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S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 3-Screw PINNED Barrel SWING-OUT Cylinder Hand Ejectors WITH Model Numbers


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  #101  
Old 09-07-2013, 03:42 PM
artemis artemis is offline
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I have a Model 15-3 and use standard .38 ammunition; I am fortunate enough to have a 686 (No Dash) for a .357 if needed.
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  #102  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:39 PM
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Without offense to anyone posting since, Post 96 should have been the last word on this subject.

Thank you, Alk8944.

The FBI adopted the Colt Police Positive in 1933 or thereabouts and specified its ammo as 158 grain Keith bullet at 1125 fps. It was not called +P. It was called 38/44. And the Police Positive is a very small frame, with lock-up at only one end.

That should also help everyone understand that this business of +P is overdone and people worry way too much about it.

Last edited by shawn mccarver; 09-07-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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  #103  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
That should also help everyone understand that this business of +P is overdone and people worry way too much about it.
That won't stop someone from asking the same question again within a few days, though.
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  #104  
Old 09-07-2013, 04:56 PM
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  #105  
Old 09-07-2013, 05:24 PM
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Do you suppose they're trying to get folks to trade in their old pre-10s for brand, spanking new, rubber gripped, six-guns (or 7 guns, or whatever)?
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  #106  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:16 PM
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Never shoot .38 +P in a K frame.
Never mind that the same gun was also chambered in .357 Mag, at MUCH higher pressures.
Shooting .38 +P in a K frame will cause a rift in the space-time continuum, generate a black hole, blow out the bottom of the sea, and let all the water run down the hole.

Seriously, if it's safe in a beer can Airweight J frame, it's seriously underkill in a steel K frame.

How many here remember those Winchester 125 grain -P, er, +P Silvertip .38s that run 700-750 fps?
Real heady stuff, there. (dripping with sarcasm)

Make mine Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP +Ps, please.


I think I'll really live on the edge, and shoot .357 magnum ammo in my 586 .357.


I propose that RGs are the reason for the castration of .38 Spl ammo.
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  #107  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:23 PM
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I really don't know why I bothered to look in on this thread again. This isn't beating a dead horse, it's dynamiting the damn thing.
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  #108  
Old 09-07-2013, 10:36 PM
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I really don't know why I bothered to look in on this thread again. This isn't beating a dead horse, it's dynamiting the damn thing.
Because it's so darned fun.
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  #109  
Old 09-09-2013, 09:44 PM
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Since I started this thread in 3/12, I have seen the same question SO many times.
In fact, twice last month.
One concerned a Model 15. Personally, I'll shoot +P all day long in my Model 15 without giving it a second thought.
Since I wrote the OP, I lucked into a "Pre-Model 10" circa 1957. I have no worries using the same ammo I shoot in my Model 15. The Model 10 doesn't seem to mind.
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  #110  
Old 09-10-2013, 09:37 AM
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As I remember posting several times earlier, Remington ammunition catalogs from the 1930s and later stated that .38/44 loads were safe for use in ANY .38 Special revolver in good condition, not just HDs and ODMs. The only warning concerned greater recoil in lighter guns. And the .38/44 was loaded to a substantially greater peak chamber pressure than any of today's +P factory loads.

One major reason for the SAAMI chamber pressure changes in the early 1970s was that the Piezoelectric pressure measurement gauges were coming into use at that time, and produced far more precise and accurate data than the old standard CUP method, which is extremely crude by comparison, and not comparable to piezo gauge measurements. I doubt that any ammunition manufacturer on earth uses the CUP method today. The rule of thumb is to add 15% to 25% to the CUP to get an approximation of the peak chamber pressure in pounds per square inch.

I know lots about the USAF Model 15s, and they did not blow up or wear out, even with the more powerful PGU-12/B loads. The real problem was quite limited, and involved some incidents of airmen doubling powder charges in the M41 cartridge, which did damage the M15s when fired. The M41 bullet was not crimped too tightly, and was fairly easily removed. The PGU-12/B cartridge had a much higher bullet pull specification, and its bullet was nearly impossible to remove, so powder charges could not be doubled. It was the only handgun cartridge made at Lake City AAP, specifically for the USAF during the Vietnam period.

Last edited by DWalt; 09-10-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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  #111  
Old 09-10-2013, 12:24 PM
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Because it's so darned fun.
AND it saves some other poor, innocent thread from the abuse of being horse-dead-beaten. This is a very humanitarian thread.
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  #112  
Old 09-10-2013, 12:28 PM
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will cause a rift in the space-time continuum, generate a black hole, blow out the bottom of the sea, and let all the water run down the hole.
And just when I thought it was safe to go back into the wormhole....
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  #113  
Old 09-11-2013, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sac-gunslinger View Post
AND it saves some other poor, innocent thread from the abuse of being horse-dead-beaten. This is a very humanitarian thread.
And it gave me the idea to see if I could find a Speer #8 manual which I did. Supposedly in like new condition from Amazon for half the price of a current Speer manual. It will be interesting to look at 70s loads compared to my 90s books compared to my current books.

