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Old 04-08-2013, 10:37 AM
dabney dabney is offline
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Default Jim Cirillo's Service Revolver, the Model 10.

Sometimes in the late 1980's I read an article by Massad Ayoob on the Military & Police Revolver of S&W. In this magazine article, Mr. Ayoob listed some of the different agencies that issued the Model 10, to include specific individuals who carried the same as part of their day-to-day job (cop). One of these individuals was Jim Cirillo, of whom Massad had a close friendship with. I believe most everyone knows or has heard/read about this "legend" of a man and cop! His exploits on the Stakeout Squad of the NYPD in the late 60's is well known and recorded. In this article there were several photos of different types of Model 10's with different barrel lengths and cops holding/posing with their respective Model 10. In one photo of a well-worn Model 10 with a 4-inch Heavy Barrel, Ayoob identified this as the Cirillo Model 10. This Model 10 had the wood service grip panels with grooves cut into the wood for the fingers to get a good hold/grip. Also in the pic was the S&W Target Hammer and that puzzled me because of the double-action-only philosophy of Cirillo, himself. That Target Hammer feature on his 10 would indicate the possibility of "precise" single-action fire by Officer Cirillo, under the right conditions. I don't know how many people have seen, through a picture, Cirillo's Heavy Barrel Model 10, but it has the Target Hammer and that would not be very user-friendly in double-action-only fire! I read the book, Tales of the Stakeout Squad, several times. There is a picture of Cirillo on the front cover (paperback) holding a Model 10, similar to his own back in his cop days. That 10 does not have a Target Hammer and it is in way to good of condition to be the same one I saw in the old Ayoob article mentioned earlier. I believe Cirillo was just posing with that 10 for the photo. The 10, from his NYPD times was sporting a lot of cop-wear-and-tear and had the tell-tale Target Hammer, well known to Model 10 fans. I don't know if how many forum members may have saw the pic of the original Cirillo Model 10 or may have actually seen it! Whatever the case, what was the story of the Target Hammer on his sixgun? He (Cirillo) may have had the need to deviate from his DAO style, right moment, right time, and right situation for a single "precise" shot! My take on the modification (Target Hammer) of his 10. Please correct me if you know me to be in error here on this great gunfighter legend, Jim Cirillo!
David
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:56 AM
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Default Grip tape

Was it Cirrillo who wrote that he wrapped his grips with electrician's tape -- the high grade stuff that doesn't leave your hands black -- to fit them to his hand? That was an early days PPC method.

As I recall the story, he imagined unknowing onlookers as thinking something like, "Look at the dumb cop who wrapped his broken grips with tape."
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cirillo View Post
I carried four handguns: two Model 10 revolvers, a Colt Cobra, and a PPK.
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Originally Posted by Jim Cirillo View Post
I bought the regular model and then the bull barrel when they came out with that modification. I think my bull barrel only cost $40.
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Originally Posted by Jim Cirillo View Post
Both were excellent shooters. With either one I could put a bullet in your right nostril or your left nostril, they were that accurate. The old one had dinnky sights, like a little slot. The bull barrel had better sights, plus I altered them. One of the fellas was an amateur gunsmith, and he actually filed a slot in the back of the rear sight and he put a blade at an angle so that was always shadowed, and made a nice, big, square notch in it- ah that worked beautiful. On the front sight I had a ramp cut flat so that I would have a better silhouetted sight picture. I did the gunsmithing on the action- it was smooth as silk.
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Originally Posted by Massad Ayoob on recollections of Jim Cirillo View Post
Jim was among the first to wrap his grips with friction tape to prevent hand slippage. It became a trend among PPC shooters. His duty guns, except for the backup in his pocket, were wrapped the exact same way, always including a homemade grip adapter with an exaggerated flange between the middle finger and the ring finger. (On the street in uniform, smart-asses would say, "Hey, Mr. Po-leece, your gun handle busted or sumpin'?" And Jim would reply with a wolfish grin, "Yeah, that's it. Probably won't work, huh?"
All quotes taking from Jim Cirillo's Tales of the Stakeout Squad by Paul Kirchner
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:34 PM
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Default Jim Cirillo

I knew Jim from FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center).....he was a very competent instructor and a no non sense man who had "seen the elephant" several times.....he is also a good example of a good man with a basic no frills revolver / ammo combo who relied on marksmanship and skill sets rather than trying to replace those critical assets with some kind of fancy hardware.....we are fortunate to have/had fellows such as him in our midst. He is missed.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:59 PM
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Maybe he tweaked the springs a little and the heavier hammer made for more reliable ignition. Just a thought.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:22 PM
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My M13-2 wears a Target Hammer, and its DA works jes' fine, thanks.

