In a moment of total lack of self control, I bought a 15-4 2" barrel Like new, no box today. I thought I knew enough, but maybe not. The original grips were not on it. It had the familiar round butt pachmyrs. That did not concern me until I got home and looked in the Standard cat of S&W. The product codes only indicate square butts for the 2". I thought the 15 2" was like 10's, 12's and 19's. Short barreled variants could have (and more often had) round butts. Am I just a putz?
thanks,
fuzzy

Is it in fact a round butt under the grips?

It appears they are out there despite what the catalog says. I always had been told there were no round butt 15s until you get up to -8, but last week I picked up a 4" no dash round butt.

Zonker,

Thanks for the response. Since the pacs completely cover the grip frame, I did not see the frame. Obviously, next week I will go back to the store and ask them to remove the grips and look. I certainly don't want to pay good money for a gun whose grip frame has been altered.
Fuzzy

Fuzzy,

You can pop the grips off yourself. Only 1 screw and it's dead easy to do.

-Z-

All the 2" 15-4s I have seen were square butt frames, with rounded bottom or PC Magna stocks standard.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

If you paid a "collector grade" price thinking you got a collector grade gun, I'd agree. But if you paid a shooter-grade price, IMHO I'd be glad it had a round butt since (for me) they conceal and handle so much better than a sq butt. Like Zonker suggested, the actual butt may be sq inside those Pachmayrs. I have to admit that I fooled myself once into buying a sq butt Chief wearing Pachmayr Compacs, thinking it was a round butt.

The bottom rear corner of the grip frame makes a pretty good impact weapon when you run out of ammo.
The short barrel/full sized grip frame makes the gun easy for you to control/retain, and hard as hell for a BG to try to take away from you.

If you decide you don't like it, you can probably make your money back, easily, by selling it here.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Definitely remove the grips yourself and check, though it is unlikely that round butt grips can be made to fit a square butt frame.

Personally, my only problem with the snubby 15 is its square-buttedness, so you might've gotten lucky (if it's a professionally done rounding).

I agree with hotrod150, this largely comes down to whether you paid collector grade or shooter grade, how much you like the revolver, and its overall condition. Should you ultimately take exception, I do think you have a case to make with your gun store, because the alterations to the gun are under the grips and therefore were non-obvious under standard inspection.

And no, you're not a putz -- if you accumulate older firearms long enough, you'll have the occasional misstep in inspection and purchase -- I know I have.

Thanks to all for your info. Regarding collector grade, I paid $450. Adjusted for kalifornia prices, that's a good price on a mint model 15. I am not sure I call model 15's collector guns, but it is about the only snubbie I have never had, and I will shoot it.
Regarding gun store responsibility, I feel I am very fair to gun retailers. I buy very little on line and spend good money at all my local shops. If the frame has been modified (I have seen it done) the gun is not worth that amount. I will expect the shop to offer my money back and price the gun accordingly to someone else. I believe that is fair to both parties. I am happy to entertain a different take in this.
Bless you all,
Fuzzy

Hey Fuzz, please let us know how it turns out next week at the LGS. This is an interesting one. Good luck.

If the gun has been altered you should get your money back. If it is a factory round butt I'd hang on to it, there don't appear to be many like it and it will be a sweet shooter.

I may be wrong, but I thought that the upper front corners of the frame on the 2 inch M15 were different from the 4 inch M15. Didn't the 4 inch have the tapered corners to match up with the lines of the tapered barrel of the 4 inch? And didn't the front sight go all the way to the front of the frame to match up with the ramp base on the Baughman sight on the 2 inch? If the above assumptions are correct, it should be easy to determine if you have an original 2 inch that someone modified to round butt versus something else. Statistically, it is not likely that you stumbled upon that rare factory one-off about which we all hear rumors. My guess is that the frame is converted to round butt. Whether the revolver started as a 2 inch or was a 4 inch on which the barrel and related ejector parts were changed when it was round butted is probably more easily determined by inspection of the top of the revolver where the frame meets the barrel. Pictures would be helpful. As far as getting a refund, it is possible the dealer never removed the grips and did not know. On the other hand, it is a shooter, and to be fair, the factory should have produced the M15 snub in round butt in the first place. The reason they didn't is because they essentially standardized a military contract item. With a round butt, it is more concealable. So, if the work was well done, you probably have a desirable combination of traits and you should consider keeping it since you said you would be shooting it. Clearly, if it is not factory, it is not a "collector," but that isn't why you bought it in the first place.

