 06-29-2009, 10:53 AM

It can be important, to get a letter. There are roughly one million pre-WW2 K-frames.
No one knows the number of targets, but an estimate of 10% is not unreasonable.
So that is about 100,000 target revolvers.

The point is that the vast majority of those were shipped to distributors or dealers.
Maybe only 2 or 3% were shipped to individuals. No one knows the exact numbers, but
any reasonable assumption indicates that relatively few were shipped to individuals.

So -a letter will typically indicate that the revolver was shipped to a dealer, on a
certain date, and that is pretty much the end of the provenance.

If you get lucky, the gun will have been shipped to an individual, and that is the
reason why it can be important to get a letter.

Later, Mike Priwer

Vulcan Bob · #8 06-29-2009, 03:21 PM

Looks like a nice find! Must be the week for it as I found a near twin last Saturday. I think mine is of 1927 vintage. I'll post a few pics. Let us know how she shoots!

Walter Rego · #9 06-29-2009, 09:55 PM

Mike, I have a .38 M&P Target in the 561,000 range that shipped in 1927. It lettered as having shipped to an individual "C/O the Fred Harvey Lunch Room" in Seligman, AZ. It was pretty easy to figure out that the Fred Harvey Lunch Room was at one of the famous Harvey Houses at the Seligman train station. I have often wondered about the person who would have specially ordered a Target revolver in a still fairly "wild west" place and time. Maybe he was a chef or manager who liked to target shoot, or maybe that was just the location that Railway Express shipments were dropped off for local residents. Unfortunately I only have his first two initials and a very common last name and have not been able to find out anything on the owner. Yes, I'd spend the $50 and letter it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

It can be important, to get a letter. There are roughly one million pre-WW2 K-frames.
No one knows the number of targets, but an estimate of 10% is not unreasonable.
So that is about 100,000 target revolvers.

The point is that the vast majority of those were shipped to distributors or dealers.
Maybe only 2 or 3% were shipped to individuals. No one knows the exact numbers, but
any reasonable assumption indicates that relatively few were shipped to individuals.

So -a letter will typically indicate that the revolver was shipped to a dealer, on a
certain date, and that is pretty much the end of the provenance.

If you get lucky, the gun will have been shipped to an individual, and that is the
reason why it can be important to get a letter.

Later, Mike Priwer

Gatorbaiter · #10 06-30-2009, 11:39 PM

Two 32-20 HE Targets. Roy Jinks states in the letter for one of them that approximately 10% of the Hand Ejectors were Target Models.

wbraswell · #11 07-01-2009, 01:38 PM

I am soooo jealous. I am lusting for one of these. $375? You lucky rascal!

tftech1 · #12 07-02-2009, 07:51 PM

This sounds very good. I have a K-frame target model like yours in the 636xxx range also. I paid more for it than you did, but everything is right with it, and I am happy - planning to get a letter soon. Recall that one of Ed McGivern's K-frame targets, his most famous one, is 640792. I regard the 630xxx to WWII guns as the "golden era" of these fine pistols.

victorylarry · #13 07-02-2009, 10:18 PM

M&P Targets are one of my favorites...

Keith Brown · #14 07-02-2009, 11:37 PM

whelenshooter, that sounds like a nice gun at a great price. I only have one that was purchased awhile back. I've shot it a good bit and really enjoy the pleasant report of a light loaded wadcutter in it, plenty accurate also. This one used to be in victorylarry's herd, Thanks again Larry!

Keith

whelenshooter · #15 07-03-2009, 08:32 PM

Wow! You're guns are in nicer shape than mine (yours are absolutely BEAUTIFUL), but I think mine is still pretty good. There is something about the lines of these guns that that I find really attractive. I think it is like women; certain ones with the right looks, plus the right personality and character, just take your breath away! I got busy this week and I still haven't gotten mine cleaned up and put together. I'll post my photos when I do. I'd like to see more photos of your revolvers, if people have them. I really enjoy seeing them! For those of you who have already posted your photos, THANK YOU!

PHB · #16 01-14-2012, 09:44 PM

I realize this thread is three years old but would their be a chance someone would have a parts diagram blowup of this gun I have one that I bought as scrap and going to atemp to put it back together as a winter project thanks in advance.

PHB · #17 01-15-2012, 12:30 AM

Back to the top............

DCWilson · #18 01-15-2012, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHB

I realize this thread is three years old but would their be a chance someone would have a parts diagram blowup of this gun I have one that I bought as scrap and going to atemp to put it back together as a winter project thanks in advance.

Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly: The Comprehensive Guide to Pistols ... - David R. Chicoine - Google Books

If that link doesn't take you directly to the diagram, look for page 326. Some pages before and after are blacked out, but 326 has a disassembled parts diagram.

sgms · #19 01-15-2012, 01:12 AM

Great looker there and even better find. I have one also work and shoots very well but only has 75-80% of the finish left, love to find one looking that good.

PHB · #20 01-15-2012, 02:44 AM

Thanks DC having a problem getting gun open tried all normal ways I know

Sodapop69 · #21 05-26-2016, 12:14 PM

Good morning. Hope this thread is still active(?). I know I traded into this S&W, factory engraved 4th change Target 38. According to S&W (cust. svs), the gun dates to around 1916. Greatly appreciate more input.

DWalt · #22 05-26-2016, 12:48 PM

I'd say yours probably left the factory around early 1917. Grips are incorrect for that time, as they are from the 1930s. But nice 1930s grips are difficult to find, and I think they look better than those from the 'teens. Tastefully but sparingly engraved, looks very attractive. I'll leave valuation to someone else, as I know nothing about engraved guns. I have none, and don't want any. You should probably get a letter.

Sodapop69 · #23 05-26-2016, 02:19 PM

Thanks, DWalt. I plan to work on getting the Letter. I don't know much about these revolvers. I'm told it is a factory engraved S&W. The time frame it left S&W fits the same time frame Eugene Young, engraver, did the work. It is also very similar in it's style to the very few I've found on line done by the same family: Gustave, Oscar & Eugene Young. Thanks for the info on the grips. I wasn't sure if they were/are correct.

Sodapop69 · #24 06-03-2016, 08:10 AM

DWalt, I just noticed the different front sights? I see what I beleive is called the Partridge sight (photo of three Target models) & mine?

Muley Gil · #25 06-03-2016, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodapop69

DWalt, I just noticed the different front sights? I see what I beleive is called the Partridge sight (photo of three Target models) & mine?

The proper spelling is Patridge. It is named after an early 20th century target shooter.

Sodapop69 · #26 07-12-2016, 02:54 PM

I received the letter on the model 1905 .38. It was shipped in Dec of 1917, factory engraved, special order revolver sent to Bourne & Bond Co. (trying to post the letter, can't figure it out).

ParadiseRoad · #27 03-09-2017, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodapop69

DWalt, I just noticed the different front sights? I see what I beleive is called the Partridge sight (photo of three Target models) & mine?

...your front sight is a Paine bead sight...should have a U notch rear blade to match...