My 1979 25-5 came with these stocks. In a different thread I was told these aren't original to the gun for that time period with that speed loader cutaway. Well, I'm looking at a 1972 era 27-2 for sale that has these exact stocks, too. I assumed this style were from the 80's but are they right for an early 70's gun? When were S&W's shipped with these stocks?
Thanks ahead of time.

Speedloaders weren't even available yet in 1979. To my knowledge they came out in late 1981 or 1982. I think the stocks on your gun are from the wrong era. That 1972 27-2 you are looking at definately WOULD NOT have speedloader cutout targets, someone has switched them out.

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Dick

I carried Dade speed loaders for my Model 58 in the 70's

Oh really? Show us some pictures with serial numbers.
BTW, his is a 25-5 not a 27-5.

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Dick

Can you provide some details of this statement?

These stocks date to November 1979 and would also be correct for your 25-5. I am not sure, but I have thought the speedloader cut out appeared in 82/83.

Bill

My two 24-3's have the original footballs and they are indeed stamped in ink "1983". There was no markings on the ones pictured on this .45.

To All!!

Deleted post due to too much controversy as to what S&W did or didn't do!! I have seen more than my fair share that had this style grip prior to 1980 to not have been available in the time-frame I posted!! Sorry to have caused such an uproar!!

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Masterpiece

Doc44. And I thought these stocks were ugly???? M17-3, 1977. Big Larry

No controversy or uproar. Did you consider they may have been changed out for later grips? As and example, HKS, the most popular speedloader's patent was not even issued until May 1980, Safariland came on board much later. True there were some off brands like Dades and others out before then, with patents back as far as 1946, but the idea of putting speedloader cutouts on the grips had not caught on yet 'til late 1981 or 1982. Just show us some proof, no offense, no foul.

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Dick

I don't see the "controversy or uproar" that you speak of.
This Forum is about Hobby thru history and enjoyment. It's neat when someone teaches us something new.
Don't get your feelings hurt if someone is interested in your posts. Why comment in the first place if you don't want to be apart of a conversation?
Please stick around and "Spread the word"!!!

To All!!

Here is a Photo of the Pre-Eighties "Speedloader" Target Stocks taken from a *1978* S&W Catalog!! (See Date Code in Second Photo) Now before you start,I realize the Photo I'm posting is for K-Frames & not N-Frames as you are inquiring about,but as soon as I can come up with "Concrete" Documentation to their availability for N-Frames prior to the Eighties I'll post those Photos as well!! Just wanted to let everyone know these "Speedloader" Target Stocks were available earlier than the Eighties!!

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Masterpiece

I bought my Model 29 6.5 inch around 1974 or 1975. It has the speedloader cut target grips which came with the original wood presentation box. I have still have 3 speedloaders I bought for it at the time.

If you don't believe the memories of an old guy, watch Magnum Force (1973) again. Hal Holbrook make Clint Eastwood throw his 3 speedloaders out the car window.

I recall the early 80's when the change over to speed-loader cutouts occurred. I purchased a lot of N, L, and K frame guns during that time that were factory fresh and NIB. The significance is they haven't sifted through other peoples hands, and I still have almost all of them - intact and exactly as shipped. I'm writing this because I believe any "newbies" reading posts like this may be confused by the controversy....

The first cut-outs I can remember seeing were on two first month of production 686's.

Many people, especially law enforcement, were excited to see the new cut-outs as the old stocks really were a detriment to speed-loader use. Many people who preferred wood grips to the Pachmayr style immediately sought the new cut-out grips to replace their earlier "footballs", casually swapping grips without a second thought.

Today it's obvious this stocks issue can cause a lot of confusion as so many people have bought and sold these guns through the years. A few still remain NIB but somewhere along the way the original grips were exchanged for cut-outs with the gun still being portrayed as "original". It's reasonable to accept a subsequent owner is convinced the gun is "as shipped" from S&W, when in fact someone, perhaps wanting to keep an exceptionally beautiful set of grips, swapped them for others..

The functionality of the speed-loader cutouts accelerated the grip changes and along with it the concern for grip "correctness" . The guns were sold or traded not considering or understanding there would ever be any concern about the "correctness" of the grips... after all, they're all original S&W production... right?

Soon after the "L's" began showing up so did the cut-outs on the "K" and "N" frames. I have two Mod 66-1s that actually went the other way with stocks. Each gun, one a 4" in the 39K serial range and the other a 6" in the 60K area were both delivered NIB with "footballs," well into the time frame when they should have been delivered with cut-outs... The two 66's were a LE order directly from S&W and the possibility they could have been changed somewhere in a distribution chain was nil....