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  #114  
Old 09-11-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ikor View Post
A sticky won't help...no one ever reads 'em.
Boy, ain't that the truth! Lee spent a lot of time on his sticky about how to identify your revolver. Nobody reads it. There are still endless questions from people wanting help identifying their CTG model.
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  #115  
Old 09-11-2013, 11:35 PM
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The +P will not start a chain reaction in the water converting it all to gas and letting all the ships on all the oceans drop down to the bottom.
It will not blow out the bottom of the sea and let all the water run down the hole.
It will not destroy gravity.
I am not a +P playboy..........................

Apologies to Admiral William H. P. Blandy
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  #116  
Old 09-12-2013, 09:38 AM
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Sadly, the OP in a recent thread who asked about +P in his Model 15 on another site concluded that he must never shoot it in his revolver lest he risk damage.
In another thread just today, a person asked if +P 38spl was safe to use in his...GP100.
It is never gonna stop.
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  #117  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:11 PM
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Here are my thoughts on +P

If you look at some old factory data compared to the new load data and new factory data, you can clearly see the .38 special load standards were higher than they are today. This data is straight out of books I own.









Standard:

1958 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps

1971 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps

2013 Federal American Eagle 158 LRN 770 fps

2013 Remington 158 gr LRN 755 fps

2013 Winchester 158 Gr LRN or LSWCHP 755 fps

Reload data:

2007 book 158 grain lead 708-844 fps start

2007 book158 grain lead 781 to 967 fps max

High Speed / Modern +P

1971 Federal 158 grain lead 1090 fps

2013 Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP 890 fps

2013 Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP 890 fps

Reload Data:

2007 Book 158 gr lead 781-938 start

2007 Book 158 grain lead 843-1037 fps max

In comparison in 1972 the FBI introduced their +P standard 158gr LSWCHP load @ around 1000 fps. ( According to others: The Law Enforcement Handgun Digest of 1972 has a velocity chart on p. 188, which shows 1014 fps for this load (W38SPD) it has since been rated in modern times @ 890 fps)

Most standard factory 158 grain lead offerings run around 740-790 fps while most standard available 38 special +P lead offerings run 900-950. With some manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore advertising +P at 1000-1250 fps.

Just some data, take it as you will....
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  #118  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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It is sometimes quite a fuzzy line where standard ends and +P begins. For instance, sometimes I use Aguila 158 gr. hollow points at the range. These are not +P labeled, but leave the barrel at 900 feet per second. I also use Speer Lawman Clean-Fire +P 158 gr. TMJ. These leave the barrel at 900 fps as well. Why one is labeled +P and one is not, I don't really know.
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  #119  
Old 09-12-2013, 04:11 PM
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Does this mean that I can shoot +P in my Model 520, because it is model-marked?
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  #120  
Old 09-12-2013, 04:51 PM
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The Buffalo Bore +P is a attention getter in a J frame.
Several of my shooting friends chronographed a 20 round box a couple of years ago. I gave one of them a call today and he pulled his notes.

The results were:

Model 638-1018 fps...not fun to shoot
Model 15-3-1120 fps... oh yeah
Model K-38 6"- 1181 fps..laser accurate

I still three full boxes of the Winchester FBI load 158gr LHP..
deadly accurate in the right hands and a good powerful punch.

My perferred self defense load by far.
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  #121  
Old 09-12-2013, 05:07 PM
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Have a 10 2 inch bought in 1971 have always shot +P thru it.
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  #122  
Old 09-12-2013, 06:31 PM
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My new-to-me 10-6 and 15-3 are going to be fed lots of +P.
If a K frame is strong enough for .357, it's overkill for .38+P.
Buffalo Bore is my preferred ammo.
Their .38+P Outdoorsman load may just have the 15-3 replacing my GP100 .357 as my deer/hog hunting HG.
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  #123  
Old 09-12-2013, 08:09 PM
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"Their .38+P Outdoorsman load may just have the 15-3 replacing my GP100 .357 as my deer/hog hunting HG."


Or, you can use the BB 180 gr Mag version in your GP100.
Those deer/hogs will likely just surrender!

Best,
Rick
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  #124  
Old 12-01-2020, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightshooter2 View Post
And it gave me the idea to see if I could find a Speer #8 manual which I did. Supposedly in like new condition from Amazon for half the price of a current Speer manual. It will be interesting to look at 70s loads compared to my 90s books compared to my current books.

