I have a question: The revolver model 15 S&W was the standard issue sidearm for the USA Air Force during the Vietnam War? I mean it was the regulation handgun of this force.
Or it was it a handgun that the pilots used for their own will?

And the same question for the model 56 S&W, was it the standard issue sidearm for the USA Air Force in any moment of the history of the force?

Forgive my Bad English
Hannibal

Hannibal:

Your English is fine.

Yes, the Model 15 was adopted by the USAF in the 1960s. Some pilots are known to have carried them but they are best known in the Air Police/Security Police role.

Yes, the Model 56 was also adopted by the USAF in 1962. As a two inch barrel gun it was used by pilots, air crew, missile crews and others having need for a short barreled revolver.

Both revolvers are scarce but the M56 is very difficult to find as most were destroyed by the Air Force. Do you have examples of the USAF M15 and M56?

Hope that information helps you.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I was an Air Policeman, from 1966 to 1970 and our standard side arm was the model 15 with 4" barrel. I fondly remembered this weapon since then and finally purchased one about two years ago. Not a USAF issue, but a model 15 nonetheless. Great revolver.

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Endeavor to persevere. <><

Even I have two models 15 S&W (one of 2” and one of 4”) unfortunately they were not USAF revolvers.
I made the question because a friend of mine told me the combat pilots don’t have the model 15 as the standard issue sidearm, that they used just as a personal firearm, He said it was not the regulation sidearm of the pilots only the military police.

As a combat aircrew from 1982, I carried the Model 15, both the 2 inch and 4 inch. I carried a 4 inch Model 15 when I deployed to Saudi Arabia for Operation Desert Shield in 1990. While deployed, we transitioned to the M9.
In the units where I served, personally owned firearms were not allowed to be carried, although I know of some guys that did carry their own weapons. By the time of Operation Allied Force (Kosovo), it was ordered (and enforced) that personally owned firearms would not be carried.

Hello Safearm:

Thanks for your post. Can you tell me if the 2 inch barreled M15 you mentioned carrying was US or USAF marked? If so, where? Was there a dash number or was it a M15 no dash? How were the 2" M15s carried, ie shoulder holster or what?

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

While I was flying, I carried the M15 in a survival vest holster. The holster was designed to carry either the 2 or 4 inch model. To be honest, I never checked anything on the gun except whether it was loaded and that the serial number was correct.

Thanks for sharing this information. It was very valuable for me.

Does anybody else want to share their experiences and information?


Hannibal

Hello
During my back-to-back tours in SE Asia (1970-1972) the 4" Model 15 I carried was issued by the USAF. It was standard for the AP/SP but was also issued to air crews and to troops (like Ammo) when pulling convoy duty.
Lots of us had personal weapons during that war also, but the official sidearm of the USAF was the S&W Model 15. I qualified for my Expert Marksmanship medal on mine.
Regards,
JP

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

When I served in SEA with the AF, the S&W MOD 15 4-inch was the standard sidearm issued to SP and Aircrew. Some of us had personal "survival" gear, as well. These were fine revolvers, and I purchased one (a non-USAF) 15/4inch after I returned to the states. I kept that gun for almost 40 years.
XAVMECH

First ...Welcome Home Brothers......Nam. 68 + 69.. on this our Vet's day...

When I was in the Boonies, I carried a S+W .38 snubby J frame as an 'in the belt' crowd scatterer for backup.
the gun was stamped Property of US Air FORCE. on the backstrap. I remember this clearly.(some of the other stuff is not so clear)
I bought it from a friend for $50, and sold it to another friend for $75 when I took the Freedom Bird out of that sewer.
A couple of weeks ago, I saw one used in a gun shop. $450 later, I have one in my belt again. No, it doesn't have the US etc. markings, but it's like an old friend back where it belongs. 2 inch groups at 35 feet with 4.0 Unique and a 158 RNFP. Anything in my bedroom that doesn't belong there will have a 'flashback' from me.
Went, didn't run, planted my feet, and proud of it! Ken

As an AP I pulled security at the command post at 8 TFW (F-4 Phantoms) in '66-'67; got to know a number of the pilots including Robin Olds and some others that gained prominence in later years. I paid particular attention to the sidearms carried as I was already a gun person in those days. The issue sidearm for aircrew and us was the Model 15 with 130 grain FMJ hardball ammo. HOWEVER a small percentage of the pilots did carry personally owned weapons. I did some finagling to get some .45 ACP tracer ammo for one who carried a 1911, and I do remember another that packed a BHP 9mm.

