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03-04-2011, 07:51 PM
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Quality of late 1960's S&Ws
Hello Everyone,
I've heard negative remarks about Smith & Wesson revolvers from the late '60s and early '70s. Should I be leary of getting involved with a revolver from this period of economic and social malaise?
Thanks, JT
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03-04-2011, 08:12 PM
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By all means don't buy anything from that period. All junk.
DW
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03-04-2011, 08:31 PM
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Yeah, so we can get them cheaper!
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03-04-2011, 09:46 PM
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Almost all of my S&W's are from that era and think they are the most beautiful guns made and I have absolutly no complaints. I would be more worried with the guns made today. There is little or no pride in workmanship these days, just slap them together and ship them out if there is a problem then they will fix them. Not like the old days when people actually took pride in their work and craftsmanship.
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03-04-2011, 10:10 PM
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I would buy 3 from the 60's before I thought about one new one...YMMV.
Please save the old ones for the old guys...
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03-04-2011, 10:14 PM
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03-04-2011, 10:19 PM
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Hey All,
Let me clarify what I meant, I have heard repeatedly that during the late 60s and early 70s quality declined at Smith and Wesson. I was asking if this was true or simply a malicious rumor? I didn't mean to offend anyone, and if I did so, I apologise. I ask because I know that S&Ws from the "good old days" are regarded quite highly whereas those that followed from 1964 forward are regarded as inferior by some. Again, I just wanted to know more about the subject as I am uninformed.
Thanks All, JT
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03-04-2011, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig
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All beautiful Saxon! Thanks for the look at some lovely Smiths. You ever carry one with Ivory grips? I know they are rare but according to most the feeling of Ivory in the hand is simply incomparable, even if most of the time the grips cost just as much or more than the gun! I hope my previous post clarified what I meant, there was no intent to be insultatory.
Thanks, JT
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03-04-2011, 10:25 PM
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There are people who say bad things about S&W revolvers made during this period but I own a quite a few from the 50's, 60's, and 70's and they are all excellent revolvers. I agree with what some of the above posters have already stated "I'd buy these before I buy the ones made today". I say that because when the ones I have were made the people who made them took pride in their work and companies weren't being driven to cut costs to survive.
I actually like it when people say bad things about the revovers you mentioned because that leaves more for me to select from for the ones I want to purchase.
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03-04-2011, 10:26 PM
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I own a model 10 from 1962 and another model 10 from 1969. There is no difference in quality (which is excellent) between the 2.
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03-04-2011, 10:27 PM
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Saxon,
One other thing whilst we are on the subject of ivory, do you know any companies that make Ivory target grips for any of the frames that are still in production? (i.e. J, K, L, or N?) (All X's have that lock and I don't need a handcannon)
Thanks, JT
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03-04-2011, 11:03 PM
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I have a model 29-2 in blue finish. It is 1971 vintage and I can honestly say the overall quality in finish & metal-work is better than my later 29-3 of 1984 vintage, but don't take my statements as matter of fact........it only reflects MY particular case.
Russ
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03-04-2011, 11:13 PM
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I see, thank you for your input Russ, I will take it into consideration.
JT
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03-04-2011, 11:15 PM
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There are lemons from all eras, as well as superb pieces......I have a 10-14 that is great, as well as a very late M&P, a 10-6, and a bunch of others. All of them shoot great and function 100%. I have a 64-3 from 1978 with a forcing cone fitted too tight, it locks up after 100 rounds or so. Also have a 64-7 from 2002 that is pure perfection. You have to judge each one individually.
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03-04-2011, 11:21 PM
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While I do acknowledge the lemons from all eras theory, I also have read quite a bit of history about American companies. Look at Detroit in the 1970s, they went from being king of the hill in North America in the 1960s to making some of their worst cars in the following decade. (i.e. Ford Pinto, Chevy Vega) I just wondered if the American gun industry also had periods of malaise like this? Does this make sense?
Thanks, JT
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03-05-2011, 12:22 AM
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Just pullin your leg son.
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03-05-2011, 01:06 AM
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During the so called dreaded "Bangor Punta era" supposedly QC got lax and some guns got out that probably should have been sent back for more finishing......I have an early 581 complete with a Bangor Punta branded box, and it has a canted barrel, looks like it was a shortcut to sight the gun in. It also has unpolished milling marks around the chambers, like the boring tool slipped on each of the six chambers. But the gun shoots like a laser and is perfectly reliable, just that it wasn't "perfect" cosmetically when it left the factory.
