And a snub nose J frame or D frame mean't a snub nose?

Most young people like me hear the term ".38 Special" today and they think of a small compact pistol that carries 5 shots in the cylinder (maybe 6 if they happen to know what a Detective Special is) and is used by non-gun people who just want "something" to have in the drawer or a cop or civilian might have as a "backup" gun. The round itself that the gun shoots is deemed "just a .38 special"

But in my dad's generation. (wartime babies and Baby Boomer gen) a .38 Special wasn't "just" anything and it was considered a front line service gun that the average policeman and civilian alike depended on for an all around fundamental defense weapon that had either a 4, 5 or 6 inch barrel.

Before I even bought my first gun my dad had been saying for years that he always wanted "a .38 Special. The old policeman's revolver." Didn't even say a brand name. Plain Jain gun. No bells and whistles. No overbearing grips.

One day, about 9 years ago, I went out bought my first handgun. I had always thought I would get a 1911 .45. Looked cool. But there was something about that plain jane ".38 Special" that dad always talked about that just jumped out in my mind. Used S&W M-10s were here and there under the gun counter at the local gun store. Looked like what I thought of as "A .38 Special." but then I saw a single gun next to them that looked the same only a little better somehow. Maybe it was the straight barrel rather than the tapered pencil barrel. Maybe it was the slightly larger cylinder. It was a Colt Official Police 4 inch that I was told was made in 1944.

I bought it for about $275. Wasn't sure what condition it was. Except the bore looked good. I wasn't very knowledgeable about guns at the time. Didn't know how to check for timing and such. My first gun. And I was excited.

Took it home. Dad was out somewhere. I put it on the stool of his chair in the den for him to see when he walked in.
I heard him come back about 20 minutes later. Walked into the room to see him starring down at it. "That's a .38 Special" he said.

As much as dad admired my first piece, he said he identified more with the S&W version as that's what he remembers the police in Jackson, MS carrying as a boy. About a month later I went back down to that same gunstore, as it was his birthday, and bought a S&W M-10 4 inch pencil barrel like new with the original box from 1971. Wrapped it, put a bow on it. And on his birthday, he was proud to get that. And to this day, everytime I say "your Model-10" he looks at me funny and has to think about it, "Oh my .38 Special?"

(as a side note, I later got him a Post 1972 Colt Agent, yet to this day he still calls it his "snub nose Detective Special")

I later got another Colt Official Police postwar from 1961, had it refurbished and is in better condition. I've gone through a lot of other guns. But it always comes back to that Colt Official Police, that .38 Special that always winds up in my holster, suitcase or on the firing line with me. Much as I love that 1961 gun, I still wish I could restore that 1944 version to prime condition even though it's still a good shooter (it's one flaw is that the bolt can go back up the ramp on one of the notches because the notches are so worn). The .38 Special is not too heavy, not too bulky, no adjustable sights to get knocked out of alignment, no rubber grips to bulge, nor is it too small or too weak and has a sturdy enough frame to handle more than adequate loads. Simple fundamental weapon that becomes a part of my hand.

Well, I'm a baby boomer, but I've never really considered the .38 Special as a serious service revolver. To me it was the .357 magnum or the .41 magnum. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily feel the .38 is a pipsqueak, but it does pale in comparison to the other two. In it's original loading, a 158gr RNL it was marginal at best, quite often overpenetrating. Nowadays it's performance as with the 9mm, is greatly improved by the lighter, faster moving and more efficient JHP's.

Now back in the mid to late 50's every TV cop or detective had some form of a .38 and it was kind of burned into our brains at an early age what a powerful gun it was. But that was TV and movies. Truth is, that was what the the FBI and major departments were using so they must have been the "serious service revolvers", right??

When I was a cop and carried revolvers in the 70's and 80's, my first choice was always the .357. I rarely carried a .38 Special and when I did it was either a Colt Diamondback or a S&W Model 60, but my favorite plainclothes or undercover piece was a 2 1/2" Model 66, which I still have. Okay, I'm starting to ramble, someone else's turn...................

Another baby boomer here. I also carried revolvers for the first part of my career. In 1977, it was a 4" Model 28-2 in one of those new-fangled Bianchi front break holsters. Had speed strips in dump pouches at first. Later got some speed loaders. I even carried .357 ammo.