The usual holster was the USAF swivel hanger mounted holster on a web pistol belt. BUT there are always exceptions. I got away with carrying the M-15 in a cross draw spring holster which was more convenient where I worked, and I occasionally loaded the gun with my improved ammo--a 146 grain cast hollow point bullet and 12.5 grains of 2400. So even though the regs may specify what you will carry, sometimes there is a certain amount of deviation.

There were still some old Victory Models andf M2 carbines in circulation in those days, although the only ones I saw were stateside.

Never could figure out why S&W didn't make a USAF commemorative Model 15 with all the people who fondly remember them from their service time.

Here's to all the veterans tomorrow.

I was a Sentry Dog Handler with the AF at Danang AB, (366 TFW), from Nov 67 to Sept 68. Our standard issue weapon was the "M16 Submachine Gun" as it was offically called. Actually it was a XM177, the first of the shorty M16s. Collapsible stock and the barrel ended at the gas block/front sight with a huge flash suppressor screwed on the muzzle. The "M16 SMG" was issued to us the first day in country, kept with us in our hooch locker and turned in the day you left. The Model 15 was indeed the standard issue sidearm of the AF Security Police. We had the option of carrying the M15 along with a Trench Shotgun if your Dog was unable to work. The standard ammo load was 18 rounds of .38 (in a dump pouch), and 25 rounds of Brass Cased 00 buck( extra rounds were available), for the pump shotgun, mostly Model 12 Winchesters with the bayonet lug and heat shield. I usually opted for the M16 SMG. I also had a Browning HP that I had traded some 5 gallon cans of paint to a VNAF Officer for and a 1911 that a Marine friend from Khe Sahn gave me. The HP was almost useless due to the 9MM round not being US issue in those days. I had 50 rounds he gave me but resupply required more trading material. I used to carry the HP on off duty trips to China Beach and BX. The Model 15 was ultra reliable, reasonably accurate and I never felt under armed when I carried it. Stateside it was a standard duty carry for all AF K9 handlers. I have a couple of M15s sadly no AF issue models.

Thanks for sharing.
I don’t know much about hand loading, but isn’t it a .357 Magnum load?

Hannibal

It's more of a ".38-44" load, the predecessor to the original .357 Magnum, and a pretty stiff load, running about 1150 fps. N frame S&Ws (like the .38 Special Heavy Duty guns) would take it but normally I wouldn't try it in a K frame Model 15. I just didn't have any confidence in the military FMJ load. These were also the days before good commercial JHP or SWCHP +P loads were available...

Go to 13.5 grains of 2400 and you're definitely getting into .357 territory.

Thanks for the information. I have read about the .38 HV caliber. A .38 Special loaded hotter than any other .38 Special that must be used in .44 N frames or New Service frames only.

My dad did two tours in Vietnam with the Air Force and he told me that in addition to the Model 15 he saw several Victory Models carried by aircrew members both officer and enlisted. I also know of a picture showing one in what appears to be an issue Hunter holster being carried by either a loadmaster or crew chief.

Can you post that picture for the rest of us, please?

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I was USAF Vietnam era and our issue handgun was a 4 inch Model 15. It was the first handgun I ever shot and got me started in S&W revolvers right there.
One of our guards shot himself in the leg playing quick draw and they took away the M-15s and gave us M16A1s as we were co-located with US Army.

I have one Model 15 now a civilian snubbie and it's still a great gun.

I too never paid any attention to the markings on our guns. Quite frankly I barely knew they were Model 15s as I took note since my dream was a Model 19 which was my first revolver and second handgun, first being a Ruger Mark I.

I carried one from 1983 until the M9 actually made it to us around 89 or 90.

I loved the gun, but the ammo was not confidence inspiring. Its the weird one in the middle:



I've never heard a good reason for the pushed-in bullet.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

You mean this PGU12 ?

Supposedly 900 fps...not. The deepseated bullet was supposed to have better compression for higher velocity.As told to me.

It didn't. I carried a Model 15 in the Air Force Security Police from 1971, all the way until my retirement from the Reserves in 1997. We had a few left in the armory for "Informal Practice". It was still listed on my weapons card.

The usual practice was at each base, they would only put what weapons you had qualified with and were pertinent to your assignment. I held Small Arms Expert Instructor status since 1974.

