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Old 03-22-2016, 06:56 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Default Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?

I have a very nice 12-2 flat-latch snub that carries quite well in cargo shorts or some Wranglers. I really don't want the gun to suffer the classic under the barrel frame crack. I understand that not all loads, even with equivalent fpe, impart the same stress on the platform due to velocity, projectile hardness, etc.

Which of these non+P loads are "harder" on the firearm, and which are "easier"?

Ballistics from a 4"V barrel:

158 gr XTP at 800 fps / 225 fpe from Hornady

158 gr LRN/LSWC at 755 fps / 200 fpe from Win, AE Fed and Rem

150 gr LRN at 845 fps / 238 fpe from Winchester

130 gr FMJ at 890 fps / 229 fpe from AE Federal [shoots REALLY good in my snub!]

130 gr FMJ at 800 fps / 180 fpe from Win and Rem

110 gr JHP at 950 fps / 220 fpe from Win and Rem

Thanks for your input!

Hunter
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:43 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Personal opinion. First, I would never, ever, buy a Model 12 with the intent to shoot it. I have seen too many with the cracked frame (several theories on the cause, which I won't debate). But if I did have one and was tempted to shoot it, I would use nothing but target wadcutters. Many won't agree with me, but I don't particularly care if they do or not.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:21 AM
alwslate alwslate is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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You're likely to get replies that are mostly personal opinion but in
general there is lots of evidence that indicates jacketed bullet ammo
does stress the forcing cone area of S&W revolvers more than lead
bullet ammo does. I'm sure someone will disagree with this but I
would advise you to shoot the gun sparingly with your choice of lead
bullet ammo.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:00 AM
Cal44 Cal44 is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Unless the gun is a pristine collector piece, I think you should shoot it.

Otherwise it's just a paper weight. Guns are made to be shot.

But, no need to try to turn it into a range gun and shoot thousands of rounds a year.

Do just enough practice to stay proficient with it -- and take the suggestion above to use mild factory wadcutters for practice.

Then pick whatever you consider the best defense load from your list and carry with that.

If it breaks, it breaks. It's a tool. Tools don't last forever. If it breaks, replace it.

Just my opinion. I have a few aluminum J frames but no M12 -- but I wish I did.

Dave
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Personal opinion. First, I would never, ever, buy a Model 12 with the intent to shoot it. I have seen too many with the cracked frame (several theories on the cause, which I won't debate). But if I did have one and was tempted to shoot it, I would use nothing but target wadcutters. Many won't agree with me, but I don't particularly care if they do or not.
My thoughts as well. The early alloy frames probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but time proved otherwise.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:08 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Personal opinion. First, I would never, ever, buy a Model 12 with the intent to shoot it. I have seen too many with the cracked frame (several theories on the cause, which I won't debate). But if I did have one and was tempted to shoot it, I would use nothing but target wadcutters. Many won't agree with me, but I don't particularly care if they do or not.
I have to agree with this as mine cracked using 20-30 year old 158 grain lead RN ammo. Being the ammo was old it probably didn't have the spunk it did when new. Mine was a Model 37 but I guess it could happen to any model.

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Old 03-23-2016, 10:11 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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I suspect (with no data except lots of individual reports) that the frame cracking in alloy frame revolvers is luck of the draw. Plenty of guns that have had numerous rounds fired with no damage; others show up at retail cracked (an over-torqued barrel is the suspect here), and some do it unpredictably.

Assuming your model 12 may someday land in the third category above, it seems reasonable to restrict it to lead bullet loads at moderate velocities. A SWC or WC seems to be a good choice, as would keeping the forcing cone area very clean. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:16 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
Personal opinion. First, I would never, ever, buy a Model 12 with the intent to shoot it. I have seen too many with the cracked frame (several theories on the cause, which I won't debate). But if I did have one and was tempted to shoot it, I would use nothing but target wadcutters. Many won't agree with me, but I don't particularly care if they do or not.
I have a 12-2 Airweight and about all I shoot from it are my 140g. WC target loads @ 575fps. If I do carry it then the heavier loads go in.
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:05 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alwslate View Post
You're likely to get replies that are mostly personal opinion but in
general there is lots of evidence that indicates jacketed bullet ammo
does stress the forcing cone area of S&W revolvers more than lead
bullet ammo does. I'm sure someone will disagree with this but I
would advise you to shoot the gun sparingly with your choice of lead
bullet ammo.
I know nothing about this myself, but would have agreed 100% with you that jacketed bullets would be the biggest problem until I read that Pigbike cracked his Model 37 with 158 grain RNL loads. So I don't know, perhaps don't fire it if you don't want it cracked. It appears to be something you can't be sure of one way or the other, at least to me. Maybe somebody with more knowledge can tell us.