Larry
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:56 PM
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I got to know Jim when I was a young copper shooting with the LAPD Pistol Team. Great guy; we corresponded a lot, mostly discussing PPC shooting techniques. Jim was an adherent of DA shooting across the course, including the 50 yd phase.
I also was pretty good buddies with one of his partners, Bill Allard, who I shot with on the All-National Guard Service Pistol Team. Bill was an incredible bullseye shooter (and LOVED to eat) who won the Civilian Bullseye Championship at Camp Perry. He used his NM Colt hardball 1911A1 at Perry, which was also his primary in more than one shooting, until Management told him to use the approved weaponry. Funny guy, great marksman and a credit to the NYPD.
Bob

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Old 04-08-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Collects View Post
Why would a target hammer hamper double action shooting?

I shoot revolvers with target hammers in double action mode, with no problems.
Maybe that's why you, I, and EVERYONE with the '3 T's' are exceptions.
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:07 PM
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Maybe that's why you, I, and EVERYONE with the '3 T's' are exceptions.
Well, I'd dump the Target trigger, ...

otherwise, DA with a Target hammer is not an issue...
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:26 PM
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Default hammer spurs

Hammer spurs have never been an issue with me, as I have always removed them from every duty and carry revolver I own. Triggers on DA revolvers I always want them narrow , rounded and smooth. Give me a die grinder, round file and some sand cloth and I will make them that way.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:32 AM
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Collects, an S&W Target Hammer is designed for thumb-cocking "precise" single-action fire. A man, like Mr. Cirillo, would NEVER have a Target Hammer on his 10 for "no-reason" sir. The Target Hammer is "NOT" ideal hardware for double-action-only shooting sir! Whats the point of having a Target Hammer if you are strictly a DAO shooter? Mr. Cirillo had a reason for that Target Hammer as the Model 10 (then in 1959) did not come from the factory with that feature. All of the printed material I've read on his combat use of the Model10, he shot in DAO-only. For some "unknown" reason he installed that Target Hammer and he "had-a-reason" for doing so. Also, I'm not a talented a shooter as you are sir and I still get tighter group with "single-action" fire. I've never been able to get the close groups in double-action as in single-action. You stated in your post "anyone" with enough practice in double-action shooting can match single-action shooting! Not for me! You need to re-think your position on that because the whole concept of the older single-action only Model 14 was for "precision" close groups in shooting contests. Target Hammer and all! Sure, you can shoot double-action with a Target Hammer on, but "why" go to the expense and trouble of installing a wonderfully designed S&W Target Hammer if you do NOT intend to use it and "now" apply that sir, to Mr. Cirillo and the point I made on his target Hammer!
David
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dabney View Post
Collects, an S&W Target Hammer is designed for thumb-cocking "precise" single-action fire. A man, like Mr. Cirillo, would NEVER have a Target Hammer on his 10 for "no-reason" sir. The Target Hammer is "NOT" ideal hardware for double-action-only shooting sir! Whats the point of having a Target Hammer if you are strictly a DAO shooter? Mr. Cirillo had a reason for that Target Hammer as the Model 10 (then in 1959) did not come from the factory with that feature. All of the printed material I've read on his combat use of the Model10, he shot in DAO-only. For some "unknown" reason he installed that Target Hammer and he "had-a-reason" for doing so. Also, I'm not a talented a shooter as you are sir and I still get tighter group with "single-action" fire. I've never been able to get the close groups in double-action as in single-action. You stated in your post "anyone" with enough practice in double-action shooting can match single-action shooting! Not for me! You need to re-think your position on that because the whole concept of the older single-action only Model 14 was for "precision" close groups in shooting contests. Target Hammer and all! Sure, you can shoot double-action with a Target Hammer on, but "why" go to the expense and trouble of installing a wonderfully designed S&W Target Hammer if you do NOT intend to use it and "now" apply that sir, to Mr. Cirillo and the point I made on his target Hammer!
David
Kinda takin that a little personal? I didn't pick up on any hostility on the part of collects, but maybe I'm missing something.