My card was full with every small arm in the AF....

My last CO was an old SP like me and carried a 15...unless the IG came around.

Hated the Beretta and still do to this day.

Attached Images

PGU-12B38Specammo.jpg (32.2 KB, 238 views)

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Take your time..quickly.

the 12.5 gr. of 2400 is hot for a 38 my favorite load in my model 19 is a lyman 358156 hp about 155gr. with 12.2 gr. of 2400 in a mag case. it is a very hot 38 or a mild 357 it shoots very accurate with no hard recoil in the 2 in. model 19.

How would it be the veolicty of a load like that in a 4 inches barrel revolver? And how would it be in a 2 inches revolver?

My records show 12.5 grains of 2400 with a 150 grain cast SWC doing 1225 fps out of a 4" barrel. With a 146 grain Speer half jacket hollow point (more friction?) the same gun got 1070 fps.

Thanks for the answer

I was a fresh new airman (aircrew student) at Little Rock Air Force Patch, and they had us fire the 38 supposedly because they did not have 9X19 ammo for the "new" Beretta M9..... I LOVED the revolver, and am still searching for my "govt property" model 15... I do not remember seeing "Property of US Government" anywhere on the gun, but I do remember it was a S&W Mod15-2 with target trigger and hammer.... fine, fine revolver.

I later qualified with and carried the M9, and while I hated it, I did love the high capacity.... none of my M9's in 20 years ever had any character.... the single revolver however, reeked of class.... like a 1911, they JUST FELT BETTER....

I dont have anything to add to the thread other than to say this is an example of why this is such a great board, and an excellent resource, and why it will continue to be. Excellent first hand knowledge from owners and enthuisasts and guys that have been there .

Thanks to all that served for us too.

I have seen a US marked Model 15. At the time I was thinking that they were more available . I dont remember it being in great shape, but it would have been nice to have now. I was in my Colt years at the time.

Being a non combatant, I was never issued a weapon but we still had to qualify. It was the M15 that I qualified with. About a month ago, I found one in one of my LGSs and had to have it. I took it to the range and it shot like a dream. Even though I had little contact with sidearms, the 15 felt like an old friend.

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S&W Model 15-3

The model 15 you describe is the standard military configuration, with the target hammer and trigger. Most would have been stamped U.S.A.F. on the left frame under the cylinder, but some had only U.S. and others would have had unit or inventory marks as well. Very few of these have been found in the commercial market, but enjoy the search!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The M-15 was the issue revolver for the Air Force Office of Special Investigations (OSI) until the early 1970s when OSI adopted a 3" barrel M-36. OSI also had a few 2" M-15s, usually one or two at each Detachment. I never paid any attention to the model number on the
2"ers, just assumed they were M-15s. I prefered the 4" and never carried the 2". Most agents bought their own holsters, I think my old Bucheimer "Federal Man" is around here somewhere. Great guns!

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Keep Shootin' and check 6

My dad was an SP from 63-66. His first station was Mountain Home AFB, Idaho back when Mountain Home was a SAC installation (and he later ended up moving the family from Detroit to Idaho in 1969) and then Bien Hoa Air Force Base, South Vietnam. In Vietnam he was actually issued two handguns! The 2" Model 15 and a 1911A1.

The M15 he carried in a shoulder holster and the 1911A1 on his belt. His primary was a Winchester M97 Riot Gun. He says that by 65 the M16 had become standard but he does recall seeing a few M1/M2 carbines being used by a few over in South Vietnam. Near the end of his tour over there the M16 pretty much replaced everything else is how he remembers it. He exchanged his shotgun for an M16 and the two handguns were also turned in and he got a 4" M15.

It's always interesting to talk to the older veterans. To see how things were different. Not necessarily better or worse, but different. Of course I guess I'm not one of those "older" veterans since I left the Army in 2000. Things have really changed since I was in.

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I type. Therefore I am.

Though this decision is based on my experience as a shooter and not a retired SNCO, my two favorite guns are a 4 inch K-frame and a Beretta M-9. I first qualified with the 38 in 1985. They used the hot ammo. My personal gun was a Ruger Security Six at the time so I knew what hot loads felt like. When I first qualified with the M9 in 1988 I fell in love! I am just not a 1911 guy; I don't hate them, I just don't idolize them. If I was going to play in the sandbox and could sneak my own guns in, I would still take the Beretta but it would be backed up with my 19-3 snubby with speedloaders available.