Later, liability created by a fear of .357 caused a change to .38 Special +P. I then figured I didn't need that heavy M28 and went to the M19. For me, that was the end of the revolver as a duty weapon. I still carried Chief Specials off-duty, but we eventually went to the 645/4506 and changed to 669/6906/3913 models for off-duty and plain-clothes assignments.

The .45 and 9mm, especially now with the available bullet designs, are quite effective, but I still miss the .357 sometimes. However, the current bullet configurations also make the .38 Special a viable round. These days, my duty gun is a G17. I've learned to live with it.

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Dave Frost

Way back when, my first hand gun after the .22 was a .44 mag. Added a .45 a little bit later. To me the .38 was an inferior cartridge . That was until I bought one about 15 years ago. Simply love that caliber. Between the 10's, 64's and J frames I think I'm up to about 10 now. Great guns and more fun than you can imagine.

My dad served in the Army during Korea and immediately thereafter.

When he completed his service, he was allowed to purchase his service sidearm. Which was a 38 special snubby. He still has it today. Never shoots it, but to me, its a piece of history.

My First TWO handguns were revolvers chambered in .38 special and because of those revolvers i LOVE the .38 special.

Unfortunately, I'm old enough to remember when a .38 S&W caliber was a serious service revolver!

1962 I start my LEO career. The Agency furnish the uniform, badge and vehicle .The individual officer furnish everything else. The required service weapon was a six shot, .38spl revolver, with four to six inch barrel (Colt or S&W). I didn't have a .38spl revolver but did have a 1915 DWM 9mm Luger. The local Pawn Shop traded me a used Colt Trooper 4" .38spl (w/ franzite stag grips) for the Luger.

*** in that era a .32 was considered a great defense weapon

I still carry a thirty-eight. It was the issued weapon when I began my career in 1968 and unfortunately I had to use it in the line of duty. It is no wimp, I'm still around because of it.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

+1. The .38 was also the CHOICE of pilots in Vietnam, and LEO's for 90 years.

Back in the good old days it seemed like the people who knew a thing or two objected more to the then common .38 Special ammunition than to the caliber. The original ".45 King" Jeff Cooper himself was not averse to a proper .38 Special in the right circumstances, but he deplored the LRN load for the obvious reasons. Many of us who read his material started using his old "160 LSWC and 5.0 of Red Dot" load that he recommended for stainless Chief's Specials, until it became apparent he was encouraging "handloading delinquency." For some reason, he thought the stainless guns were sturdier than the blued steel versions, which I always thought was odd. Anyway, these days we have better loading data and know there are plenty of .38 Special loads that do the same thing and are not quite so hard on the guns.

I'm a mid term Baby Boomer.....1953

My Dad started carrying a 6inch Colt New Service in .357magnum in 1939; and that's the police gun of my youth.....

In the 60s as a Lt. (when not in uniform) and then Captain he carried a 4 inch Pre Model 10 or Colt Detective Special....... with either the FBI +P 158 SWCHP load or I remember some "Super Vel" ? ammo boxes ...... though I think he settled on the FBI load for everyday carry.

After Law School my first gun was a 4 inch, heavy barrel Model 10..... Dad gifted me a couple of boxes of the FBI +P "Police Only" loads...... .38spl. was for practice only! Within a year I'd traded up to my first 19.

I too, once worked for a state agency that did not allow personal weapons and issued the .38 spl. S&W Model 10/64 with the 4" barrel. Oddly enough, at qualifications this agency did not use the "classic" 158 grn. lead rnd. nose but instead provided a 130 grn. jacketed round nose round. We used to joke about it because if you were in the last group to shoot on qualification days (around sunset), the sun would be directly behind the firing line and if one stood behind any given shooter when they were at the 25 yd. line, you could actually see the bullet in flight. We estimated that round to be giving an actual 580- 650 fps., tops. The good news was that it was an accurate round and easy to qualify with. The other good news was that we later moved on to a .40 S&W semi-auto.

The .38 Special cartridge served the needs of law enforcement quite admirably for 75 years or so.
It's hard to argue with success.

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John

I carried a Smith&Wesson .38 special in combat. Unfortunately the issue ammo, I believe, was the punny 130 grain FMJ. I actually shot it out the door of my helicopter at a VC machine gunner. The only thing that did was get the attention of my door gunner who finished the job (M-60).

