I've got a nice early 90's Model 60 all stainless steel .38 Special and just bought a new 637-2 Airweight .38 Special. My question is: How is it that the Model 60 is not +P rated, yet this new 637-2 Airweught is so rated. I can't figure it out, or is it that S&W just didn't use the +P rating as a marketing description in the early 90's?

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NRA PATRIOT BENEFACTOR LIFE

THEY DID NOT MARKET THEIR GUNS WITH THE + p rating back then.
BUT YOUR GUN WILL HANDLE THE +P ROUNDS, ACCTUALLY THE FACTORY +PS ARE NOT ALL THAT HOT OF A LOAD.

THe factory has changed heat treating and the design varies a little internally in the yoke area. New ones are also made on a longer, reinforced J- Magnum frame. I think that dates from around M-60-9 or 10. The .357 examples are in that or a later range.

The factory advised me that any M-60 from the -4 on is Rated for Plus P.

I didn't ask about blued or nickel guns, or about lightweight ones.

I carry an old S&W Chief's day to day, with 5 Winchester Plus P .38spec Silvertips in it. I know exactly where this old gun will hit with them too, but, for everyday practice I only use .38 spec 148gr LWC's over a mild to moderate load of Unique.

If you want to shoot heavy .38spec/.357mag loads as a steady diet, I'd pick up one of the factory S&W mod 60's that started off as a .357 mag. Just an old man's thoughts.I've heard so many versions on whether the .38spec S&W mod 60 is the same as the .357mag guns, that I do not know.

Well, for gosh sakes...Just LOOK at the frames. The .357 ones are all on the later J-Magnum frame!

+1 and very true but the 125 grain +P's are much different then the 158 grain that the earily J frames were designed for. My gunsmith told me on my 5 screw pre model 36 that I should practice with all 158 grain bullets I wanted and if I wanted to carry 125 grain +P ammo it was OK but not to shoot a lot of them in practice with the revolver.

That said, I believe it's the high velocity lighter weight bullet that actually hurts the gun and causes the problems and not neccessarily that it has the +P rating. S&W even had K frames suffering problems with the 125 grain 357 magnum ammo and that's why they brought out the L frame.

According to a couple of threads by a couple of highly regarded members here, the +p ammo from the major manufacturers just isn't really "high velocity," even in the lighter weight bullets. A 125 grain jacketed bullet at 900fps out of a 4" k-frame just isn't really much of a "high velocity" load.

I carry BB 158 grain gas-checked +P in my two and three inch all-steel j-frames. The newest one is a Model 60 from about 1977. I figure that a 158 grain soft-lead hollow-point bullet at a tad over 1000fps (reported by the BB people as well as the two esteemed members who did the work on testing the various loads) makes a 2" Model 60 (or any j-frame) a very viable self defense option.

The BB loads actually are not that punishing to the shooter, either. For whatever reason, I found them more comfortable in my j-frame guns than in my k-frames.

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Georgia On My Mind

I'm not even going to bother. The myth of +P obviously cannot be overcome. A member on another forum is worried that +P ammo will damage his 357 Magnum. It's simply not possible to overcome such raging ignorance.

If you want to shoot +P loads by 50 years shooting experience tells to go up.
If you shoot .38 Special buy a .357 Magnum.
If you shoot .44 Special buy a .44 Magnum
By going this route you can go +P loads and Magnum loads without the danger of blowing the gun up.

GOOD ADVICE...........

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

EXCEPT... accuracy and velocity is slightly compromised when shooting the shorter 38s and 44s in the longer Magnum chambers. Also, after doing such shooting the cleaning is a bit more difficult and more urgently needed as residue builds up in the chambers causing a ring that can prevent subsequent loading of the Magnum ammo.

Personally, I shoot 38s in 38s; 44 Specials in 44 Specials; 357s in 357s and 44 Magnums in 44 Magnums.

Call me kooky...