I've heard so many people be absolutely positive their earlier S&W came with the cut-outs and I can fully understand how they came to their conclusions. I've only heard from a couple, however, who were the original owners of their guns claim the guns were as delivered with cut-outs before the approximate 1980 arrival of the cut-outs...

Woulda been nice if the record keeping, production numbers, and other issues so important to "correctness" would have been kept through the years...

Just sayin' and JMHO

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Terry

TDC may be right. I am the original owner of my model 29, purchased new at a gun shop. Later I put a set of Pachmayr grips on it. I am not certain how much later. All that stuff is up at my farm so I do not have it handy for reference.

I did buy the speedloaders back in the mid 70's but can't swear I used them with the original grips without having them here to look at.

I think you are misconstruing the number in the picture is a date code unless it is stamped as a 1978 catalog. I'm looking at a S&W Instruction Sheet that has 01-1274-59 stamped on it, but it is not from 1974 because in another place on the same sheet it has a date code like this "S&W 3-67".

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Dick

I bought this 66-1 ser# 67K13xx new in 1980. It has the speedloader cutout grips. I know these are original, I don't have a pic of the other side unfortunately. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Well "Magnum Force" came out in 1973 and I know there are speedloaders used in that film...

To further add to the discussion there were target stocks made earlier than the 80's that were very similar to the speed-loader cut-outs but for a different purpose.

A couple of commemorative S&W's guns that come to mind were the 125 Anniversary Mod.25-3 in 1977 and the Texas Ranger which was introduced much earlier. Their cuts in the stocks were to display the commemorative symbols rather than to accommodate speed-loaders.... but those special features convinced some people the cut-outs were available on much earlier guns.... Guns like the one pictured below (mfg. 1977) have contributed to the speed-loader cut confusion..

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Terry

I have a Model 57 from 1974 that had these stocks on it when I bought it, but there is a 1985 stamp on the inside surface of the wood. I imagine the original stocks for my gun are long gone, worse luck. Most of its life it probably had goodyears on it; there was a light grime line on the left side that matches a high-rise rubber grip.

I eventually put some Kuracs on the gun; wise move. It is a fine target revolver.

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David Wilson

I just purchased this 25-5, made in 1980. I did not realize it had the wrong grips on it till I got home and removed them. They are dated 1988. The gun and grips are in excellent shape. I am OK with them.

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FWIW, I was almost suspended from my PD in 1977 because I carried non department issue HKS speed loaders in my jacket pocket. I had them at least a year or two prior to that. I also got in trouble for putting a set of Pachmayr rubber presentation grips on my Model 66 that same year.

Safariland first had the speed strips. A rubber like strip that had a hook on one end to hook the ends together. The strips were cut so ammo could be inserted in holes created on the inside surface. The end of the strip was pulled to dislodge the hook and strip the rounds that were partially in the cylinder. That was the first speed loader I used. I can attest to the fact they did not work well in very cold weather. These were replace by a neoprene cup line speed loader. the rounds were inserted into circular cuts in the outside of the cup. Insert rounds and peel the cup off and the rounds fell in the cylinder. Silicone spray greatl helped the rounds peel out of the cup. We were issued these in 1975. The Comp 1's came out sometime later, but were called that, I don't believe, until the comp ll's came out. Thus, there was a need for the cutout in the mid 70's. Whether they made one that early or not I don't know. The football relief grips interfered with insertion of the speed loader cups, but did not prevent their insertion.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Howdy,
I'm no expert, but I read Burp's question and the replies. I didn't know but I took in a June of 67 Guns and Ammo while eating a waffle and came across this.

If it can't be seen in the picture it is stated to be a 29 with issue stocks.
Thanks
Hope this adds to the confusion.
I still have no idea.
Thanks
Mike

That's an extractor relief or "football" cutout on those Model 29 stocks, which is a bit different from the later speedloader cutout.

For what it's worth, I recall an old brass HKS speedloader, perhaps a prototype, selling on one of the auction sites last year. This thing certainly predated the '80s (and the more modern plastic HKS speedloaders we're all familiar with).

Edit: just found this: Brass HKS speedloaders...

