Hi:
I was just advised that my excellent condition 1968 era S&W Model 36 is unsafe to fire Plus P ammo in?
This "Expert" also said this era S&W quality manufacture was below normal plus the barrel cylinder gap was unsafe?
He offered to trade a Russian 9mm for my "Unsafe" revolver.
Should I???

What is his area of expertise?
Swindling nice guns out of nice guys for Russian Junk?

Former NYPD and DEA and present Gunsmith/Gun Shop Owner.

Sounds like he is trying to swindle you. That year model 36 should be plenty safe to fire +P ammo in if its in decent shape.

Jimmy-

First, how's your eye surgery doing?

Next, the concensus seems to be that the Model 36 that recent is safe with Plus P, but will loosen up sooner if you shoot it a lot. Only quite recent J-frame guns are really warranted to shoot Plus P ammo. In the Model 60, about which I asked the company, suffixes from -4 onward are especially heat treated and have internal modificarions to the yoke screw, etc. to make them last longer if fired a lot with higher pressure loads.

But for occasional use and for defensive carry, I'd say you're good to go. THIS APPLIES ONLY TO STEEL FRAME GUNS.

It is true that S&W quality control has vacillated and the Vietnam years produced a lot of guns out-of-time, etc. Bangor-Punta owned S&W then, and their QC was perhaps the worst until maybe now. But many of the guns were just fine, although re-timing was often needed.

Unless the bbl.-cylinder gap really does look too wide, the gun is probably fine. The Russian gun is certainly worth far less.

Tnis man is trying to cheat you, and he's probably lying.

Wait, I am still trying to figure out "vacilated"?

A past participle

Vacillated

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Still Running Against the Wind

Jimmy, Obviously you are unaware on the dangerous position you've put yourself in. (dangling participle).

Just send the 36 to me and I swear I'll never let it see a box of bologna. Balony!

I recently read on another forum that .38+Ps will cause stretching of K-frames.

I have a Pre Model 36 and my gunsmith told me to fire all the 158 grain ammo I wanted in it but to stay away from the 125 grain +P's as they could damage the revolver. He said I could shoot just enough +p's in it to determine the POA and then carry them but he also said not to shoot a lot of them.

I think Jimmy might just be funnin' us a bit..

Hi:
The eye surgery went ok, but still have a lot of "Floaters" in my vision.
The "Gentleman" telephoned me in reguard to my classified ad.
1. My revolver only cost $68.00 new
2. How much did I have into my revolver?
3. Then the sales pitch----------
4. After all the negatives about my revolver, he stated that he wanted it for his wife??
5. Also stated that he builts custom M1911s using the chinese Norico frames. charges $2000.00 up for his "Customs".

Why dosen't he build a "custom" 1911 for his wife? I'm not buying the info he's trying to sell!

I bet if I listened a little longer I could have traded my Model 36 for in a bridge in Brooklyn.

Looks like you have this guy's number, Jimmy.

As far as the +P issue goes, the Model 36 is tougher than it gets credit for. The bolt locking notches on that little five shot cylinder are between the chambers, not directly over them as on the larger frame gun. There is also very little of the forcing cone end of the barrel extending into the frame opening.

I used to qualify quarterly with my Model 36 dash nothing with the dreaded +P+ Hydra-Shoks, and it is as tight as ever.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Please post my contact information on the other forum, and let the readers know they can send ALL their stretched 19's to me....

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Even older, even crankier....

You DEFINATELY can't shoot Plus P's in THAT!

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War Eagle! '10 BCS & '13 SEC

Jimmy, this guy knows what that 36 is worth in TN.

I see them with the worst wear you could imagine selling at shows for 350 and nice examples for 425 and up.

He just wants to steal that gun is all...

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Take your time..quickly.

Good Morning:
I never have and never will use Plus-P ammo in my weapons.
I from the "Old School" that if you want/need more power-go to a larger caliber.

