C&R and Highway Patrolman

rm06 · #1 07-14-2009, 07:24 PM

I've had a C&R for about 4 years that I used when I collected U.S. Military firearms. I am getting a 1954 Highway Patrolman which I'd like to use my license though I can't find anywhere in my books or online where it explicitly states that I can other than the blanket statement:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

I want to make sure that the transaction is legitimate and that I'm not violating any laws. I appreciate any assistance.

MKT · #2 07-14-2009, 07:31 PM

As long as a S&W has 5 screws you are good to go, less than 5 you need a letter to verify it shipped prior to today's date in 1959.

HKSmith · #3 07-14-2009, 07:32 PM

It means exactly what it says - if the firearm was made prior to July 14, 1959 it qualifies as C&R.

bigolddave · #4 07-14-2009, 09:04 PM

Never mind. I just realized I was going to say something stupid. Fifty years OK, 49 is not, unless the item is specifically listed.

Engine49guy · #5 07-14-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKT

As long as a S&W has 5 screws you are good to go, less than 5 you need a letter to verify it shipped prior to today's date in 1959.

This is a very interesting topic,
Is there any place in ATF's website that references this?

After reading thread I went to skim the ATF guidelines as set out in the regulations (27 CFR 478.11) as well as the actual C&R list in Sec II.
Firearms Curios or Relics List

It makes absolute sense since the 4 to 5 screw gun transition occurred in the early 1950's.
I just have never heard it put this simply.

If it is referenced by the ATF as a recognized practice it would sure make my life alot easier when purchasing a 5 screw gun from an FFL01 in the future.

I fear that trying to explain the wisdom of it to an FFL01 that did not have an understanding of the 4 to 5 screw transition would result in getting nowhere.

Art Doc · #6 07-14-2009, 10:22 PM

C&R means Curio and Relic.

The Curios are gun that are special for some reason and were specifically listed. They tended to be less than 50 years old when listed because...

At 50 years of age the gun is considered a Relic. All commercial guns* that are 50 years old are automatically granted C&R status. The list the ATF puts out is for the Curios, those guns granted C&R status prior to being 50 years old.

Therefore, any revolver made in 1954 is C&R qualified as it is over 50 years old. The HP likely isn't on the ATF list because it was never considered a Curio, but once a particular gun hits 50 it becomes a Relic.

*Military rifles get screwed up treatment. If the rifle is in original configuration the 50 year rule applies. If modified in ANY way, it is no longer considered C&R by the ATF. Sucks but there it is.

Thiokol · #7 07-14-2009, 10:27 PM

Click on this link and read the paragraph in red:Firearms Curios or Relics List

MKT · #8 07-14-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

This is a very interesting topic,
Is there any place in ATF's website that references this?

After reading thread I went to skim the ATF guidelines as set out in the regulations (27 CFR 478.11) as well as the actual C&R list in Sec II.
Firearms Curios or Relics List

It makes absolute sense since the 4 to 5 screw gun transition occurred in the early 1950's.
I just have never heard it put this simply.

If it is referenced by the ATF as a recognized practice it would sure make my life alot easier when purchasing a 5 screw gun from an FFL01 in the future.

I fear that trying to explain the wisdom of it to an FFL01 that did not have an understanding of the 4 to 5 screw transition would result in getting nowhere.

In the copy of the C&R regs the ATF sent me in conjunction with my C&R it specifically stated any 5 screw S&W was a C&R gun. I took it that the ATF realized that the 5th screw was dropped in 1957 so obviously any with 5 screws were built prior to that. When you start talking about 4 screw guns things change. Obviously some were built prior to 1959 and some were built after and the only way to tell (and prove) would be with a historical letter. Of course I am on the road and away from my reference material to point you to page, chapter and verse.

EDIT: Since Thiokol posted the link I was able to do a fast read. I can't find where I'd read about the 5 screw versions, I might have been confusing it with this statement, cut from the 1972-2007 list:

Smith & Wesson, 4 screw side plate revolvers, old style N-frame series, with no model designation
stamped in the yoke cut, in cal. .44 magnum, all barrel lengths, falling within the S130000-Sl60350 block of S/Ns, of which a total of 6,500 units were produced from 1956 to 1958.

rm06 · #9 07-14-2009, 11:27 PM

Thanks for all the informative replies - I thought I had read at some point about 5 screw S&Ws, though it may have simply been hearsay.