I'm a late 'Boomer' born in 1966.

Revolvers were still the police guns of my youth in Tucson, AZ.

However the guns I remember are S&W Model 66's. They looked so powerful. My first experience shooting a handgun was a 4" Model 19 that belonged to a family friend who was a parole officer. He loaded it with .38 Special target wadcutters, and even though it was my first time firing a handgun I did very well with it.

Having said all that, I still have enormous respect for the .38 Special cartridge.

Somebody on another forum posted "The only place where the .22LR and the .38 Special are not deadly is on the Internet." I firmly believe it and trust my life to it sometimes. Right now I'm wearing a Model 60 with 5 .38 +P'S.

My wife's house gun is one of the Aussie 3" Model 10's. She is very accurate with it and I would not want to be an intruder standing in front of her!

War baby (1944)....... the .38 Special is still special. You do your job and it will do what it is supposed to do. My first issue sidearm was the S&W M-15, finished up my Air Force time with an issued S&W M-36 with a 3" barrel. Gott'er done!

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Keep Shootin' and check 6

I enlisted in the Army in 1974, and went into the Military Police. I was trained and issued a 1911, and loved it.

Then in 1980, I became a U.S. Customs Patrol officer, and I was issued a S&W model 66 .357 magnum, with 4" barrel. I initially didn't care for the 66, but after a couple of weeks of firearms training at the academy, I became a very proficient shooter with the revolver.

We were issued .357 magnum ammunition, but most of us carried the Treasury +P+ .38 special developed for the Secret Service. I performed very well, with less recoil and muzzle flash. I carried the 66 as my uniform duty piece for two years, then semi automatic pistols were authorized for use, and I went back to my 1911.

During my career I carried a model 60 as a back up gun, and was even issued a CS-1, but rarely carried it. In 1994, personally owned guns were banned, and we were issued Glock 19s and Glock 26s.

I carried the Glock 19 until 2003, when Customs was absorbed into Department of Homeland Security, and issued myself (I was a Senior Firearms Instructor) an H&K USP Compact in .40 cal. I carried that until I retired in 2005.

Now as a CCW holder, I will still carry my S&W 442. I love revolvers, but because they only carry six rounds, they have fallen out of favor as duty carry weapon for most law enforcement agencies.

You mean a .38 Special is NOT a serious caliber? I didn't get the memo!

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Peter
S&WCA #2620

I still remember when an M&P was a revolver, made of steel, and +P ammo was standard .38 ammo, and the safety on a revolver was located between your ears...
but I digress.

Yup, used to be THE law enforcement round.

I'm a Gen X'er and grew up in the era of the Wonder Nines and AWB. As a cop I've carried .40 S&W GLOCKs but I always had a 642 until a recent policy change. I own Model 64s, 10s, 15s, etc... and I have carried them off duty numerous times. I respect the .38 Special and know that it can still do the job. Has it been eclipsed somewhat with newer cartridges? Sure,but it hasn't diminished in its lethality. The .38 Special with a good modern JHP will still lay the smack down if need be and I don't feel under armed with one.

Doug.38PR
What a great story, I think it's great that you and your dad are/were so close.

I remember when I was 11 years old (1950) on a family visit to relatives in Kentucky. I was in the back seat of our car when my dad and my grand-uncle, a country doctor, were talking about a local miscreant who got shot by a homeowner. I remember "uncle doc" speaking about the fact that he was shot with a .38 special, not a .22 or a .32, in somewhat reverent tones. The .38 special was still a big deal in that era.

Here are a couple of standout .38 special guns that were commonly used by police in the 1920s and 1930s. The one on top is a S&W M&P, Model of 1905, 4th change, dating from 1923. The lower gun is a Colt Police Positive Special, 1st model, which was produced in 1922. Both have 6-inch barrels.



