I'm looking at a bobbed hammer model 64 that the seller says is an NYPD turn in. Does anyone know, did the NYPD neuter their 38s to dbl action only like the LAPD did?

Any other history of stainless revolvers in the NYPD would be greatly appreciated. This one's ser# makes it about 1976 vintage, I think.



tnx -

Sgt Lumpy

Neutered? Not by a long shot. They still retain all of the potency.

Defensive revolvers ought to be shot in DA anyways, so what's the problem?

NYPD Model 64s sold to individual officers through the equipment bureau were DAO with bobbed hammers. The ones supplied that way by S&W had a vapor hone finish (think battleship gray) and were marked "NY-1" in the yoke near the usual model designation. NY-1 Model 64s were made in 2, 3 and 4 inch barrels. The time period you mention seems too early for NY-1s. My recollection is that in the mid-70s NYPD authorized Model 10s, as well as equivalent Ruger and Dan Wesson fixed sight models. Dan Wessons had to have barrels that were not removable in the usual manner by the user.

Neutered, eh? First time I've heard it described like that. I like it. I like a bobbed hammer but prefer the SA capabilities be left alone. How do they neuter them to DAO-- remove the SA notch on the hammer?
SCSW says "Several heavy barrel lengths (2",3",4") made for the NYPD in double action only, with a matte finish marked "NY-1" in the yoke cut with bobbed hammer...." and references an article at the end of the model 64 section "NY-1 NEW YORK CITY POLICE MODEL 64s AND 60s" by R.M. Vivas.
Per that article, if what you are buying is an authentic NY-1 model 64, it should have a matter finish and be stamped NY-1, and have the s/n stamped on the frame below the cylinder window as well as on the butt & inside the yoke cut. The article says that these NY-1 60's & 64's result from NYCPD requirements ammended in 1987. It seems like they should therefore be 64-3's or 64-5's.
If this one is a 1977 gun, it's not a NY-1. The SCSW doesn't mention any NYCPD 64's prior to the NY-1's.

IIRC the NY-1 64's didn't come on the scene till 1989 or so. Not all of them were matte finished.

The two I own, 3 inch and a 4 inch have the sweetest triggers I've squeezed on a S&W revolver. Better than my Performance Center revolvers. Both are tack drivers.

I don't consider them neutered. As an old revolver guy, I can't recall the last time I needed SA capability or took a single action shot. DAO works fine, for me.

The bobbed hammers make them slick little carry revolvers too. Regards 18DAI

__________________
7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

It has to say NY-1 on the crane or it's not a NY police gun. S&W made a run of these, bobbed hammers, DA only, but they didn't all go to NYPD personnel. After awhile, S&W bought them back and sold them elsewhere. It is clear that some were sold to foreign personnel because they're now on the market after being "imported" (I have one; well, my FFL has one with my name on it) with import markings on the barrel, such as CA, GEORGIA, VT. That's Century International Arms and its facility in the town of Georgia, State of Vermont.

So, no NY-1, it is not a NYPD model. But it's from the same era.

It's not neutered; they still go bang!

***GRJ***

I would double check the SN, if it is that early its not NYPD.

As far as I know the NYPD worked with Smith to make the NY-1 meet the specs demanded by the NYPD at the time. After the NYPD adopted the DAO 64 it became a non cataloged special order item.

So other departments may have had DAO M64s. They also did a large order from Binks Armored Couriers.

There are also many over runs that made there way to local gun shops.

If it is a 1070's serial it would not be a born DAO and not NYPD. Prior to 1988 (I think, 89?) they had Model 10s in the standard configuration. Also a some Rugers and a rare Dan Wesson.

Some folks collect the NYPD guns...

This photo is out of date, I added more to it since...

Thanks for the NYPD insight...

And even thanks for the unrelated opinions..

"Neutered" is the term that LAPD called their model 10s which were modified to DAO by dept armorers.

I've asked the seller for a little more details on this round butt, bobbed hammer M64.

Thanks -


Sgt Lumpy

Although no one mentioned it, the guns were "neutered" (as you say) to DA only to help minimize the possibility of an unintentional discharge with a cocked revolver, especially in a high-stress situations. When I started with my previous employer, we carried the Model 57 and our policy strictly prohibited cocking the hammer. However, when we switched to the Beretta 92FS, we went to a gun which fired the first round DA and then cocked itself for every shot after that!