Hi all thanks for your service. I'm looking to give my dad a gift for his birthday. He is a Vietnam B-52 pilot vet. I want to duplicate his sidearm. From research I see that aircrew used the model 15 2" barrel. There are lots of model 15s out there. My question: did aircrew use the same model every time or all of them? For example 1,2,3,4 models were all bought by the AF for the model 15

i was usaf from 81-86 and had to qualify with a revolver when i went overseas. i wasn't much of a pistol guy in those days but i seem to remember it was a colt. old and tired and not anything memorable. i qualified and never shot a handgun in the service again.

Sounds exactly like my experience except I used a Model 15 S&W.

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S&W Model 15-3

I assume you are referring to dash numbers here.
My experience would say that the Logistics Command did not try to keep them segregated by production sequence. They just all went into inventory and were sent where they were needed. As personnel strength changed in any given unit or as attrition took its toll on inventory (aircrews lost in combat, etc.) replacement revolvers were requisitioned and got mixed in with existing inventory.
On any given aircraft at any given time, there would be a mix of weapons carried by crewmembers. On the B-52, you could easily have had two or three different dash numbers of M-15 carried by crewmen, not to mention other weapons that may or may not have been AF issue.
As an aside, do you know when and where your dad was flying the B-52 in SEA? Until late in the war when lots of them were moved back to Anderson where they had first been stationed in 1965, the main locations were Kadena and U-Tapao. It would be interesting to know if I came in contact with your dad over there.
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I can't recall the source, but I've read that Gen. Curtis LeMay ordered that the Air Force adopt the .38 Special for its aircrews and security forces.
LeMay was a pistol shooter, and disliked the 1911A1 because it was hard to train recruits with. The .38 Special was easier to shoot accurately.
Also, there are allegations that LeMay wanted the highly refined Smith & Wesson Model 15 because it was far more accurate than the military 1911A1 .45, and each service competed in shooting matches against each other with their duty weapon.
The rules demanded that only the duty weapon could be used, and it could not be altered.
The Air Force could rightfully claim that the Model 15, with its adjustable sights, target trigger and hammer, and smooth action IS its duty weapon. This gave the Air Force a big advantage over the other services, who competed with the less-accurate .45 auto.
The Model 15 has long been noted for being an exceptionally accurate revolver. The one I carried in the late 1970s as a Security Policeman (Law Enforcement Specialist) would put 100 148 gr. wadcutters into one large, ragged hole at 25 yards that I could cover with my palm.
We carried the 130 gr. full metal jacket load, but never fired it. All qualification was done with Winchester factory 148 gr. wadcutters.
So how did the 130 gr. full metal jacket bullet get adopted?
In the early 1950s the Air Force adopted an all-aluminum .38 Special snubnose revolver for its pilots. At the time, the Air Force was manic about weight, and every bit of equipment was weighed down to the ounce. If it could be made lighter, it was done so.
According to a friend of mine, who was a USAF survival instructor at the time, the all-aluminum revolver also meant that captured aircrew members didn't provide a useable weapon to the enemy.
According to my friend, the .38 revolver with an aluminum cylinder and barrel was good for about 200 full metal jacket rounds before it was worn out and useless.
However, the standard full metal jacket load at that time employed a 158 gr. bullet. This was the load used in World War II with standard .38 Special revolvers.
In the aluminum revolver, this load was excessive at 17,000 pounds per square inch pressure. So, bullet weight was reduced to 130 grains, and pressure was reduced to 13,000 psi. This also reduced velocity to about 725 feet per second from a 4" barrel.
With the 130 gr. full metal jacket load, the all-aluminum (commonly known as the Aircrewman) revolver lasted longer. This was a major concern, because pilots needed to qualify with this revolver.
The light M41 ammunition wasn't as harsh on the all-aluminum revolver.
Unfortunately, the Air Force also adopted the M41 ammo for its larger, stronger K-frame Model 15 "Combat Masterpiece."
This resulted in an exceptionally fine sidearm being hampered by a very weak load: 130 gr. bullet at 725 fps.
In the 1970s, Speer sold in its "Lawman" line a load that pushed a 150 gr. full metal jacket bullet at about 950 fps from a 4" barrel. Some Security Police members purchased this ammo on their own, and carried it. This was strictly against regulation, and if you shot someone with it you'd be in real trouble, but it was figured that at least you'd be alive to face charges.