Also, Taurus has it's die hard fans......some people have Model 66 or 82 revolvers with 10's of thousands of flawless rounds, and other people have bought them with cylinders that fail to lock up right out of the box. I have a few Taurus revolvers, and this same debate goes on over at the Taurus forum, some people say the 90's were a "bad" era for Taurus but the new ones are good, while some say the older ones from the 70's and 80's were the "good" ones because they had a link with S&W at this time, and after that they went downhill.
There's so much involved with making revolvers, it can't be narrowed down to an "era". One Model 10 made in 1961 on a certain day may have been fitted perfectly, then the one assembled right after it may have a poorly fitted forcing cone because the barrel fitter was looking at the clock at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon and wanted to get the last one done so he could punch out for the day. QC doesn't catch everything, if it passes test fire and shoots to POA, it gets boxed up and shipped. If the gun has a "hitch" in the action that takes some heat from shooting to develop, or a flaw that won't show for a few 1,000 rounds QC won't catch it.
This summer Ruger assembled some GP100's with cylinders that missed heat treating. Not many, but a recall was issued for what would come to maybe a few hundred revolvers, like someone dropped the ball on a batch of cylinders......it happens in every era and it's just an aspect of manufacturing. My 2005 Dodge Magnum had a wheel bearing that went bad after 16,000 miles, the dealer mechanic was like "just a bad part from the factory".....
Last edited by stantheman86; 03-05-2011 at 01:18 AM.
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03-05-2011, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman86
There are lemons from all eras, as well as superb pieces......I have a 10-14 that is great, as well as a very late M&P, a 10-6, and a bunch of others. All of them shoot great and function 100%. I have a 64-3 from 1978 with a forcing cone fitted too tight, it locks up after 100 rounds or so. Also have a 64-7 from 2002 that is pure perfection. You have to judge each one individually.
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this is a great piece of advice. it applies to more than s&w revolvers. if you find a great revolver or pocket knife make sure you keep it.
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03-05-2011, 01:20 AM
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You can get a lemon from any generation, but my experience with several 29-2's from that era is they are very well made and finished. That said, I have a 629-6, complete with the dreaded lock and MIM parts that is finished as well as most any post war gun, and locks up tighter, and is more accurate then any N frame I have owned; and Ive owned about a dozen.
Larry
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03-05-2011, 01:33 AM
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I guess that's a fair enough conclusion to reach. After all, guns are made by people, and people are far from perfect. Alright guys, you have assuaged my fears about purchasing a revolver from this era. Now, another question for the sages here, was it uncommon for police departments to stamp the backstraps of service revolvers during this time? Never seen it before until I discovered the gun I'm thinking of acquiring.
Thanks to you all for the advice, JT
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03-05-2011, 01:40 AM
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Many police departments marked the backstraps of revolvers, including Detroit: Detroit PD gun picture thread?!!!!
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03-05-2011, 02:55 AM
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I have a 1956 production M&P with East Cleveland PD on the backstrap.
Many small PD's didn't bother to stamp their guns, so unless you have it lettered you'll never know.
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03-05-2011, 03:19 AM
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My ~1974 model 64 still locks up rock solid and shoots about as straight as I can.
Damn good-looking too.
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03-05-2011, 11:18 AM
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Ok, well that makes it kind of a neat firearm for me! I think I
m going to go for it, one other thing, is it unusual for police departments to have ordered a nickel finish on an otherwise mundane K-Frame .38 Special? Just seemed a tad odd to me as most former police guns I have encountered were blued when ordered. Also, I don't think she's a refinish, the edges are too sharp, the screws aren't dished, and the engravings are still fine.
Thanks Much, JT
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03-05-2011, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseatamez
Ok, well that makes it kind of a neat firearm for me! I think I
m going to go for it, one other thing, is it unusual for police departments to have ordered a nickel finish on an otherwise mundane K-Frame .38 Special? Just seemed a tad odd to me as most former police guns I have encountered were blued when ordered. Also, I don't think she's a refinish, the edges are too sharp, the screws aren't dished, and the engravings are still fine.
Thanks Much, JT
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Actually quite a few police departments ordered nickel guns back in the 50's and 60's because they believed them more rust resistant then blued revolvers. This changed when stainless guns were intoduced and then off course ended when they shifted to semi auto's.
