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Old 03-12-2011, 06:29 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Default Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?

Gentlemen,
I know I've read a few times, over the years, that it is not wise to shoot full power 357Mag 110g and 125g bullets through a S&W K frame revolver. Is this a real issue?
Also, is this true with 38sp +p ammo?

I've seen some photos of cracked barrels at the flat section of the barrel right in front of the cylinder and they said it was caused by light weight bullets.
I've got one box of 357 110g and two boxes of 125g. If I stretch my shooting of these over time,( a cylinder every so often) would it be a problem?
I did a search but it was fruitless.
Please give me your thoughts or experience with this issue.
Thanks guys.

Last edited by thedr15; 03-12-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:37 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Reasonable use of these loads will not harm your revolver. Shot quite a few Rem 357 125 SJHP's thru a model 66 and 586 back when they were my duty guns, without problem. Cracked forcing cones have been reported after EXTENSIVE use of these lightweight bullets on K frame guns.

Larry
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:50 PM
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thedr15 thedr15 is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Thanks FishinFool,
Maybe I should identify the make of ammo I have. The 357 ammo is Winchester White box 110g JHP
and the other two are Remington 125g JSP.
The gun is a Model 66 S/S 2.5in barrel.
I will not shoot an entire box of each in one range/camping trip.
I will put six in my speed loader for a camping trip or two and spread it out.
I was just wondering if 150 rnds, over time, would it crack my barrel?

Last edited by thedr15; 03-12-2011 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:26 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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It's hard to predict if they will crack the barrel. I've read posts by some who have claimed that they had cracked the forcing cone with less that one full box of the Super Vel ammo back in the 70's. Now, on a positive note, I strongly doubt that your WWB is loaded anywhere near the power levels of that old Super Vel. One thing to try is looking for the ballistic data for that WWB, if the muzzle energy is 500 ft.lbs. or less it's likely to be harmless. Same thing in regards to that Remington JSP.

However, if you want to be 100% safe, regard that particular lot of ammo in your posession as a reason to purchase a 686 or 627. Come on, admit it, you really do need another 357 Magnum, one just isn't enough.

As for your question regarding +P ammo, that won't be a problem, by SAAMI specs. almost any 38 +P you can find will generate only about 250 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy and that's not even close to the 700 ft.lbs. that a hot 357 Magnum commercial loading can generate.

BTW, I've excluded both Double Tap and Buffalo Bore ammunition from being considered "commercial", both these makers produce ammunitions that are at SAAMI maximums or perhaps just a bit over SAAMI maximums. Basically, they are great hunting ammunitions but a lot more powerful that I would care to use for casual shooting in something as light as a K frame.
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:52 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Hi,
Here is a good article on what full power 125 gr 357 ammo does to the forcing cone area. I am talking ammo like the legendary Federal and Remington used "back in the day".

Here is part of a post that explains the affects of the lighter grain full house 357s.
The lighter bullet causes a few things to happen.

1: It accelerates faster in the cylinder, striking the forcing cone MUCH harder than the 158gr bullet.
2: The shorter 125gr bullet leaves the case before a 158gr bullet, causing more unburned powder to fly forward and combust in the throat and barrel. This causes flamecutting on the topstrap and peening of the forcing cone. Again, very bad.
3: The recoil impulse of the 125gr loads are much sharper and severe than a comparable 158gr load, so it batters the gun HARD.
4: To be honest, the 125gr load is the most common out there, but it is not the best load. It is light and fast and while it expands violently, it tends to underpenetrate. The 158gr expands and has enough momentum to smash through and hit vitals.