I agree that for all practical purposes, most people can learn to shoot as well double action as single action. Maybe he put a TH on his model 10 for a reason, or maybe he bought it used and it was on it when he got it, nobody knows. I do know that somebody who plans to use a double action revolver in single action mode is generally going to be slower than somebody shooting it double action. The difference in "group size" is not a significant issue when dealing with targets other than those made of paper that don't shoot back, while the time that it takes to cock a hammer can be the deciding factor in the outcome of a force on force encounter.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:15 AM
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My K22 CM which for all intents and purposes has the same grip/frame geometry as a model 10 has a target hammer (not sure if orig. or not) and I shoot almost exclusively double action. The target hammer has never been an issue in DA shooting in any way and I use a high grip hold.

A target hammer has a slightly lower profile, and might be a little less likely to snag on something, and it's more blunt and certainly less "pointy", sharp or whatever and less likely to jab a hole in you if you happen to hit it with your hand etc. while it's in the holster, which you might do while running or engaged in some other vigorous activity.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:11 PM
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Collects, I used way too many sirs in my last post. Please be so kind as to look over an old lawmans weakness, and that weakness being a "hair-trigger" problem. Your post resonates with thoughful discourse and my "verbage" should have been constructed and engineered better! A target hammer, for the most part, is for single action fire. My point with Jim Cirillo, was over a pic, first seen 20+years ago. I have a very unclear copy of the magazine pic showing the Cirillo Model 10, target hammer very clear though. I, for over two decades, puzzled over that feature and never heard or read anything about it whatsoever. I think it is a "given" that the very pro-active, ahead of the curve man, like Jim Cirillo, had a purpose other than it made his 10 look cool. It also is a "given" that Mr. Cirillo was so talented and skilled, in several directions, that he had scant few peers walking around on this planet. Thanks for your input Collects, as I re-thought my position!
David

P.S. I would very much like to know about Cirillo's Target Hammer and did he in fact have a "specific" mission for it.
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Old 04-09-2013, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dabney View Post
Collects, an S&W Target Hammer is designed for thumb-cocking "precise" single-action fire. A man, like Mr. Cirillo, would NEVER have a Target Hammer on his 10 for "no-reason" sir. The Target Hammer is "NOT" ideal hardware for double-action-only shooting sir! Whats the point of having a Target Hammer if you are strictly a DAO shooter? Mr. Cirillo had a reason for that Target Hammer as the Model 10 (then in 1959) did not come from the factory with that feature. All of the printed material I've read on his combat use of the Model10, he shot in DAO-only. For some "unknown" reason he installed that Target Hammer and he "had-a-reason" for doing so. Also, I'm not a talented a shooter as you are sir and I still get tighter group with "single-action" fire. I've never been able to get the close groups in double-action as in single-action. You stated in your post "anyone" with enough practice in double-action shooting can match single-action shooting! Not for me! You need to re-think your position on that because the whole concept of the older single-action only Model 14 was for "precision" close groups in shooting contests. Target Hammer and all! Sure, you can shoot double-action with a Target Hammer on, but "why" go to the expense and trouble of installing a wonderfully designed S&W Target Hammer if you do NOT intend to use it and "now" apply that sir, to Mr. Cirillo and the point I made on his target Hammer!
David
Just a thought...maybe we're reading too much into this. For whatever reason Jim had a target hammer installed on his M10. It was probably done at the NYPD Firearms Unit at Rodman's Neck. It might have been as simple as Jim wanting another hammer when he tuned his revolver and all that they had laying around was a target hammer. Jim probably didn't care. That happened to me when I went into the LAPD Armory and had another hammer installed on my M67. I got a narrow M64 hammer, instead of the usual semi-target M67 hammer. To a great shooter stuff like this is inconsequential. Something else to remember...DA shooting has evolved over the years. In 1959 SA fire was used by "most" revolver shooters. Bullseye was still king; PPC and DAO hadn't reached the popularity it had from the '60's through the 90's. Like all other revolver shooters, Jim most probably evolved as a marksman. As he got better, he never changed the hammer; it wasn't important. LAPD-issued revolvers in the '50's and '60's were normally shipped with target hammers and narrow triggers, per dept requirements. Just my thoughts.
Bob