Ok, here we go. I don't blame the dealer for not removing the grips to check. I am sure he and I will work it out.
It has occurred to me that the barrel is not original, but the finish is near perfect, matching all over, and looks very original, so I think it is. If it is round under there, of course I will keep. If square and the grips have been cut out, i will also keep.
Lastly, I promise to give y'all the final story when I get it.
Fuzzy

I guess I'm alone here, but why didn't you research the gun before you bought it? You said you have the standard catalog.

If the dealer stated it was a rare factory round butt and was altered but not factory, I think you should get your money back if it can proven.

As one responder said, if it's a factory rd butt keep it. If not ask for your money back. Ok, if it benefits me, I won't say anything, if it doesn't benefit me I'll complain.

Ok, buyer beware. As long as they did not tag it as something rare or verbally represent it that way, oh well.

Square butts are better because they can hit somebody harder and are harder to get taken away by a bad guy? Really? Somebody is watching way too many movies.

I'm surprised no one has suggested to a lawyer involved.

Dave

Never seen or heard of a round butt 2" Model 15. Always see them with square butt, blue or nickel. I think this version should have been round butted for the same reason the Combat Magnum 2-1/2" guns are: maximum concealibility. If you are looking for an unaltered gun, you'd better verify the butt shape, and whether it is factory or not, and buy accordingly.

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FBINA, 204th Session

While I prefer a SB frame with a 4" barrel I prefer a RB frame on a snub,

The tell tale sign of a conversion will be the serrated grips straps becoming smooth where the RB conversion begins ,
if converted make sure the serial number stamp on the heel is intact,

If you prefer a RB KT frame consider the Model 19 or 66 snub that will also digest .357 mag ammo .

In the late 60s I had a Model 15 4" converted to a round but. A S&W collector traded me out of it and would not believe that the round butt was not "Factory". This "Conversion" can be done by a gunsmith who knows what he is doing.

Gun shop wouldn't know the difference. Heck have you ever bought/seen a used gun at a shop that was even cleaned?

+ 1 BJoe, my LGS sells/trades used guns "as is". If I have a problem with one I take it back and get something different, no cash involved, they get it fixed and back in the case (only twice in the last eight years). Definitely buyer beware. The Revolver Check Out thread is well worth reading and committing to memory.

De Oppresso Liber

all very interesting positions. Regarding a square butt converted to round. I am not currently holding any smiths while I type, but my recollection was that the inner shape of the round and square butt frames were different. Please correct me if my memory has failed me. My feeling was that no cut square butt would look EXACTLY like a round butt. I cant disagree that I probably should have taken the grips off before i laid my money on the table. That is why I wouldn't twist his arm on a refund.
fuzzy

Will someone please buy this man a screwdriver? The suspense is killing me.

I am really curious too
I think from reading all the posts that the OP has not yet actually taken possession of the gun? Not sure but since its California there is a 10 day wait. And I think that's 10 business days....

That explains it. Thanks.

It's ten calendar days (so far).

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Dave Frost

About a year and a half ago I bought my very first Chief Special, a 2" model 36. It had Pachmayr Compac grips and was sitting in the display case at the LGS, and I ended up making a deal with the owner and taking it home. It was my impression at that time that almost all Chiefs were RB and that SB was very uncommon. I had already bought a set of RB uncle mike boot grips, so imagine my surprise when I got the gun home and took off the pachmayrs only to discover a sq butt. I took the gun back the next day, but the LGS guy told me that used gun sales were as is, where is, and (barring malfunctions) final. He wouldn't give me my money back but did offer to buy it back (at a lower price). I was pissed, but had to admit that he had a point -- if there was any doubt, I should have removed the grips and checked.
As far as someone asking why not do research first...I often stop in at LGS's when I'm running errands. I don't generally pack my SCSW around in my car, and you just can't count on a gun still being there the next day if you decide to go home and research it before buying. So it's kind of a "pay your money and take your chances" show unless you wanna maybe let it get away.
Personally, unless I was counting on a collector-grade original gun, I would be jazzed to get a RB model 15 snubby- more so than a SB. But to each their own.

You guys crack me up. Sorry for the suspense. I am hoping to get to the LGS today and look under the grips. I promise to post answer tonight.
Fuzzy

I think someone fails to grasp basic physics and mechanics.
The corner of the square butt concentrates the impact force of a downward blow to the skull.
Simple physics.

