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+P 38 Special Nonsense Regarding Model 10
- Thread starter amd6547
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Without offense to anyone posting since, Post 96 should have been the last word on this subject.
Thank you, Alk8944.
The FBI adopted the Colt Police Positive in 1933 or thereabouts and specified its ammo as 158 grain Keith bullet at 1125 fps. It was not called +P. It was called 38/44. And the Police Positive is a very small frame, with lock-up at only one end.
That should also help everyone understand that this business of +P is overdone and people worry way too much about it.
Thank you, Alk8944.
The FBI adopted the Colt Police Positive in 1933 or thereabouts and specified its ammo as 158 grain Keith bullet at 1125 fps. It was not called +P. It was called 38/44. And the Police Positive is a very small frame, with lock-up at only one end.
That should also help everyone understand that this business of +P is overdone and people worry way too much about it.
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That won't stop someone from asking the same question again within a few days, though.
bmcgilvray
SWCA Member
Do you suppose they're trying to get folks to trade in their old pre-10s for brand, spanking new, rubber gripped, six-guns (or 7 guns, or whatever)?
Never shoot .38 +P in a K frame.
Never mind that the same gun was also chambered in .357 Mag, at MUCH higher pressures.
Shooting .38 +P in a K frame will cause a rift in the space-time continuum, generate a black hole, blow out the bottom of the sea, and let all the water run down the hole.
Seriously, if it's safe in a beer can Airweight J frame, it's seriously underkill in a steel K frame.
How many here remember those Winchester 125 grain -P, er, +P Silvertip .38s that run 700-750 fps?
Real heady stuff, there. (dripping with sarcasm)
Make mine Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP +Ps, please.
I think I'll really live on the edge, and shoot .357 magnum ammo in my 586 .357.
I propose that RGs are the reason for the castration of .38 Spl ammo.
Never mind that the same gun was also chambered in .357 Mag, at MUCH higher pressures.
Shooting .38 +P in a K frame will cause a rift in the space-time continuum, generate a black hole, blow out the bottom of the sea, and let all the water run down the hole.
Seriously, if it's safe in a beer can Airweight J frame, it's seriously underkill in a steel K frame.
How many here remember those Winchester 125 grain -P, er, +P Silvertip .38s that run 700-750 fps?
Real heady stuff, there. (dripping with sarcasm)
Make mine Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP +Ps, please.
I think I'll really live on the edge, and shoot .357 magnum ammo in my 586 .357.
I propose that RGs are the reason for the castration of .38 Spl ammo.
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shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
I really don't know why I bothered to look in on this thread again. This isn't beating a dead horse, it's dynamiting the damn thing.
Since I started this thread in 3/12, I have seen the same question SO many times.
In fact, twice last month.
One concerned a Model 15. Personally, I'll shoot +P all day long in my Model 15 without giving it a second thought.
Since I wrote the OP, I lucked into a "Pre-Model 10" circa 1957. I have no worries using the same ammo I shoot in my Model 15. The Model 10 doesn't seem to mind.
In fact, twice last month.
One concerned a Model 15. Personally, I'll shoot +P all day long in my Model 15 without giving it a second thought.
Since I wrote the OP, I lucked into a "Pre-Model 10" circa 1957. I have no worries using the same ammo I shoot in my Model 15. The Model 10 doesn't seem to mind.
DWalt
Member
As I remember posting several times earlier, Remington ammunition catalogs from the 1930s and later stated that .38/44 loads were safe for use in ANY .38 Special revolver in good condition, not just HDs and ODMs. The only warning concerned greater recoil in lighter guns. And the .38/44 was loaded to a substantially greater peak chamber pressure than any of today's +P factory loads.
One major reason for the SAAMI chamber pressure changes in the early 1970s was that the Piezoelectric pressure measurement gauges were coming into use at that time, and produced far more precise and accurate data than the old standard CUP method, which is extremely crude by comparison, and not comparable to piezo gauge measurements. I doubt that any ammunition manufacturer on earth uses the CUP method today. The rule of thumb is to add 15% to 25% to the CUP to get an approximation of the peak chamber pressure in pounds per square inch.
I know lots about the USAF Model 15s, and they did not blow up or wear out, even with the more powerful PGU-12/B loads. The real problem was quite limited, and involved some incidents of airmen doubling powder charges in the M41 cartridge, which did damage the M15s when fired. The M41 bullet was not crimped too tightly, and was fairly easily removed. The PGU-12/B cartridge had a much higher bullet pull specification, and its bullet was nearly impossible to remove, so powder charges could not be doubled. It was the only handgun cartridge made at Lake City AAP, specifically for the USAF during the Vietnam period.
One major reason for the SAAMI chamber pressure changes in the early 1970s was that the Piezoelectric pressure measurement gauges were coming into use at that time, and produced far more precise and accurate data than the old standard CUP method, which is extremely crude by comparison, and not comparable to piezo gauge measurements. I doubt that any ammunition manufacturer on earth uses the CUP method today. The rule of thumb is to add 15% to 25% to the CUP to get an approximation of the peak chamber pressure in pounds per square inch.
I know lots about the USAF Model 15s, and they did not blow up or wear out, even with the more powerful PGU-12/B loads. The real problem was quite limited, and involved some incidents of airmen doubling powder charges in the M41 cartridge, which did damage the M15s when fired. The M41 bullet was not crimped too tightly, and was fairly easily removed. The PGU-12/B cartridge had a much higher bullet pull specification, and its bullet was nearly impossible to remove, so powder charges could not be doubled. It was the only handgun cartridge made at Lake City AAP, specifically for the USAF during the Vietnam period.
