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Old 04-23-2010, 04:16 PM
charlie sherrill charlie sherrill is offline
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Default Mod. 58 SAPD Info Needed.

I picked up one of these yesterday. It's marked SAPD (San Antonio P.D.) on the left side. I was wondering how many of these they ordered and if they ordered them more than once.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:03 PM
charlie sherrill charlie sherrill is offline
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Nobody knows?
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Old 04-25-2010, 12:19 AM
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GUN WORLD magazine used to have a writer named Tom Ferguson who was a retired sergeant at SAPD and was there during their .41 Mag experience. He has been dead for a while. He wrote often about it. From memory, I believe that they only bought one batch of Model 58's. Only a few of the officers liked them, mostly due to the weight of the gun on the hip and the recoil, especially during qualifications, as the alternative to being issued a M-58 was to be issued a .38 Special M&P and, later, a K frame .357. The department qualified with mid-range wadcutter reloads in the .38 and .357 revolvers but there was no reduced loading for the .41's. Thus, it was a far easier task to shoot a high score with the smaller bore guns. Ferguson was a big fan of the gun and cartridge, which, he wrote, put him in the minority.

Whether or not the SAPD's M-58's were delivered all at once or in several shipments, I don't think he ever said.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:01 AM
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I clipped and saved a lot of Ferguson's articles, as I like the Model 58 and not much was written about them back then. I looked for the clippings today but can't find them.

I will quit looking for them now. Everything turns up just after I quit looking for them.

Ferguson said something that made a lot of sense. He felt that one reason the .41 Mag didn't make it as a police cartridge was that it carried the "Magnum" label, which influenced many people that didn't have experience with the round, or guns in general, and saw Magnums as "too much" and "overkill" and police brutality and an assault on racial relations and every sort of evil intent attributable to inanimate objects. He thought that had the Model 58 been rollmarked ".41 POLICE" or something, and the lead bullet medium velocity loading been headstamped the same, it may well have sold better to police departments. He may have been right. I think he had one of his M-58's so modified/remarked.

How is Leland? We don't hear much from him anymore.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:31 PM
charlie sherrill charlie sherrill is offline
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Thanks for the info. I Googled Tom Ferguson and turned up hundreds of them. Kinda like running John Smith on NCIC. You get a lot of hits. Leland is alive and sort of well. He shows up here sometimes, like a few weeks ago when he tripped over that unshrouded "model 320" 38/44 HD that he found at a local show. I actually carried a model 58 on duty for a few years back in the 70's. Back then it was considered an ugly duckling. I had to blow five years of dust off the gun and the box when I bought it for the reduced price of $75.00. I wish I still had that one. But, I can say that about many of them.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:29 AM
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Amarillo, Texas PD was one of the first PDs to buy the S&W Model 58s after the shooting death of Officer William S. Meadows.

Quote:
Patrolman Meadows was shot and killed just outside of the city limits during a vehicle pursuit of two juvenile suspects who had fled from a boy's camp and taken a family hostage. During the pursuit the two juveniles repeatedely fired at officers, striking Patrolman Meadows in the head.

Other officers returned fire, killing one of the suspects. The other suspect was found not guilty after family testified that he was a good child. The same juvenile later murdered his father, his brother, and a friend.
The pickup the youths were driving looked like it had been in a bad hail storm from all of the .38spl 158gr rounds the police fired at it. Two Texas Highway Patrolmen finally pulled up behind the truck and after taking rounds through the windshield stuck the barrel of a M-2 Carbine through one of the holes and riddled the back of the pickup killing on of the youts. Buddy Fesmire immediated said TODDI.

Amarillo, Texas PD immediately put in a order with S&W for Model 58 so that their officer might have a reliable pistol inwhich to protect themselves with.

Rule 303
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:18 AM
S-W4EVER S-W4EVER is offline
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This article sheds a little light on the subject: Why We Don't Have A .41 Keith
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:45 AM
BUFF BUFF is offline
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Very informative, Rule .303 and S-W4EVER. Thanks for finding and posting them.