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Old 04-09-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by loc n load View Post
.... Triggers on DA revolvers I always want them narrow , rounded and smooth. Give me a die grinder, round file and some sand cloth and I will make them that way.
Me too. I think the target/service hammer thing is inconsequential -- I like them bobbed but it makes no difference (to me) in shooting, just less likely to hang up on clothing in concealed-carry mode.
The Cirillo quote mentions buying a bull-barrel (HB model 10 I assume) when they came out-- perhaps those came with the target hammer and he just never saw a need to change it. I read one of Cirillo's books and can't recall for sure, but maybe the stakeout squad guys weren't too concerned about concealing their carry guns - in which case a TH would be just fine. I seem to remember photo's of guys in plain clothes but wearing duty belt rigs.
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Old 04-09-2013, 03:12 PM
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I also seem to recall that Jim Cirillos idea of reloading a revolver was to fire a gun until it was empty and then open the gun hand to grab another loaded gun. Gravity, being what it was, would allow the empty, and now useless gun, to fall out of the way.

Having seen my share of Model 10's that hit the ground, they have an uncanny ability to land on the hammer spur, breaking it off or, bending it down and rendering the gun useless. Could the heavier hammer be a little more durable? Did he have so many hammers replaced, they just fitted whatever was in the parts bin at the time? That would also be wierd as I doubt the armorers at NYPD would have ANY target hammers in stock.

Who knows. I always wondered about the dropping an empty gun tale though.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:12 PM
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I also seem to recall that Jim Cirillos idea of reloading a revolver was to fire a gun until it was empty and then open the gun hand to grab another loaded gun. Gravity, being what it was, would allow the empty, and now useless gun, to fall out of the way.

Having seen my share of Model 10's that hit the ground, they have an uncanny ability to land on the hammer spur, breaking it off or, bending it down and rendering the gun useless. Could the heavier hammer be a little more durable? Did he have so many hammers replaced, they just fitted whatever was in the parts bin at the time? That would also be wierd as I doubt the armorers at NYPD would have ANY target hammers in stock.

Who knows. I always wondered about the dropping an empty gun tale though.
You'd be surprised by what parts are in an armory of almost 40,000 cops. Something to remember is that in those days, pistol team and personal revolvers were usually worked on by dept armorers (for free). Also, I'm willing to bet that any confiscated S&W or Colt (or any other gun that was "needed") would have ended up at Rodman's Neck for parts, or testing. My dept had literally drawers full of parts for Colts, S&Ws, 1911s, BHPs, etc.
Bob
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:50 PM
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Many new coppers really have no clue,.. through n fault of their own, of a departmental armorer or what they do or did. When we qualified we had to have our weapons inspected and repaired if nessasary by them and it was a free deal. They would clean them, repair them and give you excellent advise on their care. Dang I miss the good ole day's.
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:30 PM
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NYPD guns were supposed to remain totally spec and any modifications needed to be approved. We were limited to what type of grips we could put on the gun. In Cerillo's day, while those rules were still in effect, they obviously ignored them since Cerillo's squad used homemade hollow points, M1 carbines, BAR's, and anything else they wanted. Cerillo was also the inventor of the term NY Reload, meaning carrying two guns and dropping the one empty to draw the second, so I can see how the dropping of a revolver could screw up the hammer, and I would imagine a Target hammer might be a bit stronger.

Funny how at the end of his life, Cerillo carried a Glock, though.
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Old 04-10-2013, 01:25 AM
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Interesting thread.

Thanks to all the guys who responded .
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:34 PM
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I haven't seen the picture, but from reading the posts it appears that everyone is assuming that the revolver in the photo belongs to Cirillo.