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sac-gunslinger
Member
Because it's so darned fun.
AND it saves some other poor, innocent thread from the abuse of being horse-dead-beaten. This is a very humanitarian thread.
sac-gunslinger
Member
And just when I thought it was safe to go back into the wormhole....
Straightshooter2
US Veteran
And it gave me the idea to see if I could find a Speer #8 manual which I did. Supposedly in like new condition from Amazon for half the price of a current Speer manual. It will be interesting to look at 70s loads compared to my 90s books compared to my current books.
CW
66Park
SWCA Member
Boy, ain't that the truth! Lee spent a lot of time on his sticky about how to identify your revolver. Nobody reads it. There are still endless questions from people wanting help identifying their CTG model.
The +P will not start a chain reaction in the water converting it all to gas and letting all the ships on all the oceans drop down to the bottom.
It will not blow out the bottom of the sea and let all the water run down the hole.
It will not destroy gravity.
I am not a +P playboy..........................
Apologies to Admiral William H. P. Blandy
It will not blow out the bottom of the sea and let all the water run down the hole.
It will not destroy gravity.
I am not a +P playboy..........................
Apologies to Admiral William H. P. Blandy
Here are my thoughts on +P
If you look at some old factory data compared to the new load data and new factory data, you can clearly see the .38 special load standards were higher than they are today. This data is straight out of books I own.
Standard:
1958 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps
1971 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps
2013 Federal American Eagle 158 LRN 770 fps
2013 Remington 158 gr LRN 755 fps
2013 Winchester 158 Gr LRN or LSWCHP 755 fps
Reload data:
2007 book 158 grain lead 708-844 fps start
2007 book158 grain lead 781 to 967 fps max
High Speed / Modern +P
1971 Federal 158 grain lead 1090 fps
2013 Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP 890 fps
2013 Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP 890 fps
Reload Data:
2007 Book 158 gr lead 781-938 start
2007 Book 158 grain lead 843-1037 fps max
In comparison in 1972 the FBI introduced their +P standard 158gr LSWCHP load @ around 1000 fps. ( According to others: The Law Enforcement Handgun Digest of 1972 has a velocity chart on p. 188, which shows 1014 fps for this load (W38SPD) it has since been rated in modern times @ 890 fps)
Most standard factory 158 grain lead offerings run around 740-790 fps while most standard available 38 special +P lead offerings run 900-950. With some manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore advertising +P at 1000-1250 fps.
Just some data, take it as you will....
If you look at some old factory data compared to the new load data and new factory data, you can clearly see the .38 special load standards were higher than they are today. This data is straight out of books I own.
Standard:
1958 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps
1971 Federal 158 grain lead 855 fps
2013 Federal American Eagle 158 LRN 770 fps
2013 Remington 158 gr LRN 755 fps
2013 Winchester 158 Gr LRN or LSWCHP 755 fps
Reload data:
2007 book 158 grain lead 708-844 fps start
2007 book158 grain lead 781 to 967 fps max
High Speed / Modern +P
1971 Federal 158 grain lead 1090 fps
2013 Winchester 158 grain LSWCHP 890 fps
2013 Remington 158 gr +P LSWCHP 890 fps
Reload Data:
2007 Book 158 gr lead 781-938 start
2007 Book 158 grain lead 843-1037 fps max
In comparison in 1972 the FBI introduced their +P standard 158gr LSWCHP load @ around 1000 fps. ( According to others: The Law Enforcement Handgun Digest of 1972 has a velocity chart on p. 188, which shows 1014 fps for this load (W38SPD) it has since been rated in modern times @ 890 fps)
Most standard factory 158 grain lead offerings run around 740-790 fps while most standard available 38 special +P lead offerings run 900-950. With some manufacturers such as Buffalo Bore advertising +P at 1000-1250 fps.
Just some data, take it as you will....
66Park
SWCA Member
It is sometimes quite a fuzzy line where standard ends and +P begins. For instance, sometimes I use Aguila 158 gr. hollow points at the range. These are not +P labeled, but leave the barrel at 900 feet per second. I also use Speer Lawman Clean-Fire +P 158 gr. TMJ. These leave the barrel at 900 fps as well. Why one is labeled +P and one is not, I don't really know.
Does this mean that I can shoot +P in my Model 520, because it is model-marked?
The Buffalo Bore +P is a attention getter in a J frame.
Several of my shooting friends chronographed a 20 round box a couple of years ago. I gave one of them a call today and he pulled his notes.
The results were:
Model 638-1018 fps...
not fun to shoot
Model 15-3-1120 fps...
oh yeah
Model K-38 6"- 1181 fps..
laser accurate
I still three full boxes of the Winchester FBI load 158gr LHP..
deadly accurate in the right hands and a good powerful punch.
My perferred self defense load by far.
Several of my shooting friends chronographed a 20 round box a couple of years ago. I gave one of them a call today and he pulled his notes.
The results were:
Model 638-1018 fps...
not fun to shootModel 15-3-1120 fps...
oh yeahModel K-38 6"- 1181 fps..
laser accurateI still three full boxes of the Winchester FBI load 158gr LHP..
deadly accurate in the right hands and a good powerful punch.
My perferred self defense load by far.