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03-05-2011, 11:32 AM
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Not trying to offend anyone, but man oh man do I wonder how someone could pass up the proven goodness of an all metal wheelgun for one of these "fantastic plastic" things? I absolutely love a revolver and I'm only 24, so I guess I buck the trend of young people who only like semi autos.
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03-05-2011, 11:51 AM
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I have a 2" nickel mod 10 from Detroit PD that is stamped on the backstrap, from what I have read these were issued to detectives and higher ups. As for the plastic guns of today they have their place in law enforcement. I think I would rather have 15 shots instead of 6, they tend to be alot lower maintence as most cops are in all weather elements. I am not a "collector" of plastic guns but I do have a few and their pourpose is served for what they are intended for.
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03-05-2011, 11:58 AM
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Fair enough, though they do make 8 shot .357s these days lol. I won't go intothe old quality of accuracy vs. quantity of shots rhetoric but it's something I thought about.
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03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
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what i notice most,more than mechanical issues,is the cometic issues .
even guns from the same year,lets say 1970,have a bwide specrum when it comes to the blueing quality.some guns are just horrible.some look like a master finsher did the blue or nickle work.and there are some mechanical issues,mostly poorly fitted barrels,tight actions..i guess thats why i like stainless so much,we can clean up a lot of neglect,or use,on our own ,and have them looking pretty good
my 2 cents.in todays age,about half a cent and going down daily,one day my advice will be worth nothing,might be now,and i am to dumb to even know.
happy trails sw folks,you guys are the best
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03-05-2011, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesseatamez
Hello Everyone,
I've heard negative remarks about Smith & Wesson revolvers from the late '60s and early '70s. Should I be leary of getting involved with a revolver from this period of economic and social malaise?
Thanks, JT
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Before about 1976, I'd willingly buy S&W's sight unseen. In general it worked out pretty well. I received a small number that had what I'd consider a significant problem, significant meaning one I couldn't easily fix, such as a chamber way off. But those were the exception. From the mid-70's on, they put out so many dogs I had to see them before buying. There were still good specimens put out, but it wasn't the rule anymore. Note that I am talking more about correct machining, fitting, and metallurgy than how shiny they were. The quality of finish went down across the board, no question.
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03-05-2011, 05:51 PM
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I bought a new model 27 in 1970. It came from the box with a tight spot on rotation of the cylinder, the barrel lug to frame fit left a gap and one cylinder carried up much slower than the remaining five. I have handled a lot of guns from that era and found a lot of them that had cylinders that did not carry up on one or more chambers, or were very inconsistent. I shot PPC a lot back then and it is very difficult to shoot double action when each cylinder locks up different than the rest of them. This occured on model 19 and 66's as well. That does not mean that there were not some good ones, just that quality was inconsistent. Check them out carefully prior to purchase. Another item to check is that the hand and ratchets tend to bind more on these guns as opposed to the lock up and smooth ride by found on the early 50's and earlier guns. That being said, this is just my experience, with hands on experience with only a small sample of the total manufactured. At least none of them had a hole in the side!
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03-07-2011, 12:38 PM
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How can I tell if a cylinder passage isn't setting up right? I don't understand what you're talking about, but it sounds like something I should learn about. Please explain what you are talking about for a layperson.
Thanks, JT
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03-07-2011, 04:28 PM
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They are very strong and probably the classic period
for police revolvers. I really like these revolvers, and nothing made today compares.
FWIW, they used to be called junk by the real old timers of that period...Seems that any new Smith is never as good as the old ones they don't make anymore.
mark
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03-07-2011, 04:39 PM
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So, and I'm mostly joking here, you think a Registered Magnum is no better than say a Model 27 from that period? I do understand what you're saying, but there is a kernel of truth in the old platitude: "They don't make 'em like they used to."
Respectfully, JT
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03-07-2011, 09:30 PM
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I as well would like an indepth study of this era of guns from a knowledgable student of the Smith revolver. I have a few of this era and find them superb but would like to see a side by side comparison of every part, then maybe I can figure out if the remarks are correct or falise. I agree about the newer guns, I bought one and will never buy another. I am a Winchester man and we students of these can actually view most parts and tell in what era they were built and how they were constructed. I would like to hear from such a Smith & Wesson man with the same passion.