As for worrying about +P ammo, I don't. I know it to be a mild target load. I reject the marketing hype and resulting hysteria. The specs on +P show it to be a 125@925. C'mon... a 125@925 is hot? Even warm? Pfffft!

There's an old thread here where a member shot 1000 rounds of +p from an old M12 (Airweight K Frame) that is not rated for +p.

No measurable wear on the M12.

It's a great read.

Why, and by how much will accuracy be deminished?

I understand how this wold be an issue, but only if you intend to shoot .357 Magnum ammo after shooting .38 spl. If you never shoot .357 Magnum ammo, then I cannot see how this would be an issue.

I believe that the .357 Magnum round is one of the most effective handgun rounds available. However, I also believe that less than 1% of gunowners will ever train enough to be proficient in its use.

Sadly, I am not in that 1%. So I just stick with .38 spl out of my .357 Magnum.

For you 1% who can shoot .357 Magnum, I say bravo for you.

To the original poster, if you really want to shoot +P, just find yourself a "cosmetically challenged" Model 36 for a reasonal price and shoot to your heart's content.

I just don't see how you could come to this conclusion. You must be shooting with a different type of person than I shoot with. I don't shoot in competition, and I am not in Law Enforcement, but the folks I shoot with who own .357 revolvers are just about all pretty proficient with them.

Maybe your 1% figure is a little hyperbole?

Is your .357 a K-frame or an N-frame? I can understand shooting mostly .38s in a K-frame, because some loads can get pretty uncomfortable, but an N-frame is pretty much a pussycat with most factory .357 loads. There are a bunch of handgun hunters around here who are proficient with full-house .44 Magnum loads in Rugers, Contenders, and some S&Ws.

A .357 in a full-size revolver just isn't that much problem to learn to control.

On edit: if you are talking about .357 out of one of the j-frames chambered for it, then you are dead on. Since this is what the thread was about in the beginning, maybe that is what you are referencing.

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Georgia On My Mind

redlevel,

Yes, I am referring to J-frames and self-defense situations.

If you can carry an N-frame for self-defense purposes, more power to you!

I assume, but don't know as a fact, that handgun hunters are probably using a revolver that weighs in at over 40 ounces and are probably using some type of target grips (stocks). They probably also practice shooting a single round and probably in single action.

I cannot comment on how a .357 Magnum feels out of an L-frame or an N-frame as I have never shot them out of those types of revolvers. I've shot .357 out of my Model 66 (once) and a friend's Model 640-1 (once) and decided that I would not do it again.

So, "Does size matter?"

Marketing is based on the answer, "Yes!" But does it?

I advocate shot placement as the "prime directive." No matter the weapon or the ammo, shot placement requires intelligent, diligent practice. Period. Standard velocity hits trump +P misses day in and day out.

I agree, for once, with SP: "Personally, I shoot 38s in 38s; ...; 357s in 357s...."

By the time a shooter achieves true proficiency with standard .38 Spec. ammo in their chosen handgun they will be "over" the +P hyperbole or they will simply move up to .357 Magnum or a larger caliber.

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WyoStillhunter

S&W has been remarkably inconsistent in their markings, leading to much confusion about whether a particular model is factory-rated for +P. As I mentioned in another thread last month, the Model 640 is a good example of this. The first ones were all marked as "Tested for +P+", and they even mentioned that in their ads for the gun. They later dropped the +P+ markings without adding any +P marking, leading people to believe that a model that was advertised as being suitable for +P+ was now, without any engineering changes at all, not to be used even with lower-powered +P ammo!

Something similar happened with the limited reintroduction of the Model 37 in 2005 and 2008. Many were shipped with barrels marked .38 Special +P, while many others in the same production runs just said .38 Special. That led to lots of confusion and conflicting opinions about whether or not the guns were suitable for use with +P.

Personally, I would be comfortable shooting +P ammo in any all-steel S&W J-frame built in the 1990's (like the OP's Model 60), assuming of course that the gun is in good original condition, unaltered and undamaged.

