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S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 3-Screw PINNED Barrel SWING-OUT Cylinder Hand Ejectors WITH Model Numbers


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Old 05-25-2011, 01:05 PM
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Hi Guys , does anyone know the time frame on when the Cal. Highway Patrol switcthed fro 6 inch revolvers to 4 inch ??

Last edited by robbt; 05-25-2011 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:42 PM
Reloader Fred Reloader Fred is offline
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I don't know the exact time frame, but I did buy my K-38 that I made into a PPC gun from a CHP officer in 1977. He had bought it from the department, so it would have been sometime prior to that. I also bought one of the 4" stainless .38's they were issued prior to the Model 4006. I now also have one of the old CHP 4006's.

Hope this helps.

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Old 05-25-2011, 05:38 PM
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I don't know the exact date. But CHP in California was carrying the model 28-2 4 inch in 1970. I know this because of the Newhaul massacre that happen that year. I would say around early to mid sixties is when California CHP switched from 6 inch to 4 inch.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:26 PM
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I have seen early-mid 80's production 6" stainless Ruger Security Sixes chambered for .38 Special with the "CHP" stamp. These guns are very rare and I don't know if they were ever issued, but they are out there and at some point CHP intended to issue a 6" revolver into the 1980's. I have never handled one, but the features of these Sec. Sixes show post 1982 prduction, if not later just going by the scalloped recoil shield, which Ruger did not start until late '82-83. Not my gun but pulled from an old ended GB auction.




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Old 05-26-2011, 04:47 PM
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A friend told me that the CHP first started issuing weapons in 1968. The class before my friend were issued 6” Colt's in 38SPL. My friend was issued an S&W model 14 as were other classes after that.

Based on the above post, it looks like the CHP also issued some Rugers.

Patrolman could also buy and carry their own 6” revolvers. To my friends knowledge, the CHP never issued a 357 magnum revolver. The CHP never wanted patrolmen to use 357 ammo even if their revolver was a 357. It was not a good idea to have 357mag ammo during an inspection. That did not stop patrolman from using 357 ammo while on patrol.

The CHP also issued S&W 2” model 60’s in the early 1980’s to patrolman working auto theft and other investigation jobs.

When the CHP started issuing the S&W model 68, they also gave the patrolman the choice of an S&W model 67. That would be the first time the CHP issued a 4” revolver.

This could have been in the late 1970’s as S&W started making the model 68 in 1977 for the CHP.
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Old 05-26-2011, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennethg View Post
A friend told me that the CHP first started issuing weapons in 1968. The class before my friend were issued 6” Colt's in 38SPL. My friend was issued an S&W model 14 as were other classes after that.

Based on the above post, it looks like the CHP also issued some Rugers.

Patrolman could also buy and carry their own 6” revolvers. To my friends knowledge, the CHP never issued a 357 magnum revolver. The CHP never wanted patrolmen to use 357 ammo even if their revolver was a 357. It was not a good idea to have 357mag ammo during an inspection. That did not stop patrolman from using 357 ammo while on patrol.

The CHP also issued S&W 2” model 60’s in the early 1980’s to patrolman working auto theft and other investigation jobs.

When the CHP started issuing the S&W model 68, they also gave the patrolman the choice of an S&W model 67. That would be the first time the CHP issued a 4” revolver.