There is more infomation on the net but the above paragraph I feel explains the round well.
You will have to make the decision on how many of these type of rounds to shoot in you K frame magnum. I have three K frame magnums and shoot only 140 gr to 158 gr ammo. Most of these rounds have a velocity rate of 1200 to 1350 fps. The full power 125 gr 357 rounds have a velocity of between 1500 to 1600 fps. These are all in 4 inch barrel 357 magnum revolvers.
I hope this helps answer your question.
Howard
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:56 PM
IraIII IraIII is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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You state that your revolver is a model 66 which is stainless steel. I do not believe that the stainless steel models, 66 / 65 were prone to the barrel cracking that the model 19 / 13 were. I may be incorrect, and will defer to those with more experience, but I would not worry about modern 357 ammo in a stainless K frame.
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:59 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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My personal 66 has had probably a couple hundred of the full-house Remingtion 125gr through it over the years and shows no ill effects.

I've since switched over to the much milder Remington 125gr Golder Saber for carry and shoot my cast 140gr reloads running a mild 1010 out the muzzle for practice/competition.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:07 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Bring your ammo to your local gun shop or a gun show and trade for some ammo with heavier bullets. End of story. You will sleep better at night. If you consider it a risk, then saving a few bucks by shooting ammo on hand is not worth it. It's that simple. Hope this puts the issue in perspective. These K frames are a blast to shoot, why spoil the fun with something nagging in the back of your mind?

Cap
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:06 PM
Joe in SC Joe in SC is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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I'd probably avoid shooting those light rounds and just purchase some heavier stuff if I needed to shoot magnums. Replacement barrels for a 66 might be an issue in the future (may already be hard to come by, I just don't know).

I have read articles by Brian Pearce in Handloader that indicates that he believes the split forcing cone issue in K-frame magnum revolvers can be attributed to a build-up of fouling in the forcing cone. I don't remember exactly but I would think he's talking about lead fouling. I get the feeling from reading his (Brian Pearce) stuff over the years that he is probably the most knowledgable gunwriter out there right now. That's my take on it.

I have handled and cleaned a lot of handguns (used to detail cop trade-in guns for a friend who owned a gunshop) and from this experience I can tell you that a lot of shooters do not do a very good job of cleaning the forcing cone. In many instances the barrel would be clean and the forcing cone would require a good bit of work with JB bore cleaner and a Lewis lead remover. I can see where this could lead to premature failure of the forcing cone under the added stress when firing high pressure, high velocity magnum loads.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:22 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in SC View Post
I'd probably avoid shooting those light rounds and just purchase some heavier stuff if I needed to shoot magnums. Replacement barrels for a 66 might be an issue in the future (may already be hard to come by, I just don't know).

I have read articles by Brian Pearce in Handloader that indicates that he believes the split forcing cone issue in K-frame magnum revolvers can be attributed to a build-up of fouling in the forcing cone. I don't remember exactly but I would think he's talking about lead fouling. I get the feeling from reading his (Brian Pearce) stuff over the years that he is probably the most knowledgable gunwriter out there right now. That's my take on it.

I have handled and cleaned a lot of handguns (used to detail cop trade-in guns for a friend who owned a gunshop) and from this experience I can tell you that a lot of shooters do not do a very good job of cleaning the forcing cone. In many instances the barrel would be clean and the forcing cone would require a good bit of work with JB bore cleaner and a Lewis lead remover. I can see where this could lead to premature failure of the forcing cone under the added stress when firing high pressure, high velocity magnum loads.
What Joe said! Seeing how they dont make em anymore I tend to shoot reduced loads in my 19's, but if I feel the need for more horse power I will shoot the good stuff.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:26 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Once again...


K Frame S&Ws with .357 Magnum ammo?