For what it is worth,

When I was hired as an LEO in Sept. 1978 I was issued a 66-1 in the 39K series. It had "football" stocks and was brand new. Later in March of 1979 I purchased my own 66-1 (41K) and it too had the "football" grips. When I took delivery of my 66, I instantly took the S&W grips off and replaced them with Hogue nylon stocks.

We were also issued two HKS Speedloaders and leather carriers for them. I did not see the factory speedloader cut grips on any S&W's (including the N frame) until a couple of years later.

This has probably been covered previously, but it is likely stocks with the speed loader cut-out were first made for K-frame revolvers and later N-frame revolvers.

I bought a 629-1 in 1982 (new) that had stocks with the relieved area on the left panel. I have a pair of N-frame stocks stamped 1984 that has the speed loader cut-out. Based on this, I assume the cut-out on N-frame stocks first appeared sometime in 1983.

Bill

A regular rebel, this guy!

Just kidding. My recollection matches with Iggy's (post #3) and Bill's (post #28). The first gun I had with the new style stocks was a brand new 586.

I do not believe the stocks on the OP's gun are OE, and a quick check of the ink stamp inside them would likely indicate a disparity between age of the revolver and age of the stocks. Absolutely no question they would not be correct for an early '70s 27-2.

I cannot remember exactly when I first got speedloaders for my Mod 29, but I do know I was carrying them on duty in 1976.

The Dade speedloader pouch was my favorite. I still have it I wore it just a few days ago...

I still have two of these purchased in 1974-75. They are brass colored but are aluminum. We had to grind away the top of the left grip for them to work.

I'm jumping in late here but the stocks in question are from the 80s. That is when they changed to the larger, round speedloader cut.
The foot ball cut was to keep the extraction of the cartridges from gouging the stocks.

Speedloaders were being worked on as early as 1917 with the half moon and full moon clips. The ones we know of today were not standardized until the early 70s.
Even dirty harry had speed loaders in his mid 70s movies. I carried speed loaders for my 29-2 starting in 1977.

Here's an early version from Revolver Cartridge Clif Corp of New York.
I would have to look it up but by the design I would think this one was late 40s or early 50s.

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The first speed loaders I ever had for a 44 Mag were the all rubber ones from Hunt Engineering.
I think those are the ones "Dirty Harry" used, as I think they were the first ones made and the only ones avialable at the time of the movie.

They are still my favorite for hunting as they do not "rattle" when walking.

The rubber on mine is getting old, a couple have torn, so I handle them carefully.

I used the Dade speedloaders for a while but if you drop one they loose rounds very easily.

Also the Safariland loaders are quieter than the HKS, but I think the HKS loaders are the most rugged. For a long time I carried the Safariland in my pocket when carrying the 44 Mag off duty, or on a Road Trip as i was afraid the knob would get twisted on the HKS in the pocket dumping the rounds.

However, I have had rounds come out of the Safariland when in the pocket, and the knob of ther HKS has never "twisted" while in the pocket...

Back in the early to mid 1970's, I worked at a local Michigan police department and saw a magazine article on the "6 Second Loader". I wrote the company and they sent me several for evaluation. I still have one of them, I gave the others to fellow officers to try. They were anodized aluminum and for a Model 10. The Patent number 3722125 stamped on the knob if checked on the internet indicates it was issued in 1973. I've always hung on to this loader.

I remember that we had to carry the speed loaders in our pants or jacket pocket as no one was making a duty belt holder for them at the time. My department issued the old fashioned double dump pouch that held 6 rounds in each one.

The HKS loaders worked with the standard grips on the model 10 but when I went to the Model 19 with the target grips I had to cut some the wood away to use the loader. Later I got a set of rubber grips and used these. I also used these Pachmeyer style grips from 1975-76 and on, when shooting competitive combat shooting. By then we had the HKS plastic loaders. By 1976-78 most everyone was going to the speed loader for duty carry.

I seem to remember the cut out S&W grips coming on guns in the late 1970's as I has left police work and was working in a gun shop and we sold lots and lots of S&W's.

I hope this doesn't add to the confusion.

I find threads like this interesting.

But I've often wondered.
Where are the original enployees who actually made these decissions for S&W? Are any still around? And why aren't the true collectors here picking there brains on why, when, how, etc. S&W did this and that?

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Watch & Pray

Here are a couple early HKS speedloaders (for Colt Python) I recently got, the same type pdcampy references above. Like he states, these are marked with patent number 3722125, which was filed by in 1971 and issued to in 1973 a Robert D. Switzer (the "S" in HKS?) of Fort Thomas, KY (a town right next to Dayton, where HKS is located).