When the Smith N-frame Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman .38 specials were introduced, they took the new higher-powered .38/44 cartridges, which today would be considered on a par with many of today's .357 magnum loads. These guns were the direct predecessors of the .357 revolvers. Here's a 1957 Heavy Duty:



The .38 special is not to be sneezed at as a viable defense cartridge even today.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Have the good luck to be friends with a former armorer
who has told me tons of things about old and new guns.
Because of that, I have respect for cartridges that are laughed at
in today's world. Nowadays, I'll carry just about anything,
in the knowledge that generations have depended on .25's,
.32's, & etc. to protect the people that carried them.
The way I see it, you're only under-gunned if you are Not
carrying. A 442 with 200gr goodness in all the holes is
my current load, but I'm not worried if I'm using wadcutters, either.
We all have to find our own way.....
TACC1

With the right ammo, I think an M&P from 1947 ...



... would still be a "serious service revolver".

GF

Paladin,

Don't have any experience with the .38 heavy duty.......

..... but I seem to remember that the .38 spl. case was/is a "black powder" size case and there is a lot of room in there for smokeless powder.... to get that .38 moving to .357 speeds and power.

The only reason for the ".357cartrage" was to give it a longer case so it wouldn't fit in all those old .38s out there.......

Seems all our ammo is wimpy compared to the era when men were men and .....Elmer Keith was building true "hand cannons!"

Many shooters today think that they can use "spray-and-pray" in place of careful shot placement. They frequently use the "I'm being attacked by multiple assailants" argument. This has elevated high-cap semi-automatic pistols to fashion statements.

When I was instructing, I would ask my high-cap-infatuated students what those assailants would be doing to justify the student shooting at them. "Why, shooting at me, of course". Then I would ask how the high-cap pistol would protect them from all those incoming rounds while they were shooting. That question was usually followed by a brooding silence.

Next, they would pop up with "well, the 38 is useless" at which point I would share the exploits of a couple NYPD officers and their experiences with plain ol' M10 38s.

After that the conversation usually devolved into suggestions about the marital status of my parents. "A man convinced against his will is unconvinced still"

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Yes, but it was also TV and movies where cops packed 6" .357s under their suit & blazed away with little recoil, or fired a .44 magnum with a single hand. And seem to "stitch" the bad guys, connecting with every round, when in truth the best law enforcement agencies manage 25% hits (dunno if that # is current)

I'm with you GF. A good standard pressure load with a LSWCHP bullet will clean a miscreant's clock.

I would have a 1952 M&P today but the one I recently saw at a local LGS was poorly refinished and had a trigger like an RG-Rohm. For $400+!!! Well, this is the People's Republik.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Super Vel, pretty advanced ammo for the time. Lighter weight bullets, sharp angled ogive, a +P type loading, and an exposed lead hollow point to help assure expansion. I still have some in .44 Mag laying around the house somewhere. It's what I carried in my 29 back then.

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Even older, even crankier....

Great father and son story, Doug, thank you!

When I started out in shooting I didn't have the time of day for a ".38," except for a Detective Special as it was the only kind of gun I felt appropriate for the round. Times change and now I own 7 and would not be without one. They are just fun to shoot. Because for me, shooting is mainly about fun. Otherwise I'd probably be happy with just one gun. I know my wife would be.

Down here in the swamp we like 'em grey to keep 'em from turning brown. Certainly wouldn't be undergunned with this. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

The .38 Special is just as effective as it always was, which is considerable. There's just a lot of hype today in order to sell new guns and ammunition. Reliability and Shot Placement matter most, the rest is extraneous.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor

WOW, OH WOW !!
A S&W Model 64-no dash ! My first Agency issue service revolver.
If I had a "Wish" I would have one again. No bells, whistles, or high capacity, just plain business. Brings back fond memories.

I took my son to the range last week. At 19 you would think he would want to shoot my Sig's or Beretta's, something more "modern", but no... the old Model 10-8 was his first choice.
It is always in my range bag, always used and treasured.
It is one gun I will never sell because I like it's history and tradition,

Excellent, excellent point. I will not complain about new "stuff" coming out. Heck, that's what makes collecting fun. We just have to realize that the introduction of new items (guns, ammo, holsters, whatever) is designed to entice us to buy. And that enticement is easier to achieve if a siren voice from the wings is whispering "the old one you have will no longer work."

All of my handguns are 38 revolvers (OK, one 357). I ain't too worried about being defenseless.