__________________
LEO since 1981.

Only an RRG (real revolver guy/gal) would refer to 3" and 4" HB Ks as 'slick little carry guns!'

Pleased to meet you. Stay safe partner.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

What holster(s) did NYPD use for carrying the hammer spur-less revolvers?

__________________
"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Its an open top holster like this.

Most were made by Jay-Pee, right in NYC



I think you could have gotten it with a swivel too.

I have been told that the swivel version was good for having the gun fall out when running and getting in and out of cars

The swivel JayPee holsters were eventually unauthorized to recruits in the academy, but lots of guys bought them when they graduated. The early models were stitched with cotton, and they eventually switched to nylon, which was stronger. And they put some sort of reinforcement around the swivel. Never heard of anybody losing their holster. The swivel was much more comfortable in the radio car. Plus, it had that cool low riding "gunslinger look" to it.

I lost mine in a move. Wish I still had it for range use and nostalgia.

Maybe he was thinking it was a "Bobbitted" hammer instead of a "bobbed one"!

They used a holster made by Courtlandt Boot Jack Co., Inc., 3334 Prince St Flushing, NY 11354. The holsters and other leather goods used by NYPD is sold under the trade name JayPee.

The holster could be made for a 2 1/4 inch Sam Browne belt or for the more prevalent black buckle garrison belt which seemed to be the choice of far more officers. It was available in both belt loop style and swivel type. Neither version had a safety strap and weapon retention was achieved solely by the officer paying attention and a strip of leather across the top of the pouch of the holster which would catch on the edge of the cylinder. Draw was achieved by a slight twisting motion. It was simple and pretty effective. NYPD officers did not seem to have gun snatch episodes in any significant numbers.

I"m a little humored/suprised that the term "neutered" seems foreign to some. Is that a term that only LA coppers know? Maybe they didn't use that term east of the Big Orange.


Sgt Lumpy

Hey, Sarge! To be honest, 'neutered' sounds as though the gun had been deactivated, as for training purposes. Never heard of this back East. But then we have terms foreign out West, such as 'shield,' 'job,' 'mutt.'

Stay safe partner.
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I see what you did there

Most police departments that ordered these did so for a very darn good reason. If you're holding a suspect, you are probably a little excited by events, and having your trigger finger on a cocked gun is a lousy idea. There are also cases where cocked guns were holstered in the middle of a fracas whith bad results.

Lots of people get into the "what ifs" for examples of when you'd need single-action, but usually those folks lead fairly calm lives.

Thanks for all of the holster information.

I am surprised that NYPD was not more conscious of using more advanced holster designs (thumb snaps, etc.). But, the fellow I worked with who had spent 10 years on NYPD surprised me with his lack of knowledge of guns and shooting (and he had several shootouts that proved fatal to the bad guys).

__________________
"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Not many people in the history of the NYPD have had several shootouts.

Thanks Kaas -

We used "shield" as slang for the 'other' LA department. Stars were the SO, shields were city. As in "When I arrived the shields were on scene" or "The shields are handling".

We weren't "on the job" but they taught us that phrase since a lot of NY coppers came out west and would identify themselves by saying the phrase.

"Mutt" I only heard used as in "Mutt and Jeff", a heavy-big guy and a small-thin guy. But I think(?) some of the apple coppers use Mutt as a general term like thug?


Sgt Lumpy

Hi Sarge: Affirmative. "Mutt" refers to a criminal The Feds use the term "mope."

Shamuscull: Not today, but in the past. I knew an NYPD officer who retired in 1980 with 6 shootings ( 3 fatal) in 7 gunfights. A heavy hitter. Never wanted to talk about his incidents, but gave me the most matter-of-fact explanation of why the 158gr RNL 'service load' was useless. It was a different time back then, not better, but different.

Kaaskop49
Shield # 5103

My "85" son had a 10-8 SA/DA issued and the "90" son got a 64-5 D/A only NY1 before they both went to Glocks as service weapons. Have both of these along with a JayPee holster. They both had 36's for off-duty/backup. One guy never fired his 10 except at the range, the one with the 64 was in at least 2 shootouts. Both retired with little interest in guns, they were just tools of the trade to them.