In 1980, SHOOTING TIMES published a softcover book titled "SKEETER SKELTON ON HANDGUNS" which was a collection of some of his earlier writings. One article in it was titled "DA VS. SA- Which One's for You?" In it was a photograph of a data sheet from S&W for the M-58, which S&W called the "41 MILITARY & POLICE." Skelton had a row of pistol cartridges displayed on it. The caption read, "Double-action .41 Mag S&W M58 is ideal officer's and hunter's handgun. Good calibers for this gun are- left to right - .41 Mag., .45 ACP & AR, .44 Spl., .45 Colt, .38-40, and .44-40." Skeeter obviously believed other rounds would be at home in the big N-frame sixgun if S&W so chose.

I really think to this day that the M-58 should have been chambered for the .45 Colt, which even in it's traditional round nose/flat tip lead bullet loadings, is a great cartridge forlaw enforcement.

At the time, 1964, the Model 58 with the "mid-range" lead bullet load, was the most effective law enforcement handgun and ammo combination then being manufactured. It had everything you needed and nothing you didn't. It was a lot of little quirks and circumstances that made it the less-than-stellar seller it was.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Frank V Frank V is offline
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The model 58 is a great gun. If I had one offered reasonably priced & could afford it, I'd buy it.
Frank
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:01 PM
SteveA SteveA is offline
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A guy came into my office last year and told my secretary he had heard I liked revolvers. She had me come up front and he produced two, a Model 58 blued, and a Ruger Blackhawk in .41. I asked what he wanted for them and he said $500 for the pair. I dove for my check book as I called the S.O. for an NCIC on the serial numbers. Both came from the estate of a guy I knew from the local gunshop and were legit. Both revolvers are in excellent shape. Kind of takes the sting out of a NIB nickel Model 58 I picked up in 1999 for $250. I had a buyer offer $500 a few days after I bought it and promptly sold it. I'm hanging on to this one.
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:10 PM
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There is a bit of a cult following for the 58. I still say it is not a very useful gun. The 57 is much better as a sporting pistol.

Despite what collectors and S&W lovers may think, the fact is the gun was an utter failure. A flop. It was too heavy for most cops, was too big for many to handle properly, and the recoil (even with reduced loads) was too much for the vast majority of officers.

I recall even Ferguson once wrote of ditching his duty 58 when it got heavy in favor of a standard barrel M10.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:13 AM
GregG GregG is offline
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The 58 does what it was designed for well, which is close range combat for those that prefer a revolver. Put ammo in it that you can manage, mild or hot.

It's not a long range hunting revolver, or a target gun.

I too would like to have seen this weapon chambered in .45 Colt.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:16 AM
karamojo karamojo is offline
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Quote:
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I too would like to have seen this weapon chambered in .45 Colt.
... and in stainless-steel construction, please.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:49 PM
4864 4864 is offline
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Quote:
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... and in stainless-steel construction, please.
Oh my. That would have been nice!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:39 PM
mrhockey mrhockey is offline
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A Model 58 in 45 Colt would be my favorite carry piece for jeans weather here. I became fascinated with the Model 58 at the NRA Annual Meeting when it was here last year and I saw the "Classic" model at S&W's booth. I'd be happy with one in any caliber of course, so Charlie, know that I am pleasantly jealous of your acquisition.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:57 PM
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I'm unpleasantly jealous, but that's nothing new. Congrats, Charlie.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:17 PM
Julian Julian is offline
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Default Model 58

Have a blued 58 in box i bought in 74, Blued 58 SAPD and a nickel 58. Never shot the nickeled one, but the others are sweet. I also picked up a 3in blued 57 which i was told was A Lew Horton run. Though I've only seen the 657 not 57. It's got a a cut down hammer and smooth target trigger. The grip has been shaped to K frame size. It's not the sweet shooter the 58 is. Like infor if anyones heard of these. Yes, I'm a reloader.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:24 PM
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I cannot tell you how many SAPD ordered, but I can tell you those are sought after handguns around here. Men are always asking about for those.