Engine49guy · #10 07-15-2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKT

In the copy of the C&R regs the ATF sent me in conjunction with my C&R it specifically stated any 5 screw S&W was a C&R gun. I took it that the ATF realized that the 5th screw was dropped in 1957 so obviously any with 5 screws were built prior to that. When you start talking about 4 screw guns things change. Obviously some were built prior to 1959 and some were built after and the only way to tell (and prove) would be with a historical letter. Of course I am on the road and away from my reference material to point you to page, chapter and verse.

EDIT: Since Thiokol posted the link I was able to do a fast read. I can't find where I'd read about the 5 screw versions, I might have been confusing it with this statement, cut from the 1972-2007 list:

Smith & Wesson, 4 screw side plate revolvers, old style N-frame series, with no model designation
stamped in the yoke cut, in cal. .44 magnum, all barrel lengths, falling within the S130000-Sl60350 block of S/Ns, of which a total of 6,500 units were produced from 1956 to 1958.

Thanks MKT,
Again makes absolute sense to me,
Where I am foggy is the burden of proof during a transaction from an FFL01 to my FFL03.

I have learned when in doubt to error on the side of safety.
Would any certain S&W serial number reference guide book be satisfactory if someone gave a 5 year room for error in Serial number listings of date of manufacture on S&W 4 screw guns?
Or would you go the extra mile?
This is all hypothetical, I understand if any seller is uncomfortable selling a 4 or 5 screw gun because they lack documentation of shipping date thats the end of the stroy.
Its a very interesting topic of discussion.

Art Doc · #11 07-15-2009, 01:01 PM

In many cases you do not know for 100% certain a particular gun is actually 50 years old. The ATF expects you to make a good faith, reasonable effort to determine the age of the gun. The last German Luger was made in 1945. Pretty obvious any Luger is C&R. But a few years ago I bought a pair of S&Ws from a dealer using my C&R. I later lettered the guns and it turned out that one was shipped several months later than needed to be 50 years old at the time of the purchase. We looked at the serial and both felt it was over 50 but we were wrong by about 3 months. Big Deal? Not in my opinion and I doubt the ATF would be concerned.

Any S&W lacking a model number should be a 1957 or earlier. I think it reasonable to assume such a gun to be C&R qualified.

Engine49guy · #12 07-15-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxonPig

The last German Luger was made in 1945. .

Just wanted to clarify,

Maybe the last Nazi Waffenampt Luger was made in 1945 but
Mauser built commercial Lugers in the mid to late 1960's that were imported by Interarms even into the early 1970's.

Aimco and Mitchell arms still produce the Luger domesticly in stainless and blue.

cgt4570 · #13 07-15-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engine49guy

Thanks MKT,
Again makes absolute sense to me,
Where I am foggy is the burden of proof during a transaction from an FFL01 to my FFL03.

I have learned when in doubt to error on the side of safety.
Would any certain S&W serial number reference guide book be satisfactory if someone gave a 5 year room for error in Serial number listings of date of manufacture on S&W 4 screw guns?
Or would you go the extra mile?
This is all hypothetical, I understand if any seller is uncomfortable selling a 4 or 5 screw gun because they lack documentation of shipping date thats the end of the stroy.
Its a very interesting topic of discussion.

SCSW #3 has a pretty good listing of serial number ranges by year in the back. It's accurate to within a couple of years. Technically, C&R status based on production date, not ship date. Some S&W's shipped much later than they were made, but most of the time the only info available is the ship date. If it shipped 3 months too late to be 50 years old, you could just about bet on it being produced early enough to qualify.

I've had to convince several 01 Dealers and one field agent that ANY legal firearm that's 50 years old is C&R eligible. The following is from the February 2005 ATF Newsletter. It's pretty cut-n-dry. You might want to print it from the ATF website and carry a copy with you.