It was easy to spot who was doing it, as the Speer cases were nickel-plated. A quick glance at the cylinder in the SP's holster revealed who was carrying the nickel-plated Speer loads. Air Force loads had brass cases.
I knew a sergeant who shot at a fleeing vehicle with the weak, M41 ammunition. All bullets bounced off the trunk and rear window. None of the bullet reached the passenger compartment.
The all-aluminum Aircrewman didn't last long in the Air Force. It was replaced by the Model 15 or Model 10 .38 Special, with either a 2 or 4-inch barrel, and these were issued to aircrew members.
Later, probably beginning in the early 1960s, the Smith & Wesson Model 39 9mm auto pistol was issued to general officers and aircrew members. I believe the 9mm load was a 115 gr. bullet at around 1,200 fps.
We Security Police were obviously expendable, forced to carry revolvers that were slow to reload, with weak ammunition. There was a lot of grumbling about this blatant favoritism. After all, when did you EVER see a general NEED a sidearm?
Anyway, concerns over providing the enemy, via captured aircrew members, a useable pistol of .38 or 9mm caliber apparently vanished.
Probably for reasons of economy, and to avoid supply confusion, the 130 gr. full metal jacket at around 750 fps was deemed suitable for the Model 15 as well.
It became the military standard for all services. The last 158 gr. full metal jacket standard loads for the U.S. military were probably made in the early to mid 1950s.
I've heard rumors that 158 gr. +P loads were made in the late 1970s and early 1980s for trials, but never adopted.
However, in the late 1970s the Air Force DID adopt a load with a 130 gr. full metal jacket load seated deeper in the case, to increase velocity. This was the PGU 12/B High Velocity cartridge. It used the same 130 gr. FMJ bullet loaded to 20,000 psi, which increased velocity to about 950 fps in a 4" barrel.
The .38 Special was gradually replaced by the Beretta M9 9mm auto. However, not long ago I spoke to a retired USAF radar repairman who worked in South America a great deal. He said that as late as 1995 they were handed a Smith & Wesson Model 15, web belt, holster, and box of ammo before going to remote sites.
The Security Police, aircrews and others carried the M9, but the radar guys were handed the .38s. Apparently, there weren't enough 9mms to go around.
He said they felt as though their lives weren't worth as much as those who were given the 9mms.
I told him about seeing aircrewmen and generals walking around with new Smith & Wesson Model 39 9mm autos, while we Security Police were carrying Model 15s. I knew how he felt.
The Model 15 was an outstanding revolver, however, and still is. After years without one, I finally picked up one like-new, made in 1977. The same 4" barrel, but nickel-plated.
It is an extremely accurate revolver. My eyes are older, and I can't shoot the groups that I did as a Security Policeman, but I can still put all six rounds into the abdomen and thorax of a police silhouette at 50 yards.
I shoot 158 gr. lead semiwadcutters through it, over a healthy dose of Unique powder. The 130 gr. full metal jacket military loads -- still sold by Winchester and Remington -- are good for rabbits when you don't want to destroy meat intended for cooking.
I sure wouldn't carry the 130 gr. loads for self defense, though. For that, I carry my own reloads, or the 158 gr. soft lead hollowpoint bullet load dubbed the "FBI Load," as made by Remington.
My Model 15 is my "desert roaming" gun -- and every shot brings back a lot of fond memories.

The S&W Model 15 has always been one of my two favorite handguns (the other being the Colt 1911/1911A1/Mk IV Series 70). It was the first firearm I ever handled and was taught to shoot in the summer of 1967 at USAFA Basic Summer. I then went on to carry one for a short period of time as a Combat Controller. When I first got in the career field we were issued both the Model 15 and the Colt GAU-5. But shortly thereafter the powers that be decided that we only needed one firearm for our mission and we lost the Model 15s.

I don't know if I've told the story here or not but the only "Model 15" I have in the inventory was born a 6" Target Masterpiece in Jan 1949. In May 1950 it was returned to S&W to have the barrel cut down to 4" and a ramped front sight installed (all verified by Roy Jinks). I am assuming it was because the owner wanted the (then) newly introduced Combat Masterpiece but could not get a new one so he took the next best step.

I no longer collect S&Ws (or so I tell myself) but I still look at every gun show and gun shop for a mid-60's Model 15, either 2" or 4" to complete my non-existance collection.

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Frosty
S&WCA # 2816