I have inquired about SAPD guns before, let me get through Thanksgiving and I will make a phone call and see if I can find your answer.
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Old 11-27-2014, 01:08 AM
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Charlie...hope you will post a picture of your purchase here...

The 'unofficial' 58 Club

Bob
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:26 AM
texcops texcops is offline
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Default SAPD model 58

I was searching for a SAPD model 58 for sale and I came across your post from 2010. Are you still seeking info and if you still have the 58 and are interested in selling I would be interesed
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Old 01-09-2015, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian View Post
Have a blued 58 in box i bought in 74, Blued 58 SAPD and a nickel 58. Never shot the nickeled one, but the others are sweet. I also picked up a 3in blued 57 which i was told was A Lew Horton run. Though I've only seen the 657 not 57. It's got a a cut down hammer and smooth target trigger. The grip has been shaped to K frame size. It's not the sweet shooter the 58 is. Like infor if anyones heard of these. Yes, I'm a reloader.

It would not be a Lew Horton gun as the only real LH gun was a 657 full underlug stainless. The 1986 3" 657 was a stocking dealer special.

As to your 3" 57 if you can post a pic it would help identify it. John Jarvino used to do what you describe and if it is one of his guns it is worth a lot of money.

Bob

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Old 01-10-2015, 09:44 PM
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One of the reasons people had trouble shooting the M58 (and remember that back then the standard cop was a good sized male) is that much of it was one handed shooting. The revolution in technique coming from Cooper and his friends of the Big Bear/Leatherslap days was a decade off. One hand shooting unless one has no way to use the second hand (wounded, etc) is a bad choice. There were two types of factory ammo then - the mid range 210 grain SWC, which leaded like a monster and was a pain the backside as a result, and the full house (1400-ish fps) 210 grain JSP. There is no reason to use a JSP in LE if decent SWC is available, period, so using that hunting load was just dumb. (Command level idiocy is a constant in LE.) It is really unpleasant to shoot, and hard to shoot well. (I carried a speedloader of it as a 3rd reload, just in case, but it was not a good general duty load.)

When I was younger and tougher, I did shoot the JSP. I took it to the range during my FI class and qualified with it. Under a covered firing point. My name was combined in all sorts of ways with nasty language - darned thing was loud and the concussion bothersome. Even those on the other side of the divided (10 foot high concrete wall) outside range were cussing me. I qualified with it for my first LEOSA qual a couple years back on an indoor range, with a lead restriction, so had to use JHP hunting loads. Nasty. Did ok considering I don't shoot revolvers often, but not a good choice.

We have learned in the 50 years since then that handguns suck and that a rifle should be the first choice if expecting a problem one cannot avoid (such if you're a cop). There is no real performance difference in terminal ballistics among service calibers as long as one shoots for and hits the right parts of the body. We did not really understand that back then; the targets used did not at all reflect anatomical reality, etc. Under those conditions, the .41 SWC was a better choice than anything in .38, especially in the many agencies stuck with the RN garbage. If one is shooting at and hitting the right spots, a .38 SWC is adequate, and as a general rule, in most revolver calibers, I prefer a good SWC for duty/defense over an JHP. (I rarely carry a revolver, and most of the time it would be in 45ACP, so I carry duty ammo for an autopistol in it of course).
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:00 AM
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Default Model 58 SAPD Stamped

I know it is very difficult to find, but I am trying to find a Model 58 SAPD stamped Smith. I am retired from SAPD and have my Model 65 and a model 10 stamped SAPD on them and would like to expand my collection. If anyone can direct me to one, I would appreciate it. Many thanks. Al
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38spl, carbine, cartridge, colt, k frame, military, model 10, n-frame, nra, patrolman, ruger, skeeter, skelton, wadcutter

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