SALES OF FIREARMS TO
LICENSED COLLECTORS
OF CURIOS AND RELICS

Curio or relic firearms are defined as firearms which are
of special interest to collectors by reason of some
quality other than is associated with firearms intended
for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall
within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50
years prior to the current date, but not
including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of
a municipal, State, or Federal museum which
exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of
museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial
part of their monetary value from the fact that
they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of
their association with some historical figure,
period, or event [See 27 CFR 478.11 for
information on requisite criteria ATF
considers in rendering determinations under
this subsection].
As a reminder, a C&R license does not afford any
privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or
disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in
interstate or foreign commerce. A licensed collector
has the same status under the GCA as a non-licensee
except for transactions in curio or relic firearms.
Therefore, sales of non curio or relic firearms by
Federal Firearms Licensees to C&R license holders are
subject to the Brady Law National Instant Checks
System (NICS) and completion of ATF Form 4473.
[See 27 CFR 478.93].
The Department of Justice (DOJ) has asked ATF to
revise ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record
Part I – Over-the-Counter) to comply with the DOJ
format. We expect the amended form to be available
around August 2005. We will not be sending a mass
mailing of the amended form to all FFLs in August
because, except for the limited format changes required
by DOJ, the form will be the same as the current form,
dated October 2001. Therefore, you should continue
using the October 2001 version until your supply is
exhausted. If you run out of the October 2001 version
once the amended form is in print, we will send you the
amended forms as your replacement forms.
Please note that later in 2005, we will be issuing a new
version of the Form 4473 that will differ in content
from the October 2001 version. We hope this version
will streamline the record keeping process. Although
we do not know the exact month these forms will be
available, please be advised that the revised forms will
be mailed to all FFLs well in advance of their required
use to avoid any business disruptions. In the mailing
we will explain that the October 2001 forms, and the
modified Department of Justice forms discussed

above, can no longer be used.

smitholdtimer · #14 07-15-2009, 05:59 PM

I am not sure of the number of screws in the "NEW CLASSIC" revolvers being made but the blanket statement may not apply if they again have 5 (five) screws. I know for a fact that the upper side plate screw is included on some of the "Classics". Sorry the lock will surely give away its age.

cgt4570 · #15 07-15-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitholdtimer

I am not sure of the number of screws in the "NEW CLASSIC" revolvers being made but the blanket statement may not apply if they again have 5 (five) screws. I know for a fact that the upper side plate screw is included on some of the "Classics". Sorry the lock will surely give away its age.

The new ones DON'T have a trigger guard screw (maybe we should call them a post-3 screw 4-screw???). They DO have a model number and dash. There were NO 5-screw frames with model numbers. There's no way anyone can confuse a modern 'Classic' with an original. Too many obvious differences:
-vastly different serial number range
-mim parts
-frame mounted firing pin
etc. etc.

kennyb · #16 07-16-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitholdtimer

I am not sure of the number of screws in the "NEW CLASSIC" revolvers being made but the blanket statement may not apply if they again have 5 (five) screws. I know for a fact that the upper side plate screw is included on some of the "Classics". Sorry the lock will surely give away its age.

modern reproductions of the classics are not granted c&r status...there are however quite a number of newer guns (less than 50 years old) that DO fall into c&r status...one being the elmer keith commemorative 44 mag.s/n emk1-emk2500....the 50th comm.model 27 released in the mid 80's s/n'sreg001-reg2500 inclusive....these are just two that are less than 50 years old that fall into the LESS than 50 year old c&r status....there are pages and pages listed in the c&r list (S&W and many others).....there are some neat guns contained within this list that is published by BATF...for those that collect police guns.....the lists contains many commemorative guns made for state,federal,and local departments that again,fall into c&r status...and are less than 50 years old
more info.regarding this is under 27cfr-479.25 collectors items the director shall determine in accordance with 26 u.s.c.5845(a) whether a firearm or device,which although originally designed as a weapon,is by reason of the date of its manufacture,value,design and other characteristic's primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.a person who desires to obtain a determination under that provision of law shall follow the procedures prescribed in 27 cfr 479.24
in a nutshell,this falls under curious or relics and collector items definitions and determinations
there is some interesting reading

kennyb · #17 07-16-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxonPig

C&R means Curio and Relic.

The Curios are gun that are special for some reason and were specifically listed. They tended to be less than 50 years old when listed because...

At 50 years of age the gun is considered a Relic. All commercial guns* that are 50 years old are automatically granted C&R status. The list the ATF puts out is for the Curios, those guns granted C&R status prior to being 50 years old.

Therefore, any revolver made in 1954 is C&R qualified as it is over 50 years old. The HP likely isn't on the ATF list because it was never considered a Curio, but once a particular gun hits 50 it becomes a Relic.

*Military rifles get screwed up treatment. If the rifle is in original configuration the 50 year rule applies. If modified in ANY way, it is no longer considered C&R by the ATF. Sucks but there it is.

SP....ATF ruling 85-10 DOES note that military rifles must be in their original configuration to fall under the c&r 50 year rule however....under the firearms technology branch (ftb) minor changes to include scope mounts,non-original sights,or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition...moreover it was determined that replacing particular firearm parts with new parts that are made to original design will also be acceptable-for example,replacing a cracked m1 grand stock with a new wooden stock,of the same design is fine....however,replacing it with a plastic stock would change its classification as a c&r item.