Ayoob says JC wrapped the butt of his revolver with tape and the handgun in the picture is described as having "wood service grip panels with grooves cut into the wood for the fingers to get a good hold/grip".

I doubt the revolver in question belonged to Cirillo, a wide hammer is too likely to snag on clothes etc., he was too savvy a gunfighter for that!
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:33 AM
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NYPD guns were supposed to remain totally spec and any modifications needed to be approved. We were limited to what type of grips we could put on the gun. In Cerillo's day, while those rules were still in effect, they obviously ignored them since Cerillo's squad used homemade hollow points, M1 carbines, BAR's, and anything else they wanted. Cerillo was also the inventor of the term NY Reload, meaning carrying two guns and dropping the one empty to draw the second, so I can see how the dropping of a revolver could screw up the hammer, and I would imagine a Target hammer might be a bit stronger.

Funny how at the end of his life, Cerillo carried a Glock, though.
He carried the Glock 19 didn't he? I have a couple articles published just a couple years before his death in which he was pretty complimentary to the model.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:56 AM
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Dang, I wish I woulda knowed that a target hammer and trigger wasn't cool back when I was carryin' this ol 58. I woulda probably throwed it a way.



We was in some serious social encounters and din't git kilt none. Sure glad I din't know I was usin' inferior equipment.
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:21 PM
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Dang, I wish I woulda knowed that a target hammer and trigger wasn't cool back when I was carryin' this ol 58. I woulda probably throwed it a way.



We was in some serious social encounters and din't git kilt none. Sure glad I din't know I was usin' inferior equipment.
You were just dang lucky iggy. Yep. Totin around piece of old junk like that. What were you thinkin?
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:21 PM
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He carried the Glock 19 didn't he? I have a couple articles published just a couple years before his death in which he was pretty complimentary to the model.
In his video, Secrets Of A Master Gunfighter, He trained with, and preferred a Glock 20 in 10mm. with an after-market barrel.

From Tales Of The Stakeout Squad:

"Toward the end of his life, Jim had become a Glock man. He used a Glock 20 with custom , extended 10mm barrel as a deer hunting pistol. His preferred carry guns were the Glock 30 .45 ACP compact and the Glock 27 subcompact in .40.....there were days when he carried the old hammer-shrouded Colt .38 too."
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:04 PM
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There is another possibility ...

In Cirillo's videos, he describes the handgun grip position he adopted due to his short, thick fingers. Everything he did was deliberate, so it's not inconceivable that a target hammer simply worked better on that particular revolver due to his hand/finger size.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mc5aw View Post
There is another possibility ...

In Cirillo's videos, he describes the handgun grip position he adopted due to his short, thick fingers. Everything he did was deliberate, so it's not inconceivable that a target hammer simply worked better on that particular revolver due to his hand/finger size.

At LAST. The voice of reason. Every gun, modification, and shooting style is NOT done with a ulterior motive. Sometimes they just fit YOU better.
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Old 07-04-2013, 03:38 PM
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There is not much in the world of defensive shooting a well practiced person can not do with a Model 10 - especially with today's ammo available. A 3" - 4" M10 and BB Heavy 38 special +P's is like having a low end .357 Magnum and that is enough for just about any bad guy.

If I am not mistaken, Jim was also a big fan of the .30 M1 carbine when raiding a house or building.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:42 PM
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There is not much in the world of defensive shooting a well practiced person can not do with a Model 10 - especially with today's ammo available. A 3" - 4" M10 and BB Heavy 38 special +P's is like having a low end .357 Magnum and that is enough for just about any bad guy.

If I am not mistaken, Jim was also a big fan of the .30 M1 carbine when raiding a house or building.
I'm also a big fan of the GI 30 Carbine, to the point of casting and handloading my own Ideal 311 359 PT GC boolits. That sharp point cast of sorta hard lead really penetrates. Each one doesn't hit like a .45, but it's SO easy to put 3 or more in so close together with that low recoil.

As to the target hammer, and for that matter the target trigger, that's the way I like my 57 set up and I'm no better with it single action than I am double action. A smooth action is the absolute KEY.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by texagun View Post
In his video, Secrets Of A Master Gunfighter, He trained with, and preferred a Glock 20 in 10mm. with an after-market barrel.