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  #125  
Old 12-02-2020, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
I don't know who the person talked to at Smith & Wesson but he or she should read their manual before making a statement like that.

Here is what S&W says about +P ammo in their 38 special according to there online manual.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures
associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect
the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some
revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS. This ammunition
should not be used in Smith & Wesson medium (K frame) revolvers
manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers
can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the
yoke cut of the frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the
cylinder is in the open position).

So, any revolver model 10 made after 1958 is safe to shoot +P ammo.

Now I am going to let you know the real story. S&W has been heat treating cylinders at least since 1930. Also, todays plus P ammo is what standard pressure was back before 1972. I am going to give you a link from a well known member on this forum. He has done a lot of research and is knowlegeable on this subject.
Shooting with Hobie
I was thinking that I had read that Smith & Wesson started heat treating cylinders right after WWI. I don't do hot loads in my little 32 Hand Ejectors anyway, but I treat the one I have made prior to WWI even more carefully... just factory type loads from the 1930's per Hatcher's Textbook.
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  #126  
Old 12-02-2020, 02:13 PM
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The USAF Model 15s that I saw, shot, and was issued were all in excellent condition.
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  #127  
Old 12-02-2020, 03:09 PM
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"You'll shoot your eye out kid"
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Old 12-02-2020, 06:39 PM
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Can you use +P ammo in a Hi Power. Asking for a cat.
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Old 12-02-2020, 07:45 PM
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What about a .45/70 Garrett 540gr hardcast out of my .410 Rossi single shot?
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Old 12-02-2020, 08:21 PM
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Going back to the original question, "Is it okay to shoot +P .38 Spl. in a heavy barrel M10", why would it matter whether it was the heavy barrel or the "pencil" barrel? The frame and cylinder are the same, and it's usually the cylinder that ruptures from a high-pressure load.
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Old 12-02-2020, 08:37 PM
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Default THEN AND NOW--------------

This from a March 1, 1934 letter from D. B. Wesson, then Vice President of S&W, to a customer who has ordered a pair of Outdoorsman----one .22 and one 38/44----for the hot rod .38 Special cartridge immediately preceding the 357 Magnum, and the +P from a time when there wasn't one (and the revolver which then and now was and can be re-chambered and safely used for .357 Magnum ammunition). In so many words, he says the steel as it comes from their suppliers is safe for use in any caliber weapon they make----with no strengthening whatsoever.

His exact words (in response to the customer's inquiry as to whether or not the cylinder of his .22 Outdoorsman will be heat treated): "The steel that is used in the cylinder of the K-22 is identical in formula with that used in the larger calibers, but it is not heat-treated after machining as the great thickness of the cylinder walls do not demand any further strengthening. As a matter of fact, even in out larger calibers the steel as it comes from the mill shows a tensile strength in the neighborhood of 80,000 lbs., which does not make the additional strength gained by treating a necessity, but we do very much prefer the greatly increased factor of safety that is obtained with the 130,000 lbs. elastic limit that the treating gives."