I have a pair of old Model 36's that I bought back in 1983. One was NIB and the other a Police Trade in made in 1960. Both are still functional and reliable. No way am I going to put +P ammunition through them.

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Semper Paratus

I have one (Model 36) from the early 60s and another from the early 70s. I imagine I have shot 500-600 rounds of +p through each of them over the years, including some of the early Super Vel stuff.

I bet mine are still as reliable and functional as yours are.

They are both loaded with Buffalo Bore's Heavy .38 special +p 158 grain gas checked hollow points, as is the early 70s Model 60 that's in my pocket right now.

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Georgia On My Mind

my 36 is a 1970 mfg. i have put a couple of +p's through it just 'cuse... it didn't blow up or anything else.did i risk damage to my favorite j frame, maybe. i'll put all the +p stuff through my 360 pd airlight, as long as it's not "lighter than 120 gr. bullet".

I'm always amazed that people think they can't shoot .38+P's out of an ALL STEEL revolver.

Model 36's are not lightweight alloy guns (ala Mod. 37), shooting +P's will not hurt your steel 36.

[QUOTE]Former NYPD and DEA and present Gunsmith/Gun Shop Owner.[/QUOTE

Mr. Jimmy, now you know as well as I do that a retired cop/federal officer would never tell a lie or try and take advantage of someone So what you need to do with that unsafe old revolver is cut the barrel off and remove the trigger so it can never be used in any unsafe fashion again. Now if you don't have the ability to do the Aforementioned just pack it off to me and I will, for a Nominal fee take care of that old unsafe revolver.

My 1976ish (forgot which dash) 36 won't release the cylinder after a +P. It only has a couple hundred rounds thru it.

I don't know what part of DEA he was with, but the guys in Quantico said it was OK to shoot +P+ in M-36/60's.

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6/23/2022

I don't like +P in J frames. I have a 642 and never shoot +P. I do shoot +P in my model 10-5 snub nose. I use a low recoil 110-125gr for carry in the 642. I'm an old school old fart. I love S&W revolvers.

He's not the former DEA guy that stated, while standing in a Middle School auditorium, "I'm the only one here professional enough to handle this here .40", was he?

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

Well, there you go, Jimmy. You get what you pay for.

The feller's just trying to help you out.

All concerns over the use of +P ammo is based on the notion that it is some sort of hot load. It is not. Factory +P is loaded well below maximum allowable pressure. There is no standard on +P+ so individual manufacturers can load it to any pressure they choose. But +P is below max and should not cause any problems at all in a well made gun in good condition.

Do what you want with your gun, but in my opinion mainstream factory +P is a mild target load. It's a 125 at 925 FPS (I've tested some that ran as slow as 890) from a 4" barrel. Hot? Hardly.

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No life story has happy end.

If anybody runs down what you have and calls it 'unsafe', but offers to buy or trade it, you are getting took.

When he goes to sell the same gun it will be an example of the best year that S&W has produced guns ever.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

IIRC Elmer wrote about 500 38/44s in a new "Airweight Chief Special" with no reported issues. I fired a cylinderfull of factory 38/44 in a Mod. 60 in 1978. Have no wish to repeat the exercise, but the revolver is still mine. The J frame is tougher than generally thought.

Regards,

Tam 3

If you are OLD SCHOOL you should look up what a standard 158 grain load was in the 40's/50's/60's and then compare it to 158+P load of today.

Hardly a scientific study, but Elmer Keith put several thousand rounds of .38 Heavy Duty loads through one of the early .38 Special Chiefs with no detectable adverse effect. Those loads were far closer to .357 Mag loads of today than the current +P stuff. I wouldn't fret +P at all.

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Pisgah

Depending on the brand of ammo, +P cartridges may give you a little better stopping power but the difference isn't much. I use standard pressure 38 specials in my model 36. I am sure the bad guy won't know the difference. I use Hornady 38 special 110 gr Critical Defense which delivers the same muzzle energy as Remington 38 special 125gr +P. One is rated as standard pressure the other +P but the ballistics are basically the same.