76. There are many stories about Model 19s cracking the forcing cones. Actual guns observed failing in this fashion are relatively few. But it does happen. One police armorer stated that he saw a number of such failures and noted that all of the guns were dirty. His theory is that accumulated carbon deposits can create “hot spots” that may damage the barrel upon firing (so keeping the barrel spotlessly clean might eliminate the problem). He observed that several of the guns failed using 158 grain 357 ammo and one M19 cracked from using .38 Special ammo which sort of undermines the popular belief that it is the hot 125 grain Magnum loads causing the problem. I have noticed that a large percentage (certainly most if not a preponderance) of the failed guns were 19-5s. These were crush-fit barrels rather than the earlier pinned models. I suspect that these new barrels were often defective in material or installation, causing the cracking. Indeed, numerous reports of crushed fit &SW barrels experiencing other problems have surfaced supporting the notion of the barrels being suspect. I have a 2.5” M19-3 made in 1970 and carried by a federal officer for 18 years. When I bought it, he said it had never been fired with anything other than 125 grain full Magnum loads and that’s all I shoot in it. So far, no problems.

PS: The stainless steel models (66 & 65) do not appear to be prone to this phenomenon at all.

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Old 03-13-2011, 04:33 PM
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe in SC View Post
I'd probably avoid shooting those light rounds and just purchase some heavier stuff if I needed to shoot magnums. Replacement barrels for a 66 might be an issue in the future (may already be hard to come by, I just don't know).

I have read articles by Brian Pearce in Handloader that indicates that he believes the split forcing cone issue in K-frame magnum revolvers can be attributed to a build-up of fouling in the forcing cone. I don't remember exactly but I would think he's talking about lead fouling. I get the feeling from reading his (Brian Pearce) stuff over the years that he is probably the most knowledgable gunwriter out there right now. That's my take on it.

I have handled and cleaned a lot of handguns (used to detail cop trade-in guns for a friend who owned a gunshop) and from this experience I can tell you that a lot of shooters do not do a very good job of cleaning the forcing cone. In many instances the barrel would be clean and the forcing cone would require a good bit of work with JB bore cleaner and a Lewis lead remover. I can see where this could lead to premature failure of the forcing cone under the added stress when firing high pressure, high velocity magnum loads.
Good points Joe. Cleaning of a persons revolver is very important. I do it after every range session. The build up of carbon and lead in the forcing cone and cylinders if not cleaned will reduce the reliablity of the revolver. But I still believe shooting 140 gr or higher 357 magnum will not hurt a model 66 or any of the other K frame magnums. I shoot a lot of blazer 158 gr 357 magnum hollow points in all my magnums. Its cheap and accurate and won't hurt a persons revolver. Velocity is in the neighborhood of 1100 to 1200 fps. This round is tame compared to the full house 357 magnums.
Howard
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:18 PM
Sylvaticus Sylvaticus is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Default Bill Jordan had it right

When he suggested that S&W make a K-frame .357 Magnum, Bill Jordan was thinking in terms of 100 - 250 rounds or so of full-power stuff being put through the average gun. The rest would be .38 Special. I've read this in several places, had it confirmed years ago in a reply to a question I submitted to the NRA, and also heard it from a good friend who knew Harlon Carter very well (who was a Border Patrol buddy of Jordan's). As metallurgy and heat-treatment in particular have improved over the years, it has become possible to up that number of .357s. But the K-frame is still only a part-time .357 Magnum when compared to a M27 or M28.

Regarding bullet weight, the 158 grain .357 Magnum loads have finally come into their own; for a long time, their robust construction made them much more suitable for hunting than self-defense. Some are still constructed too heavily. But as with the 9mm, modern bullet design has changed the entire game, and shooters have never had such a wide range of bullets weights to choose from for effective self-defense.

(Also with regard to bullet weight: regardless of the cumulative effect on the lighter-framed handguns, the street reputation of the .357 was historically made and still rests on the classic 125 grain loadings. Those were the manstoppers that Jordan and others had in mind and wanted to make available in a wider range of service handguns, and for an excellent reason: they got the job done. In my opinion, they remain a great, proven choice today.)

The K-frames, however, can shine with the right combination of barrel length, velocity, and bullet weight, all without "going magnum."