From Tales Of The Stakeout Squad:

"Toward the end of his life, Jim had become a Glock man. He used a Glock 20 with custom , extended 10mm barrel as a deer hunting pistol. His preferred carry guns were the Glock 30 .45 ACP compact and the Glock 27 subcompact in .40.....there were days when he carried the old hammer-shrouded Colt .38 too."
Yes that's right. I looked up the articles. He liked the G19. Said it was a good sized frame and fired an adequate load if the shooter made sure they used a good load, but he did not carry the G19.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by chief38 View Post
There is not much in the world of defensive shooting a well practiced person can not do with a Model 10 - especially with today's ammo available. A 3" - 4" M10 and BB Heavy 38 special +P's is like having a low end .357 Magnum and that is enough for just about any bad guy.

If I am not mistaken, Jim was also a big fan of the .30 M1 carbine when raiding a house or building.
I believe a chopped stock .30 carbine was one of Cirillo's stake-out team guns.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:39 PM
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If Cirillo had a TH, he must have wanted a TH.
Maybe he did like to shoot some SA. Maybe he wanted to pop a distant pigeon now and then.

When one shoots a gun set up like he wants it to be, it is possible to become as good DA as with SA for most practical shooting. He might still occasionally want to shoot SA for maximum precision. I used to shoot gophers in a garden with a handgun. They were about the size of chipmunks. Even though I was at my peak for DA shooting, I still usually shot them SA because of the target size and distance.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:32 PM
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I agree with Lee. NOTHING with respect to his shooting, his guns or his ammo was done at random, by accident or because "the armorer only had a target hammer to replace his broken standard hammer after a New York reload."
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc5aw View Post
There is another possibility ...

In Cirillo's videos, he describes the handgun grip position he adopted due to his short, thick fingers. Everything he did was deliberate, so it's not inconceivable that a target hammer simply worked better on that particular revolver due to his hand/finger size.
+1

I carry a Glock 33 everyday as a backup at work & off duty. It functions exactly like my issued Glock 22 does. It simply works for me. You may be devoted to the 1911 or S&Ws etc. etc. That's A-OK too! When we find what works for each of us,we should stick to it like Mr. Cirillo did. After reading his books, I believe that he tried different things until he found the right configuration. Nothing more scientific (or accidental) than that......
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:18 PM
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IMHO, no gun is perfect for everyone and agencies should provide options or allow personally owned firearms.

Still gotta read Cirillo's book!
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:37 PM
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I knew Jim after we'd both retired from the NYPD. I'd find it unusual for Jim to put a target hammer on a ''serious'' Handgun. The S&W revolver can be fired more accurately double-action than when using the SA mode.

A million years ago, when firing my 10 slow/timed/rapid fire, even when firing slow fire only DA was used. Yeah, takes some practice and development of muscle memory but that's how it was done.

The hammer pictured below is on my service model 10. Never use it (decoration, I guess!). Note the smoothing of the ''teeth'' on the hammer? Saved on clothes.



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Old 07-05-2013, 05:50 PM
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Couple of comments- I don't know about the use of a target hammer, but if you're using a service type holster, most of them require a hammer spur to retain the weapon (particularly in ye days of olde). The second comment is that a hammer spur comes in very handy in the case of a high primer or other minor interference that might prevent a DA stroke from turning the cylinder. A hearty yank on the hammer spur can rotate the cylinder and allow the shot a heck of a lot faster than a NY reload.

Back in the day, I needed to do that during a qualification after a cratered primer hung the cylinder up. We figured that out after the stage was over-there weren't any alibis in our qualifications.
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:17 PM
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As I mentioned I first really spoke with Jim when we were both retired from the dept. (I became chief of police in Wellfleet MA PD). We traded books (I've published a few as did Jim). He was very gracious and put this very nice comment in the book he sent to me (Guns, Bullets and Gunfights).