This could have been in the late 1970’s as S&W started making the model 68 in 1977 for the CHP.
According to the events surrounding the 1970 Newhall Massacra the officers killed were all carrying model 28 4 inch revolvers loaded with actual 357 magnum rounds. One of the issues after the shooting was that officers trained and qualified with 38 specials but carried 357 magnums for duty. Because the officers were not experienced enough and did not fire a lot of 357 magnums round in there revolvers the CHP decided to issue only 38 specials to officers for duty after the shooting. Plus CHP did not issue or let officers have speedloaders. One of the findings from the shooting indicated that if the officer would of had a speedloader instead of having to load one round at a time this might have made a difference in saving his life. He was one of the officers killed. The tragic event happened on my birthday in 1970. I was twenty years old. I also lived very close to Newhall. It was a sad day. Here is a link on the whole shooting.
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Newhall massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:46 PM
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No, one of the officers, I believe Frago, was carrying a Colt Python. Since he was the first shot and died instantly, Twinning retrieved Frago's Python and it was found with his body after he committed suicide later on the 6th. See details at several web sites, like CHP museum.
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:55 PM
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hi Guys , in many pictures in the book Combat Shooting for police , showing a active CHP patrolman with a model 28 with 6 inch barrel, a really neat book
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Old 08-31-2017, 02:21 PM
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I seem to recall seeing re-stamped, used 6" Model 68's in .38 Special, in gun shops in Reseda, CA back in the early '90's. The S&W Standard Catalog says they were made from '77-'88.

They were re-stamped from CHP to OHB. Folklore has it California didn't want it known that the state had re-sold them.

Bill

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Old 08-31-2017, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
I don't know the exact date. But CHP in California was carrying the model 28-2 4 inch in 1970. I know this because of the Newhaul massacre that happen that year. I would say around early to mid sixties is when California CHP switched from 6 inch to 4 inch.
Howard
I thought (?) that the CHP Officers involved in the Newhall Incident was armed with 6" Colt Pythons loaded with .357 Magnum ammo plus 12 gauge Shotguns.
The issued at the time was that CHP qualified with .38 Special l Wad cutters but carried .357 Magnum ammo on duty.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:33 PM
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What did they carry on CHIPS and when was it on TV? That's probably a clue.

I saw one in, Gun World with a six-inch Python, but probably in the 1960's.

The M-4006 is out of production. What does CHP use now?
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:14 PM
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Newhall incident - Wikipedia

I never heard of the new hall incident.

Last edited by BigBill; 08-31-2017 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
According to the events surrounding the 1970 Newhall Massacra the officers killed were all carrying model 28 4 inch revolvers loaded with actual 357 magnum rounds....
Two officers carried Colt Pythons, one a Model 19-2, and one a Colt Officers Model Match in .38 Special. All had 6" barrels.

I recommend this book for a thorough analysis of the incident and the dispelling of a lot of the "facts" that float around. It also tells you all there is to know about the history of CHP sidearms:



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Old 09-01-2017, 08:43 AM
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The "Newhall Incident" and years later the "Miami Shootout" seems to be somewhat similar in that two heavily armed BGs took on several LEOs
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:39 PM
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The "Newhall Incident" and years later the "Miami Shootout" seems to be somewhat similar in that two heavily armed BGs took on several LEOs
Actually, I think it's unfortunate that Newhall has been somewhat overshadowed by Miami as the "big notorious shootout".

Obviously, Miami was a fascinating event, but it was also quite extraordinary in its circumstances. The dynamics of the "felony stop" itself, resulting in a bumper car derby that positioned vehicles every which way creating the opposite of a controlled situation, the presence of multiple agents, two bad guys armed with both long guns (including the Mini-14 which did most of the damage) and sidearms and military training, created a quite unique environment unlikely to repeat itself. The "lessons" to be learned, in my opinion, are frequently oversold.

Newhall was the opposite. A "regular" non-felony traffic stop, at night but in a well-lit location, the initial CHP unit positioned behind the suspects' vehicle, the officers approaching from behind, including one from the right side in what should be an overwatch position ... and yet everything went horribly wrong in a very short time.

The CHP officers weren't outgunned, they were surprised and outfought, and that can happen to anyone. In a very short time, four officers were dead and two perpetrators on the run barely scratched. Newhall was a situation officers encounter much more often than a Miami-style battle. Studying how this can go sideways is much more important that, for example the religious wars over bullet types and calibers spawned by Miami.
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:00 PM
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I have a 1977 vintage 28-2 6" that I bought a couple years ago.

The guy I bought it from claimed he got it from a retired CHP officer.

That might be BS given that 1977 is late in the revolver era, and I think the CHP was issuing K frames.