SAAMI +P doesn't blow up guns.....it is well under proof pressures. it MAY noticably accellerate wear on the revolver..... How many "worn out" .38 specials have YOU seen? (Me neither.) The truth is that 1. Real +P loads are not dangerous in any sound .38 special built in the last 65 years. 2. Much +P labeled ammo is unlikely to even be near the +P pressure limits(It seems to be a marketing tool for some manufacturers rather than a real higher pressure loading ). 3. Hardly anyone shoots enough to loosen up a decent gun (If you do then you have spent more on ammo than the price of the gun). 4.Worn revolvers can be 'smithed back into specs.

I think some folks on here need to re-read SP's excellent article on +P ammunition. After that, if you want some real +P fodder for your .38spl. revolver I suggest you lay down the funds for some of Buffalo Bores .38Spl SWCHP+P. They use a very low birneal hardness lead SWCHP with gascheck. It may not have any street proof yet, but their velocity scores have been proven by others on here, and with the softness of the lead used they do expand.

Can someone please post a link? I haven't seen this article.

Thank you.

Regular or +P. Not a big difference in power out of a snub and your 60 should easily handle the +P's. If I'm carrying a .357 revolver as my carry weapon it's loaded with .357 Speer GD's in 158 grains.

It all comes down to shot placement with ANY self defense caliber. A good COM hit or two beats a miss or a non lethal shot with any caliber.

JMO

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V/R
Roger / SG

Broadside-

Shooting with Hobie

Thanks SP, I couldn't remember where it was you posted before!

I didn't post it there. The blogger contacted me and asked permission to post it on his site.

Roger that, its still one of the best reads on +P ammo out there!!! I refer folks there all the time when this age old discussion comes up!

Thank you.

Yes, we don't want to lose it! Good info SP!

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Sincerely,
Hobie

Excellent article, but I did not see it addressing Airweights. I am looking to get an Airweight J-Frame and wanted to use the BB 158gr +P in it. I have a line on an older gen 442, but do not know whether it can take these loads.

After dealing with my own cracked frame 637, seeing multiple cracked frame 12's, and reading up on the issue... I think it has more to do if the barrel was stressed into the frame too much that leads to the crack. So if you shoot only standard pressure ammo it should be unlikely that your frame cracks. The more you stress the frame with higher pressure ammo or more velocity dump from bullet impact on forcing cone then the more likely you are to crack the frame. With all the different tests available in NDT labs I would have thought this would be easy to check for on the Assembly line and set it up right. Obviously I'm missing something in that theory.

this should help some..... it did for me.....

.38 Special - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

if you scroll to the bottom there is a nice little chart of teh chamber pressures of various rounds. .38spcl is listed at 17k PSI, with +P being 20k PSI, adn .357 being around 35k PSI.

looks like +p is about 17% higher pressure, and .357 is over 100% higher pressure.

i would fair to say that +p and standard pressure are almost the same

the article also states that +p is very close to what standard ammo used to be.

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.38 Chiefs Special Model 36-1

The article DID address Airweights, since Airweights (all of them, regardless of date of manufacture, assuming the cylinders are steel) are chambered for standard pressure .38 Special, and +P only means that pressures are standard, not reduced, and come nowhere near the limit of what the gun can structurally tolerate. Would you want to do your target shooting with +P in your non-+P rated Airweight J-Frame? Probably not, as it will accelerate wear. You don't, however, need to worry about carrying that load and having it put the gun out of commission at the very time you need it to save your life. They're just not that hot.

My 1990-built 640 no-dash is laser etched inside the frame "Tested For +P+". I'm not going to shoot +P+ in it--have no reason to even if I could find it--but you needn't worry about your M60.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Well, it's probably not possible to overcome it, but one can ridicule it. Did his .357 have a model number, or was it pre-57? Right on this forum, I have asked whether my 520 is safe with +P, and people have seriously called me stupid (rather than calling me seriously stupid, which is a whole 'nother thing). Remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, unless you're a Texan.