These body of the loader is marked "6 SECOND RELOAD" in a circle followed by H.K.S. TOOL PRODUCTS CO. DAYTON KY. 41074

When I first saw photos of these a few years ago, I assumed they were brass but they are in fact aluminum with a gold-color anodizing. You can see grey aluminum under the gold on the set I have showing wear. Other than the material, they appear to be exactly the same as the modern plastic version we're all familiar with.

Here is an interesting Japanese shooting site with a page on the history of speedloaders: History of Speedloader

Not that any of this helps determine when S&W made the change to speedloader cutout target stocks, but we learn it is indeed possible HKS was producing a version of the modern speedloader as far back as the early 1970s.

Makes me smile......
I hit the streets the Summer of 1980, after graduating my PD's Academy.
Evidently, I was the first to ever wear or use speedloaders. Issue weapon at the time was the Colt Trooper Mk III .357. Most guys used the issued 6 round loop 'slide' on the belt. A few used twin 'dump pouches'.
No one I saw had speedloaders. I had either a Hume or Mixon dual speedloader pouch and a pair of HKS loaders in them.
Will always recall one of the guys on another shift approaching me when I was fueling my patrol car and him inquiring (and he was rather 'country'): 'What's that on yer belt? - Is them binoculars?'

I showed him the HKS speedloaders. He looked at them in wonderment. Within a year, almost 75% of our department was carrying them.

BTW - IIRC, the only way the Colts worked well with the loaders were when they had Pachmyars on them, as mine did....
We soon switched to S&W M66's, which had the cutout.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

I definitely carried speedloaders in the '70s when I was in LE. I had (and still have, actually) them for a Python, a 28, a 29, and K-frame 38/357. I know, also during that time frame (probably in the very late 70s), Smith went to the cutout stocks specifically for speedloaders. The reason? A lot of us at that time were cutting out the footballs on the original grips to get sufficient clearance for the speedloaders to work well. I was guilty of that, too. Back then there was no "mystique" to the grips or even keeping the original grips with the original gun. I finally put on Pachs just because they were much more durable for exposed carry and resisted weather better than the wood. You were always knocking the wood on something, particularly when wrestling a mope on the ground or getting them wet when working outside and a thunderstorm, hailstorm, blizzard came up outta nowhere and your weather gear was in the squad car 200 yards away.

It appears that the switchover was in late 70's to early 80's with L frames first then K and N frame.
My question is when did S&W come out with their Combat grips for the SB N frame. (I have a set that has the football cutout, and most I've seen have the speedloder cutout.)

Since most things S&W don’t happen on hard and fast changeover dates, I tend to agree with saemetric’s summary conclusion . . .

I also agree with TDC's qualifier:

In addition to the smooth commemorative stocks like those referenced by TDC on the 125th Anniversary N-frame Model 25-3, there were several LE runs of K-frame Model 66-1 duty revolvers with the more conventional checked target stocks with the "dual-cutout". The pair pictured below shipped to the Missouri State Highway Patrol . . . the commemorative (front) in 1980 and the duty gun (rear) in October 1979 . . . and both displayed the 50th Anniversary shield of the Missouri patrol.







Russ

I have a 17-4 shipped June 79 and has these same speed loader relieved grips.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I purchased several new K and N frame guns during the 1970s. All of them came with the "football" relief target grips. It wasn't until the 1980s that I saw the speed loader cutouts on new K and N frame guns with target and combat grips.

Hi all,

I, like many other 'early vintage' LEO's from the 70's, had my 4" duty belt S&W's (19, 28, 29) that I carried arrive with the standard football cutouts. I used the HKS speedloaders, starting in about 1976, iirc. Most all my football stocks were Dremel cut/ground to better fit the HKS's and then dabbed over with Linspeed to cover the Dremel work. I do recall that my '81(?) vintage 586 4" came with the bigger SL cutout from the factory.

I eventually got hooked on using the Pachmayr Gripper series of rubber grips for all the revolvers. And, as I so deeply regret, I do not still own any of those fine weapons. I do have a two S&W's now, a 66-2 2.5" and a K-Comp 19 3".

What a nice trek down nostalgia lane this thread was!

Take care,


JJ

That movie also featured a Swedish K SMG that fired at least 200 rounds from one 30-round stick magazine:-)

Just kiddin. Interesting thread. I know speedloaders were around well before the 80s, but don't recall seeing any S&W targets with the cutout until then. Thats just my observation with zero evidence.