The gun has ridden many miles in a holster given the bluing wear. But the action an barrel is very good. This is probably typical of a CHP officers gun.

It had Pachmayrs on it when I got it, but I figured it needed an upgrade in it's retirement -- so I put on Cocobolo Ahrends grips.

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Old 09-02-2017, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
What did they carry on CHIPS and when was it on TV? That's probably a clue.

I saw one in, Gun World with a six-inch Python, but probably in the 1960's.

The M-4006 is out of production. What does CHP use now?
CHIPs carried four inch barrel Colt Pythons
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:32 AM
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I have the book "the Newhall Incident" and I thought it showed the killer's guns after the one guy killed himself. But I must have seen it online somewhere. But among them was the 6" blued Python taken from one of the first two CHPs to confront them. This book written by Chief john Anderson has sad graphic photos that are really hard to look at.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
What did they carry on CHIPS and when was it on TV? That's probably a clue.

I saw one in, Gun World with a six-inch Python, but probably in the 1960's.

The M-4006 is out of production. What does CHP use now?
For most of their history, there was no issue revolver, just specifications like 6" barrel (also 4" starting in the 1970s), Colt, S&W and later also Ruger, caliber .38/.357. Duty ammo was also not prescribed until fairly late in the revolver era, I think the 1970s/80s, when the FBI load in .38 Spl. became standard.

After a few decades with the 4006 they recently switched to the M&P 40 platform.

I'm familiar with this in some detail due to a friend who is a retired CA state LEO (not CHP), and since Sacramento loves standardization, whatever CHP got, they got, like it or not.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:21 AM
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Don't know if Brandishing a firearm ( reason for stop) was felony in Cali at the time but stopping a vehicle whose occupants are known to be armed should not be treated as
a "regular" stop, even though there are no routine stops.
A very sad day in American Law Enforcement History ! One that gave rise to the modern Officer Survival movement.
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Old 01-29-2022, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
I don't know the exact date. But CHP in California was carrying the model 28-2 4 inch in 1970. I know this because of the Newhaul massacre that happen that year. I would say around early to mid sixties is when California CHP switched from 6 inch to 4 inch.
Howard
My Dad graduated CHP academy in 1969 and was issued a K38 6" then carried a Model 19 6", then a 686 6'. He was on the CHP for almost 40 years and never carried a 4". EVER.
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Old 01-29-2022, 06:34 AM
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CHIPs carried four inch barrel Colt Pythons
Another reason that show was a joke.
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Old 01-29-2022, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Absalom View Post
For most of their history, there was no issue revolver, just specifications like 6" barrel (also 4" starting in the 1970s), Colt, S&W and later also Ruger, caliber .38/.357. Duty ammo was also not prescribed until fairly late in the revolver era, I think the 1970s/80s, when the FBI load in .38 Spl. became standard.

After a few decades with the 4006 they recently switched to the M&P 40 platform.

I'm familiar with this in some detail due to a friend who is a retired CA state LEO (not CHP), and since Sacramento loves standardization, whatever CHP got, they got, like it or not.
My Dad graduated the CHP academy in 1969 and was ISSUED a K38 6". No officer i ever saw had a 4" anything, and my old man confirms. I know this because he was on the Highway Patrol for just shy of 40 years, and he is my Dad....therefore gospel.
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Old 01-29-2022, 06:54 AM
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... Duty ammo was also not prescribed until fairly late in the revolver era, I think the 1970s/80s, when the FBI load in .38 Spl. became standard...
CHP went to the .38 Special +P+ Treasury Load (evidently designed for Air Marshals). CHP made a training film that illustrated how well it performed and the agency I’m retired from adopted it and we carried it (in our M28’s) until we went to auto pistols.