Unissued, 1989 vintage NY-1 as it came from the factory. No S/A capability. Joe

__________________
Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

My NY-1 model. Unfired, cylinder never opened (it's a long story). Also, the comments on those cheap NYPD open type holsters are accurate. We just never had a problem with snatched handguns with that model holster. Not a clue why that was.

Rich

Question; any one have a clue what my NY-1 revolver is worth? Have the mahogany box (with brass nameplate with my name on it) it came in, the blue box that it originally came out of, the Jinks letter and the fact that the gun is mentioned in the Standard S&W Catalog (page 227 if memory serves)?

Don't want to sell it, just curious as to value (approximate value anyway).

Thanks,

Rich

Maybe nowadays. But before the early 80's shoot outs
We're much more common. During the blackout of 77
Guys carried a box of ammo each in the radio car
In case they emptied the 18 rounds already on them

Yes - thankfully.

Both holsters worked perfectly as far as retention is concerned if they were replaced as needed. A leather "thumb lock" isn't going to last 30 years. That said, they were pretty cheap and certainly not the best we could've had.

J&G Sales in Prescott, AZ still has a bunch of 'em. I bought a very nice one a while back for about $250. As said before: NICE action…

I've got a non neutered blue steel used police model 10 HB and has a decent smooth trigger pull and with the broad blade fixed sites your not going to be shooting national match completion :roll eyes: lol . It mostly design for real world gunfight ranges of three feet to 21 feet but with mine shooting da I can get groups under six inches at 25 yards on a standard Silhouette target 6 shots under 6 seconds. Besides with the heavy barrel it makes a nice club if you miss. Just kidding . In fact it's so rock solid it's been my nightstand gun with 125 gain +p+ surefire hollow points for over 20 years. I used go to indoor range in Monrovia ca in the late 80's shoot falling plates all day average session was 300 rounds no jams or misfires all da shooting the gun is a tank. I can see why so many pd's issued the gun doa or sa/da. In fact I am looking around to see if I can get a stainless version it make a great companion to my blue steel model 10

Old thread, but a question unanswered...The holsters were known as "Safety Seam" holsters, by JayPee. I carried one back in the late 1980s (actually still have it) with a model 10 and later with a NY-1 model 64. To get the gun out of the holster you had to slip your thumb inside the holster between the gun's cylinder and the extra piece of leather on the inside pocket of the holster, effectively pushing the leather out of the way, away from the flat, top of the cylinder, freeing the revolver. If all you had to do was twist the gun, then your holster was old and the leather had gone too soft.

To disagree with another poster above...my first experience with safety seam holsters was before I was on the job, working as a courier in Manhattan. I watched a cop get into a squad car on the passenger side, and saw something drop from inside the car as he shut the door. They drove away. My passenger ran out to grab the item. It was the bottom half of a safety seam holster, with the gun still inside. At the top of the holster, there was half a swivel. We ran many red lights trying to catch them and finally after lots of red lights and me flashing my headlights, we pulled them over (strange role reversal). I asked if they were missing anything (yes, I was still a dumb wise-***), at which point I held the holster up so they could both see it. Both officers hands went immediately to their sides, and one loudly answered that it was his. I got a huge thank you and a funny story to remember. So , yes the biggest weakness in my mind to the safety seam was having the swivel let go. It was something I was cognizant of every day until my agency switched over to holsters with a thumb break and no swivel. I remember one other guy I worked with had his swivel go as well.

Terms...mutts. mopes, skels, mates (inmates), bodies, scrapers (homeless, sidewalk living, typically quite mentally ill individuals that were so dirty, you practically had to scrape them off the sidewalk to make an arrest).

And IIRC, the NY-1 (although I thought mine was marked NYPD-1) was brought about after a few incidents of accidental discharge. One I remember, and I think it was the straw that broke the camel's back was of two officers running up a flight of stairs with the gun of at least the trailing officer being cocked. The trailing officer tripped and shot his partner in the ***. Right after that, is when I remember the guns getting switched out for the DAO revolver. I think that was late 1989 or early 1990. Before that, we could have S&W, Dan Wesson, Colt, or Ruger on duty, with the guys having to use 4" barrels, and the ladies having the option of 3" barrels if they wanted. Square or round butt were good, and T-grip adapters were authorized as were Hogue and Pachmyr grips.