By amazing coincidence, a local under-the-table gun-vender who has a great deal of contact with "illegal immigrants" bought what he THOUGHT was a 2 inch Model 10 from a recent returnee who somehow-or-other bought the revolver from someone. I'm sure the first two buyers, the returnee and the local vender didn't pay much for it, but it was available down here to the first person to come up with 800.00 DOLLARS!!! So, since several Club members were interested due to the lack of available guns around here, I went to look at it.

What he had was a Pre-Model 12, frame already cracked. It won't be selling to any of our group and since the story is already out he probably will have a hard time moving the gun now. Oh, well, this guy has scammed so many people with junk at outrageous prices, it's fine with me that he stepped in it this time around.

Since the gun laws are so strict down here you find a lot of real unsavoury characters pendling trinkets for superhigh prices all over the place. Some are decidedly unpleasant -- if not a bit dangerous -- to deal with. Sadly, you meet so few true professionals in the gun-smuggling business it seems no matter what Hollywood will have us believe.








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Old 03-23-2016, 11:35 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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It's been over a year now, but I passed up a cracked-frame M12 at a gun show for $100. Otherwise it was in super condition. I was tempted to buy it for parts, but thought better of it. More recently, I have a friend who got one in a trade but wasn't aware it had a cracked frame until too late. One in very high condition with a good frame would be desirable to me purely as a non-shooter collectible, but otherwise I won't touch them. Why take the unnecessary risk?
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Old 03-23-2016, 03:03 PM
kaaskop49 kaaskop49 is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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The M-12 is an appealing concept that seems to have left a lot to be desired. The 2" RB I bought used caused me nothing but aggravation: it hurt to shoot with LRN service ammo and jammed after 3-4 cylinders. Even my 'smith couldn't figure it out. Adios, muchacho! Frame dimensions were thinner than those of the M-10 in some areas.

While slightly larger, it should have been a viable competitor to the Colt Cobra/Agent, but seems to have failed. I have yet to read on this Forum of frame cracking with these 2 Colts.

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Old 03-23-2016, 03:22 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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I have not heard of any problems associated with the Colt alloy framed snubby revolvers, but have never owned one, just the steel-frame Colt Detective Special which is one of my favorites. I think the additional mass of a steel frame is advantageous to help control recoil.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:14 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Just a dumb question- If the Model 12 is so fragile that just a few rounds can cause failure, why did Smith & Wesson make them for 30 years?
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:31 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Just a dumb question- If the Model 12 is so fragile that just a few rounds can cause failure, why did Smith & Wesson make them for 30 years?
Model 12 buyers not getting out to the range much? Or maybe the guns didn't start cracking until age set in....sort of like myself. I really don't know.
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:44 PM
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I acquired some special, low velocity .38 Special ammunition to shoot in my 4" Model 12 after I bought that gun - I forget the brand offhand. I took it to the range, shot it some, and was satisfied. It's part of a collection, such as it is, and I won't risk cracking it.

I recall the brand! Hornady Critical Defense Lite.

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Old 03-23-2016, 06:03 PM
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We have a member (Saxon Pig if memory serves) that ran a test on a Model 12 with thousands of rounds of +P with no ill effects. The cracking frame seems to be from assembly, not ammo selection, I've seen the same problem on alloy frame J Frames with over-torqued barrels. My safe-queen 12 doesn't go to the range but if I had a shooter I would use standard pressure range ammo and carry Gold Dot +Ps. YMMV.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:16 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Default I wonder

why don't I hear about the j frames such as the model 37 cracking like I do the K framed model 12.
Are the k framed brethern that much more fragile?
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:32 PM
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The only cracked frames I've seen on the mod 12 were all at the same spot,as the above pictured gun. My understanding was the cracks were the result of stress risers associated with over torqued barrels.
Were it my gun, I'd shoot it with good std pressure ammo and tote it with a decent +p defense load like the 135gr gold dot. You use any aluminum gun enough and it will micro fissure and crack eventually....though probably not in your lifetime.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:13 PM
Cal44 Cal44 is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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why don't I hear about the j frames such as the model 37 cracking like I do the K framed model 12.
Are the k framed brethern that much more fragile?
There are a lot of 37s that crack also.

I posed a poll on this a while back.
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Old 03-23-2016, 08:59 PM
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Put it this way - even if only 1% were prone to cracking, why would anyone take a chance buying one to shoot? Collecting, Si - shooting, No.
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:16 PM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Quote:
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Put it this way - even if only 1% were prone to cracking, why would anyone take a chance buying one to shoot? Collecting, Si - shooting, No.
The Aluminum J frames and the M12 K frame were designed as carry guns.

They are light -- their primary advantage for carrying.

They are intended to "carry a lot and shoot a little" as the saying goes.