Personally, I've carried an M14 (factory tuned) as a service sidearm with the the 158 grain LSWCHP, and never once felt under-armed; the six-inch barrel gave needed extra velocity, and the sight radius meant that even quick rough alignment was sufficient for almost any situation. Swift follow-up shots were never a problem either! For personal, off-duty self-defense, I worked up a handload (I forget the powder) for the same bullet, which chronographed at a tad over 940 fps. Surprisingly, it wasn't listed as +p, but certainly was on or slightly over that borderline.

My ideal would be the same weight bullet, jacketed but a reliable expander, moving out at 1000 to 1050 fps, sort of a .38 mini-magnum. But I would need an M19 for that job.

In the end, it would seem that one should respect a firearm's limitations. If you want to shoot more magnum loads, please -get a magnum. Even + p loads are harder on the older K-frames than standard pressure loads (here I am speaking only of handguns factory certified as safe to use + p loads). "Over-loading" has been the cause of frame distortion and damage of too many fine firearms, leading to a sad early retirement which could have been avoided.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:54 PM
Sylvaticus Sylvaticus is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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Default Muzle energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
As for your question regarding +P ammo, that won't be a problem, by SAAMI specs. almost any 38 +P you can find will generate only about 250 ft.lbs. of muzzle energy and that's not even close to the 700 ft.lbs. that a hot 357 Magnum commercial loading can generate..
In the interest of accuracy: I do believe you underestimate the energy of the .38 Special and overestimate that of the .357 magnum. While I lost my extensive chronograph data due to a hard drive failure (idiotically, NOW I back everything up TWICE), with 4- and 6-inch barrels in several different handguns, I chronographed dozens of loads, commercial and homemade, and the calculated energy for the .38 Special centered around 280 ft-lbs on average, give or take, while .357 Magnums ran in the upper 400 range into the mid to high 500 ft-lb range. I am not sure I saw any 600 ft-lb rounds in the .357 mag, but that was back in the late 1990s so my memory may be faulty. I only saw 700 ft-lbs and above in .41 Magnum. I still believe an 8-inch+ barrel would be needed to deliver 600 to 700 ft-lbs.

Bullet weight, of course, along with barrel length, were key to finding the best velocities for each cartridge. Wish I could supply the exact data, as I spent some hot SC afternoons gathering it all!

Most factory data were misleading unless shot from actual handguns and not test barrels.

3" and shorter barrels cut significantly into .38 Special velocities, less so into the .357 Magnum.

Best wishes,
Brian
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Old 07-06-2017, 03:11 PM
Eddietruett Eddietruett is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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[QUOTE=scooter123;135868379]It's hard to predict if they will crack the barrel. I've read posts by some who have claimed that they had cracked the forcing cone with less that one full box of the Super Vel ammo back in the 70's. Now, on a positive note, I strongly doubt that your WWB is loaded anywhere near the power levels of that old Super Vel. One thing to try is looking for the ballistic data for that WWB, if the muzzle energy is 500 ft.lbs. or less it's likely to be harmless. Same thing in regards to that Remington JSP.

However, if you want to be 100% safe, regard that particular lot of ammo in your posession as a reason to purchase a 686 or 627. Come on, admit it, you really do need another 357 Magnum, one just isn't enough.

I agree with scooter123. Buy an L or N frame. Buying a new gun because you already have ammo is certainly a justifiable reason. I have bought guns using poorer excuses than that!
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Old 07-06-2017, 03:22 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
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Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers? Shooting lighter 357M ammo in K frame revolvers?  
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I have read the first memo's put out by S&W . It said to shoot what the gun was designed for , " 158 gr or heavier " bullets . I took the factory at their word . I put many top end loaded 180 gr cast bullets down a 19-5 , 4" barrel and the Lyman 358429 173 gr " Keith " bullet . Today I just don't push my K-frames as hard as I used to . I don't shoot 38spl's . I load a nice mid range 357 magnum load using a 158 gr swc . Barrels are no longer available from the factory so I"m not going to hot rod them. I have several L-frame and a couple of N-frame 357's for that .
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