If anyone cares I just put out another one, Practical Handgun Training:

photography, Framed in Wellfleet Welllfleet, MA Books for Sale


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Old 07-06-2013, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
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.......The S&W revolver can be fired more accurately double-action than when using the SA mode........
I question this statement. I will agree that it can be just as accurate in DA as in SA for some shooters (unfortunately not including me), but MORE accurate?
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:22 AM
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I question this statement. I will agree that it can be just as accurate in DA as in SA for some shooters (unfortunately not including me), but MORE accurate?
Yup. That's been my experience. And all of the firearms instructors at the Outdoor Range at Rodman's Neck (those that were shooters at any rate) also seemed to be of the same opinion. I watched guys, shooting their model 29s, at a silhouette match plunking their big .44 slugs into the metal targets at god-knows what distance (I forget now...), all DA.

The S&W K-frame and larger revolvers have wonderful triggers for DA work. While Colt did make some nice handguns I found their DA to be "stagey." I attribute that to their "V" main spring.

With the S&W, at least for me, I find it best to take up most of the slack on the DA pull and then make sure my sights are aligned for that last little bit of pull remaining.

Rich
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Old 07-06-2013, 09:48 AM
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Jim, was always a gentleman, I was lucky enough to spend many occassions with him as well as Bill Allard at Rodmans Neck, I still see Bill occasionally when he stops in to visit the Range, both are and were Gentleman and true "Cops"with a wealth of real world experience and knowledge.

Here is a quote from one of Bills encounters that was written about.

" Bill emptied his Ithaca 12-gauge shotgun into a pair of heavily armed gunmen, only to find both of them still up and running after a total of five solid 00 buckshot hits. Transitioning to his S&W Model 10 service revolver, he pumped three .38 Special bullets into each man’s chest. By that point, both gunmen were down, but one was still trying to shoot him from the floor with an auto-loading carbine. Bill dropped his empty .38 and drew his specially authorized backup, a 1911 .45, and put seven rounds into the last gunman’s torso and the eighth into his head. Reloading from slide-lock, he realized at last that the gun battle was over and both of his antagonists were dead."

Bill was gracious enough to allow me to try out that Colt 1911 National Match as he still carries it, the last time I was with Jim he had his Glock 27.

P.S. that "Oldflatfoot" guy below that liked my post may know a thing or two or three about those NYPD
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Old 07-06-2013, 11:27 AM
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Bill Allard interview comes in around 22:00,

010 Save The Blue Trail Range and a Conversation with Bill Allard « The ProArms Podcast
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Old 07-06-2013, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SG-688 View Post
Was it Cirrillo who wrote that he wrapped his grips with electrician's tape -- the high grade stuff that doesn't leave your hands black -- to fit them to his hand? That was an early days PPC method.

As I recall the story, he imagined unknowing onlookers as thinking something like, "Look at the dumb cop who wrapped his broken grips with tape."
My grandfather has the grips of his old service revolver (6" Colt Official Police) wrapped in friction tape. I can recall as a kid asking why he did that. It looked horrible and would make your hands sticky.

Now that I'm grown and a copper myself I fully realize the benefit of what he did. Pretty forward thinking for a lawman of the area before rubber grip sleeves and "tacti-cool" gadgets.


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Old 07-06-2013, 12:19 PM
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Hi:
During my career I observed a number of target hammer bent from dropping. Most of the spurs would bend straight up, but a few bent down rending the revolver unable to fire.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
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Hi:
During my career I observed a number of target hammer bent from dropping. Most of the spurs would bend straight up, but a few bent down rending the revolver unable to fire.
I remember bent hammer spurs being "bobbed" and trimmed by dept gunsmiths for just that reason!

Rich
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:39 PM
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I really enjoy following this thread, especially the comments by those who were close to Jim Cirillo. I was fortunate to have had some contact with Mr. Cirillo in the mid-80's when I was detailed to FLETC for several months as a firearms instructor for my agency. One of the big benefits to me, of which there were many, were being able to hear first accounts of gun battles from the participants, including Mr. Cirillo. I was also privy to read about other encounters from official files. These were great lessons. I can't add anything about the Cirillo model 10 specifically. I do remember that when I was rubbing shoulders with Mr. Cirillo, he was a big fan of the CZ 75. I also remember some accounts of the NYC stakeout squad. IIRC, he told of an account of an armed robbery and the stakeout squad's primary weapon was the Ithaca model 37 in 12 gauge, loaded with slugs.
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