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03-07-2011, 10:42 PM
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It seems such a tragedy that American companies like S&W have abandoned the pursuit of perfection that German, Suisse, and Japanese companies now practice. The New Century Hand Ejector (AKA Triple Lock) is a fine example in my mind. That thrid lock wasn't necessary, but it was excellent. It showed an attention to detail that I cannot find amongst any American companies today. It's all cost cutting, and it's a shame. Imagine for a moment, a world where Smith decided the third lock was worth keeping around, even if only for a line of ultra premium revolvers. Sure, they would cost more to make, but quality always finds buyers. I believe the S&W name is still immensely valuable, but withinin America's relentless charge downmarket in consumer goods, we have lost the ability to truly produce a product that is world beating I am sad to say. In 1930, owning a Cadillac really meant something, now it means nothing, except to say you want to appear rather than to be. Same thing with S&W, maybe some of this historians can help me out here. I would wager that when S&W stopped selling ivory grips, pearl grips, and other high end options on their guns is when people began to see a decline in the company. Sure, these things taken individually only represent an attempt at being "politically correct" but as a whole they show a loss of desire to be the best. Take a look at Rolls Royce, they will sell you a car lined with the rarest most endangered animals hides you can imagine if the price is right; they will build something to your specifications if you have the cash; they will put ivory knobs on your car, or a mother of pearl inlays on the power window switches; or lignum vitae on the console. Now, I know that some of you will say that such companies are socially irrelevant due to their size, BUT, the bigger issue here is the quality of the product and the lengths to which Rolls Royce will go to please you. There was a time, not so long ago that S&W was such a company, sure they didn't make X, but if you asked there was a distinct chance they would try to create X for you! In my mind that is the true mark of excellence, a willingness to do whatever the customer asks of you because you can, and then standing behind what you have created out of pride. Yes I understand economics, and I also understand not everyone can afford to play the game at the RR level, but that's the point, if something is difficult but not impossible then do it so long as it can be paid for. An action is only socially irresponsible if one cannot justify it in anyway, so yes a custom revolver would be quite an extravagance, but it also is a self limiting extravagance. Only a few people could afford such an item, yet the halo effect created by making those few items is far more valuable than the sales of many common products.
Sorry For The Rant, JT
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03-07-2011, 11:06 PM
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JESSEATAMEZ, you speak volumes. Winchester, Remington and the rest all gave in, some like Winchester lasted longer but they all surrendered. The quality of a pre war Savage 99 is so far greater than later models. Most started cutting corners after the war, some slowly others rapidly. Guess us lovers of hand built quality guns must go to the online auction sites for our passions.
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03-07-2011, 11:23 PM
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It's good to know others feel the way I do!
JT
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03-07-2011, 11:33 PM
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I'm not a rifle guy but I always wondered is the Remington 12C a good gun, love the old school octagon barrel style and pump action!
JT
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03-07-2011, 11:48 PM
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JESSEATAMEZ, dont know if this is the place to discuss Remington rifles ,but yes the model 12 in any of its configurations is a superb hand crafter firearm designed by a man tat the great Johnatan Browning called the best gun designed ever. That man last name was Petersen and designed many quality firearms.
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03-08-2011, 12:06 AM
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Good to know, and yes I know it's not the perfect place to speak of Remingtons but you seemed knowledgeable so I figured I would ask. You know anyone who has one lol?
Thanks, JT
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03-08-2011, 12:18 AM
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Jesseatamez, they are fairly common, I have owned quite a few over the years and at present I dont have one though I see this situation being short lived. I have studied firearm design and construction for decades and have some real preferences. For me it must be built by skilled craftsmen, of milled steel, and walnut. No plastic, stamped tin parts, MIM parts, or pot metal castings.
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03-08-2011, 12:47 AM
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Right with you, though is there a historical reason you shouldn't use anything but walnut? There are many beautiful woods historically used by artisans in our country.
Thanks, JT
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03-08-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quality is indeed slipping away slowly and has been and will continue until consumers quit buying sub par goods. Companies relying on their name to sell anything nowadays is a slippery slope. Brand loyalty is largely a thing of the past...laying your hands on anything and examining it is still the best method for determining quality. Doesn't matter what decade it was made in.
Forums like this can be very educational for us. But nothing beats common sense and a little research. Also patience,impulse buying often results in a bad purchase regardless of quality. These are just my opinions of course. Hope this helps a little.
Have Fun With Your Gun Son!!
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581, 629, browning, ejector, hand ejector, k-frame, lock, model 10, model 19, model 27, model 29, model 66, pinto, ppc, punta, registered magnum, remington, ruger, s&w, savage, smith and wesson, smith-wessonforum.com, taurus, walnut, winchester |
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