But, with any gun you carry, you do need to practice some times.

If you want to shoot hundreds of rounds at a session, though, a steel gun is better.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:02 PM
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Once they crack, are they just useless? Or can you continue to shoot them with appropriately light loads?

I suppose I'll find out if the answer is "no"; there's no way the guy who bought that cracked Model 12 is just going to sit on it; he's going to sell it to the first unsuspecting sucker he can find. If the gun gets fired and nothing happens I'll never hear about it. If the gun gets fired and something tragic happens, I'll hear about it. (It will become my fault for never having cautioned that the gun should NEVER be fired in this condition. I said, if I recall correctly, "This gun is useless now that it's cracked, you might as well use it as a paperweight". I suppose under the right circumstances, that could be interpreted as "go ahead and fire it as much as you'd like".)
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:53 AM
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Once they crack, are they just useless? Or can you continue to shoot them with appropriately light loads?

I suppose I'll find out if the answer is "no"; there's no way the guy who bought that cracked Model 12 is just going to sit on it; he's going to sell it to the first unsuspecting sucker he can find. If the gun gets fired and nothing happens I'll never hear about it. If the gun gets fired and something tragic happens, I'll hear about it. (It will become my fault for never having cautioned that the gun should NEVER be fired in this condition. I said, if I recall correctly, "This gun is useless now that it's cracked, you might as well use it as a paperweight". I suppose under the right circumstances, that could be interpreted as "go ahead and fire it as much as you'd like".)
I don't know of anyone who could definitively answer that question. Undoubtedly many of those revolvers which experienced cracked frames probably continued shooting for a while longer, at least until their owners noticed the problem. It probably wouldn't create a safety issue to shoot one, as about the worst that could happen would be for the barrel to go flying off, but I haven't heard of that. It would be interesting if someone with a cracked frame revolver could test it to destruction in the interest of science. It could last forever.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:33 PM
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I don't know of anyone who could definitively answer that question. Undoubtedly many of those revolvers which experienced cracked frames probably continued shooting for a while longer, at least until their owners noticed the problem. It probably wouldn't create a safety issue to shoot one, as about the worst that could happen would be for the barrel to go flying off, but I haven't heard of that. It would be interesting if someone with a cracked frame revolver could test it to destruction in the interest of science. It could last forever.
I'm almost tempted to go test Bubba's Model 12 now that he knows it's cracked and all -- except that if ANYTHING happened, Bubba would pull the old "now you own it" scam on me. But I am sure you are correct, if the guns self-destructed the instant the frame cracked we should have heard about it by now....unless the shooter and his immediate entourage NEVER survive the experience of course. Which is unlikely, but cute to muse about.

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Old 03-24-2016, 02:36 PM
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I earlier mentioned about the $100 M12 with a cracked frame I passed up at a gun show awhile back. In addition to salvaging it for parts, I also considered using it for destructive testing to catastrophic failure. But in the end, I decided it made more sense to keep the $100 in my pocket.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:13 PM
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calmex calmex is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Stuff done "in the interest of science" should never cost 100.00 dollars. That's the Mexican take on it. You did right to keep that money where it was.
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  #27  
Old 03-26-2016, 06:36 PM
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chud333 chud333 is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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If you listen to all the naysayers NOBODY would ever buy
a model 19 or a model 12.
The model 12 had issues due to the over torquing of the barrel
during assembly. The model 19 had issues (none of mine did)
due to shooting light bullets at high velocities thus causing some
forcing cone issues.
Inspect it "before" you buy then shoot an appropriate loading
and my bet is you will NEVER have an issue.

Chuck
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:52 PM
BUFF BUFF is offline
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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The vast majority of Model 12s never crack. Will yours? Maybe, but not likely. People bought them because they are a delight to carry, not a delight to shoot. They weigh very little more than the five shot aluminum J frames but are much easier to hit well with. I have two of them, have shot several hundred rounds through each of them, and they are fine. I don't worry about it.

If you never CARRY a gun on your person, except at a shooting range, then there may be little to no reason to buy ANY Airweight. If you ever carry a gun all day long, you understand perfectly well why people like them.

Folks spend thousands, tens of thousands on cars that they KNOW will eventually fail and be worthless. The cost of ownership seems a reasonable alternative to not having the car. If my carry gun breaks and becomes useless after years of carry, the fact that I got years of service out of it was the price of the use I got.

Will it crack? Sure it might.

Probably not. In fact, it's very unlikely.
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2016, 09:09 PM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is online now
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Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub? Which non+P loads are "harder" on a 12-2 snub?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUFF View Post
The vast majority of Model 12s never crack. . . . People bought them because they are a delight to carry, not a delight to shoot.
Actually, compared to an aluminum J-frame RB, they ARE a delight to shoot.
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