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Have Gun Will Carry

Personally, I stay away from +P ammo in the older J frames. Yes, they can handle it in limited doses, but since there are a lot of excellent standard defense loads in .38 Spl., I don't see any compelling reason to add any additional stress to my Js.

As Will Carry points out above many standard loads are the same as +p loads. It depends on the manufacturer. There are no + p loads that will hurt any model since numbered models came out in 1958. If fact many loads are down graded since the 60's. No + p load doing 850 to 950 feet per second is going to hurt any S&W revolver.

For many years S&W stated that +P was safe in steel framed Model Marked (as in Model 36 in the yoke cut) revolvers. It was understood that heavy loads would cause wear to be accellerated somewhat. I qualified with +P loads out of my 36-1.
Here it is loaded with original SuperVels


The brass cases are 10 guage & 8 guage for size comparison.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

So in 1943 158 was 850 fps. Today most makers say that's a +P load.


During World War II, some U.S. aircrew (primarily Navy and Marine Corps) were issued .38 Special S&W Victory revolvers as sidearms in the event of a forced landing. In May 1943, a new .38 Special cartridge with a 158 grains (10.2 g), full-steel-jacketed, copper flash-coated bullet meeting the requirements of the rules of land warfare was developed at Springfield Armory and adopted for the Smith & Wesson revolvers.[18] The new military .38 Special loading propelled its 158 grains (10.2 g) bullet at a standard 850 ft/s (260 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[18] During the war, many U.S. naval and marine aircrew were also issued red-tipped .38 Special tracer rounds using either a 120 or 158 gr (7.8 or 10.2 g) bullet for emergency signaling purposes.[18]


"In 1956, the U.S. Air Force adopted the Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M41, a military variant of the .38 Special cartridge designed to conform to the rules of land warfare. The original .38 M41 ball cartridge used a 130-grain full-metal-jacketed bullet, and was loaded to an average pressure of only 13,000 pounds per square inch (90 MPa), giving a muzzle velocity of approximately 725 ft/s (221 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) barrel.[19][20] This ammunition was intended to prolong the life of S&W M12 and Colt Aircrewman revolvers equipped with aluminum cylinders and frames, which were prone to stress fractures when fired with standard .38 ammunition. By 1961, a slightly revised M41 .38 cartridge specification known as the Cartridge, Caliber .38 Ball, Special, M41 had been adopted for U.S. armed forces using .38 Special caliber handguns.[20] The new M41 Special cartridge used a 130-grain FMJ bullet loaded to a maximum allowable pressure of 16,000 psi (110,000 kPa) for a velocity of approximately 950 ft/s (290 m/s) in a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 750 ft/s (230 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[21][22] The M41 ball cartridge was first used in .38 revolvers carried by USAF aircrew and Strategic Air Command security police, and by 1961 was in use by the U.S. Army for security police, dog handlers, and other personnel equipped with .38 Special caliber revolvers.[22] A variant of the standard M41 cartridge with a semi-pointed, unjacketed lead bullet was later adopted for CONUS (Continental United States) police and security personnel.[20]

A request for more powerful .38 Special ammunition for use by Air Police and security personnel resulted in the Caliber .38 Special, Ball, PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge.[21] Issued only by the U.S. Air Force, the PGU-12/B had a greatly increased maximum allowable pressure rating of 20,000 psi, sufficient to propel a 130-grain FMJ bullet at 1,125 ft/s (343 m/s) from a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 950–980 ft/s from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[21] The PGU-12/B High Velocity cartridge differs from M41 Special ammunition in two important respects—the PGU-12/B is a much higher-pressure cartridge, with a bullet deeply set and crimped into the cartridge case.

I am presently looking at M36 and M37 for CC. I am not a fan of the tiny magnas that typically come on these and I am looking for alternatives. Yours are beautiful and look very functional. Would you mind sharing the manufacturer. Thank You

A comparison between the Super Vels and the current +P counterpart would be very interesting.