And I am still using "old fashioned" leather holsters as well.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

My first center fire pistol was a .38 special COLT MK-III a State police turn in...I then bought a 2nd one both were nickle plated...I paid $129.00 each for them...believe they were a odd 5" bbl. I then had to have a snub like I saw millions of times on those 1970's tv shows!! Got a charter arms undercover. Then I was brainwashed by the "gunshop counter jockey's"....YOU NEED MORE POWER.....over the next almost 20 years I had 15 different 44 mags...hot rodded 45 colts....I fired thousands of rounds...may be why I have Arthritis in my hands now...I then tappered down to the 9mm & 357.....Now my last 5 guns have been 38 specials J frames mostly...but one model 65 mixed in a 3" model I sold in a moment of stupid...so I have come full circle back to the grand old 38 special...I got a 1960's model 60 I'll take to the grave... I always shot the 38 special best...and evey thing I shot with it died!! I can't say that about the 44 or 45...lol I'm sure it was a shot placement issue...cause I'm always more care full with the 38...I think we suffer from over confedence with the bigger cal's...long live the 38 special!!...in the 80's they talked of it being "DEAD" LOL

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Model-60 Chiefs Special

I've never been able to afford to be a collector or even an accumulator. My profession for 37 of my 55 working years was notoriously underpaid but needed. I need guns that will work to defend my elderly carcass--I'm no boomer, but a high-mileage 1937 model.

I have them. A 2" J-frame for EDC and a fixed-sight 4" K for home defense. Both .38 Special, both stoked with the old FBI load. Everything I need and nothing I don't, to quote a phrase I read here fairly often.

The combination of revolver and .38 Special +P 158-grain LSWCHP has been getting the job done for many years. It's what I'm comfortable and confident with, and certainly not marginal in my book.

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Oh well, what the hell.

A serious service revolver, indeed. I went into the service after high school in 1963 and was in the military police. A 38 special was the only thing anyone used. We didn’t think about much else. Some would talk about their guns at home but every one learned to use that revolver. When I got out of the service I picked up a 38 special for myself. I had friends show me 357’s and 44 magnums and tell me I needed more power, but for some reason I always felt at home with the 38. I have an M&P 9 but I still always carry a 38 special. I’m not a great shot and never competed. I’ve never pulled that gun and hope I never do, but if I do, I’m confident it will do what’s needed. They say practice makes perfect but at my age, practice is fun.

Walk by a policeman and glance at his holster and he has REAL BULLETS in it.

Another LEO that started back in the '70's. In my agency the 38 Special it was recognized that you were going to need several rounds to stop a determined attacker.

Officers that were serious about surviving gunfights carried .357 Magnum ammo and if they really flush a Colt Python or S&W Model 27.

.38 Special a serious service cartridge-no, a capable service cartridge- yes.
Even as far back as the early 1930's the search was on for a more powerful cartridge leading to the .38/44 and then the .357 Magnum.

I'm grateful to take the .38 Special seriously around here, no two ways about it! I have snubs but don't think of snubs first when considering the .38 Special.

There is no way for me to prove it but I would guess that the .38 Special has put down more men than any other single cartridge.

Others would say that "honor" would go to the 9mm.

The .38 Special would probably be in the running for the most for a revolver cartridge but the lowly .22 would probably be the winner.

A low capacity .38 Special can handle multiple assailants at close range just fine. Bernie Goetz shot 4 attackers on the NY Subway in less than a minute with a S&W Model 37. None of them continued to attack him..........

I read some where, several years ago that more homicides have been committed with the .22RF than any other round. However, cannot provide the source of that info.

Also, in my earlier post I neglected to recognize the OP, it is an excellent tribute to the OP's father. Good job.

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Keep Shootin' and check 6

My first handgun was a nickel plated 6" Model19...still my favorite pistol. we have 3 snub 38's one stainless, one blued, one hammerless alloy (my CCW piece)... a friend of mine used to talk about how a 38 wasn't big enough...I always asked him how he'd feel about getting shot with one of those lowly 38's....long pause....as powerful as a 44, hell no, but good enough to do the job if you do yours....certainly.

Wonderful thread, wonderful story and bond with your dad.

I loaned, (gave really but he always referred to the "gun I loaned him") to my dad years ago, a Colt Police Positive Special in .38 Special. My mom asked to keep it after he died. We were visiting today and she related how much he liked the revolver.

I started with the 357 mag back in the day, and now carry a M&P 45 ACP as duty sidearm, but have shot many, many rounds with the 38 and it is an adequate defense round.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)