BTW, in 1970 I believe brandishing a firearm was a misdemeanor in California.
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Old 01-29-2022, 09:58 AM
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Personally, I would be very surprised to hear that CHP (or any large law enforcement agency for that matter) issued Colt Pythons. Way too expensive and finicky for most departments and their armorers. If the CHP switched to shorter barrel revolvers, I would think that it would have been around the same time as LAPD ("Adam 12").
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Old 01-29-2022, 12:31 PM
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My Dad graduated the CHP academy in 1969 and was ISSUED a K38 6". No officer i ever saw had a 4" anything, and my old man confirms. I know this because he was on the Highway Patrol for just shy of 40 years, and he is my Dad....therefore gospel.
No disrespect to your or your old man’s memory, but besides the historical record, there are plenty of the 4” Model 67 with the CHP stamp (or OHB overstamp) floating around the used-gun market, so these are a thing, although the 6” Model 68 was the more popular option.


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If the CHP switched to shorter barrel revolvers, I would think that it would have been around the same time as LAPD ("Adam 12").
The “switch” happened in 1977 with the issuance of the Models 67 and 68. But it wasn’t really a switch, as guns in service were grandfathered in.

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Old 01-29-2022, 01:53 PM
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In his well documented Newhall Shooting - A Tactical Analysis Mike Wood lists 2 6 inch Pythons, a 6 inch 19-2 and a 6 inch Colt Officers Model Match as the arms of the deceased troopers. One of the killers had a 4 inch 28 the other a M38 at the start. His appendices document CHP arms and equipment before and since Newhall.

Both of the killers and a Good Samaritan were in possession of a CHP revolver by the time the shooting stopped.
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Old 02-02-2022, 07:18 PM
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The knowledge base on this forum is amazing. I always find it fascinating the history of firearms, and law enforcement stunning. I thank all of you for your willingness to share.
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Old 02-02-2022, 09:13 PM
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I once saw a CHP vehicle camera capture an officer getting overpowered by a drug runner during a traffic stop up near San Luis Obispo. The officer almost cleared leather but his 6" barrel I think made the difference in not getting his gun into play before the fatal attack. Very disturbing. Back in the day my friend carried a 4" model 19 on duty. He always swore by that size for a fast draw.
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Old 02-02-2022, 10:09 PM
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Watch this movie: In The Line Of Duty: The FBI Murders In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders (TV Movie 1988) - IMDb The shoot out scene is very close to how it went down. I used the FBI's film on the shoot out when I taught a firearms course. It was very technical and dry. When I showed the shoot out portion of the movie the students paid attention. The FBI was not ready for the buzz saw that they ran into and his name was Platt.

I was stationed in Calif. at a Marine Barracks and we had 22 law enforcement agencies that used our ranges. Everybody from the Secret Service to the local PD's. More than once the New Hall Incident came up. This was in the mid 80's and a lot of the officers were around when it went down. One of the things that I heard was the officers was that due to the Incident reloading training had changed
"In the aftermath of the Newhall shooting, although this was not based on the actions of any officer involved in the incident, the CHP modified their training to eliminate the practice of "pocketing brass" on the range (the act of picking up spent cartridge cases before reloading with fresh rounds). Several witnesses, including officers who responded to aid the four officers, said no brass casings were found in Officer Pence's clothing. One of the first responders, CHP Sergeant Harry Ingold, said he found six brass cases on the ground next to the driver's door of Pence's and Alleyn's cruiser indicating that prior to being killed, Pence had dumped his spent brass casings on the ground before reloading his revolver. This was confirmed by CHP Chief John Anderson in his book The Newhall Incident: America's Worst Cop Massacre.["
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Old 02-03-2022, 10:03 PM
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Watch this movie: In The Line Of Duty: The FBI Murders In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders (TV Movie 1988) - IMDb The shoot out scene is very close to how it went down.
That film got me first interested in the Miami shoot-out. It‘s very well made for a TV production, although they do take some liberties. Most obviously: Platt‘s Mini-14 was not fully automatic.
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Old 02-03-2022, 10:41 PM
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That film got me first interested in the Miami shoot-out. It‘s very well made for a TV production, although they do take some liberties. Most obviously: Platt‘s Mini-14 was not fully automatic.
If you watch the FBI's own training film and then the movie they are very close.
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