Bottom Line: It would seem +P is more about more money for the folks that make it than anything else.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 12-02-2020, 08:57 PM
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I remember this zombie from its first life. Once familiar names since deceased or banned. The skeleton of the horse still being beaten. Time for popcorn!
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Old 12-02-2020, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ralph7 View Post
That won't stop someone from asking the same question again within a few days, though.
...or a few years
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  #134  
Old 12-05-2020, 09:42 PM
Jeff Napoleoni Jeff Napoleoni is offline
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Whew! I guess I'm lucky to be alive. Over the summer I loaded some 38 sp +P 158g Hornaday JHP with 3g IMR Red. I went to the range and shot them through my 19-3, 4" and shot the rest of it through a Tarus 605. Now should I tell you all about the .357 loads?
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  #135  
Old 10-10-2021, 12:26 PM
Jaymo Jaymo is offline
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Still alive.
Not banned, yet.
Just don't get much time to come around. Perhaps I'll get back to perusing the forum regularly again.
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  #136  
Old 10-10-2021, 01:41 PM
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Rifleman200-10X Rifleman200-10X is offline
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If you're afraid to shoot +P ammo in any Model 10, of any vintage, I have a simple solution. Just send me all the offending ammo, and the revolver. I'll cheerfully empty all the ammo, and return the empties sized, tumbled, and ready to load, and the revolver cleaned, lubed, and ready to shoot. I'll even pay the return shipping cost.
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  #137  
Old 10-10-2021, 02:01 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is online now
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Does it surprise anyone that this +P thread, like so many other regular threads that surface monthly for years, contains basically no new information and opinions are often the same by many of the same respondents?
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  #138  
Old 10-10-2021, 04:34 PM
Hoosierville IRN Hoosierville IRN is offline
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Originally Posted by gunblade View Post
I was a weapons instructor in the USAF for 20 years...1983-2003. Some of our M15s were well used, but they were not "filthy" range guns...our training guns were cleaned after every firing. Weapons qualification training in the USAF includes field stripping & cleaning, and they were ALWAYS cleaned by the students after firing and inspected by the instructor before going back into the armory, at least that was the case at every CATM shop I ever worked at. I also never saw any M15s worn out by shooting PGU ball ammo and I never saw a cracked forcing cone on any M15 I ever handled in the USAF. Doesn't mean it never happened, I just don't believe there was a widespread problem with the ammo causing accelerated wear in the guns. JMHO.
Spent 28 years in the USAF; the first 12 and the last seven in positions that required an annual handgun qualification. Gunblade is absolutely correct. Every S&W revolver (M15) I saw/used/carried was in really good shape and cleaned thoroughly after every session. I can't attest to the way the Air Police/Security Police/Security Forces (their names kept changing) kept their weapons, but those reserved for aircrew duty, and those on the CATM range, were in really good shape.
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  #139  
Old 10-10-2021, 05:21 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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The legend the AF put out in the 1980s when they started the move to 9mm was that 40% of the revolvers sent in for servicing were rejected as irreparable.
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  #140  
Old 10-10-2021, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhyde View Post
One day, I might gather up the courage to touch off a .38 Special +P. I think if I put on some really think welding gloves, I might be able to touch off one round in my Dan Wesson .357 SuperMag. If I ever work up the courage to try, and I actually survive...I'll post up a report!
Careful. You might get PTSD like that NYT reporter got from firing an AR.....
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  #141  
Old 10-10-2021, 07:05 PM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is online now
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Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
Does it surprise anyone that this +P thread, like so many other regular threads that surface monthly for years, contains basically no new information and opinions are often the same by many of the same respondents?
No, not AFAIK.
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  #142  
Old 10-10-2021, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Doc View Post
Here you go...


Shooting with Hobie
Saxon could be "difficult" but he was certainly correct about that. I have fired 38+P in most every 38 I own and never noticed anything in the way of a problem or even an increase in recoil.

Much to do about nothing IMHO. A real early pre 1930 38 special deserves a break, the aluminum cylinder guns which you should not shoot with even standard loads and the early alloy J frames all need some caution.
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  #143  
Old 10-10-2021, 07:45 PM
Bill Lear Bill Lear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
I don't know who the person talked to at Smith & Wesson but he or she should read their manual before making a statement like that.

Here is what S&W says about +P ammo in their 38 special according to there online manual.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures
associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect
the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some
revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS. This ammunition
should not be used in Smith & Wesson medium (K frame) revolvers
manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers
can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the
yoke cut of the frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the
cylinder is in the open position).

So, any revolver model 10 made after 1958 is safe to shoot +P ammo.

Now I am going to let you know the real story. S&W has been heat treating cylinders at least since 1930. Also, todays plus P ammo is what standard pressure was back before 1972. I am going to give you a link from a well known member on this forum. He has done a lot of research and is knowlegeable on this subject.
Shooting with Hobie
Despite all the SAAMI numbers thrown around, most modern, non-magnum ammo, not made by specialty houses, is loaded well BELOW the so-called maximum pressure! This is a consequence of a litigious society looking to cash in for anything and everything.
The entire debate over so-called +P ammo is ridiculous and over-blown. +P is 2,000 psi over standard...like whooptido! Standard ammo can show pressure variation beyond that! I've never though twice about bumping .38 Special reloads in ANY model or frame size and I certainly don't have a trail of blown revolvers behind me!
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  #144  
Old 10-11-2021, 09:31 AM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddog28 View Post
I don't know who the person talked to at Smith & Wesson but he or she should read their manual before making a statement like that.

Here is what S&W says about +P ammo in their 38 special according to there online manual.
“Plus-P” (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures
associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect
the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some
revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS. This ammunition
should not be used in Smith & Wesson medium (K frame) revolvers
manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers
can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the
yoke cut of the frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the
cylinder is in the open position).

So, any revolver model 10 made after 1958 is safe to shoot +P ammo.

Now I am going to let you know the real story. S&W has been heat treating cylinders at least since 1930. Also, todays plus P ammo is what standard pressure was back before 1972. I am going to give you a link from a well known member on this forum. He has done a lot of research and is knowlegeable on this subject.
Shooting with Hobie
Wonder if people are talking about the same thing or not.
( Apples to Apples )
Maybe some are referring to heat treatment of frames, and others are referring to the heat treatment of cylinders?
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