The snub barrel offers no leverage for a BG to try to take the gun away from you.
Simple physics/mechanics.

Which part do you fail to grasp?

If you like, you can come down to GA and volunteer to be a test subject.

You can try to take the revolver away from me, and I can bash you in the head with the butt.

You'll have to sign a waiver, of course.

Would that convince you?

All in the interest of science, of course.

The world hates a know-it-all.

Seriously, though, the physics of it are not hard to understand.

No, I don't watch a lot of movies.
TV and movies take away from range time.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Regarding your 2" square butt model 60, I can understand your frustration at not getting a RB gun when you were expecting one. However, from a collector standpoint you found one of a special run of about 1000 from 1984. Consider it something of a consolation prize .

Hopefully the OP's model 15 situation turns out similarly.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

BTW, my previous post was in jest.
Don't get upset.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

David
Thanks for the clarification
I know when I lived in CA it "felt" like a month

I feel for my brethren in CA.
I don't like waiting for something I've ordered, much less for something I paid for in-store.
15s are probably my favorite K frame.
Yeah, like I can narrow it down to one "favorite".

I keep hoping a 15 snub will show up locally.
No luck, thus far.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Ok guys, here's the answer. It is indeed an original round butt. Am I 100% sure? I am never that sure of anything, but the frame is the correct shape and size, the rib goes all the way down the blackstrap, and the internal shape of the frame matches pictures of a round butt K. In a month or so I will post photos, and obviously I will letter the gun ASAP.
Thanks again for all the great data.
fuzzy

Great -- more waiting for us all...



If it's mechanically and cosmetically to your liking, I say you're already in the win category: it's either a rare factory round butt, or a high quality after factory job.

Waiting to hear from Mr. Jinks...

The suspense was killing me...GREAT find!!!

hardcase60

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You want me to do what?

I still don't understand why you have not told us what the upper corner of the frame looks like where it meets the barrel. If the corners are tapered, then the frame belonged originally to a 4 inch gun. Period.

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Fuzzy your thinking of the J frames , K round and square are the same inside so are easily converted,

All the 2" snub 15's I have seen were SB frames but of course the phrase that comes to mind is " The only thing absolute with S&W is nothing is absolute with S&W"...
Also the 15 snub frame is unique as stated above because its the only K target .38 special frame that has a frame that doesnt step down to meet the barrel just like the snub 19 and 66 frames, also has the long rear site that goes all the way to the barrel like the snub 19/66.

I had a 15-3 snub a few years ago but could find no niche it would fill that the Model 19 snub or Model 10 snub wouldnt do better...
IMO S&W fell short of the mark by not offering a 3" barrel version with full length ejector rod and matching one in .22lr.

engine guy,

thanks for the clarification. i was only going by memory (which fails me more often than not) I also kinda agree with you about the application of the 2" 15. The only other one I ever
considered was offered to me by a detective who was retiring. I was buying his duty Colt officers model match and he offered my the 15 2" for $85 I think. I said to myself "What am I gonna do with that?"

Shawn, sorry about the barrel info, I was unaware of that distinction. I promise to post many photos when I get it so y'all can educate me. I have many Smiths, pistols and revolvers which I cherish, however, that does not make me an expert obviously.
always a pleasure, fuzzy

The harder-to-take-away-from-you aspect has some merit in discussing self-defense guns, but the advantages of a SB vs a RB for "skull-bashing" don't even show up on my radar when it comes to choosing a gun.
FWIW the RB guns have better aerodynamics so are better for throwing at your opponent when you run out of ammo....

I'm liking this. The debate over "square butt concentrates the impact force of a downward blow to the skull" vs. "RB guns have better aerodynamics so are better for throwing at your opponent when you run out of ammo...." Where do you stand??

hardcase60

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You want me to do what?

I've never understood why the 2" Model 15 has never been catalogued in a round butt configuration. I've always thought how cool it would be to have one. I've never even seen a 4"' round butt, at least not in the -4 or earlier. I'm anxious to see the OP's pics, especially the detailed ones of the grip frame. And if it's what he says it is I will be duly envious.

As for Pachmayr's and similar grips, I always ask to remove them, if no other reason than to see if there's any rust damage hiding under them. I actually had to walk away from a really nice 15-3 in a pawn shop once. It had a set of Hogues on it and they refused to either let me remove them or remove them for me. I said, "What if I buy it and there's rust under them?" Bet you can guess what the idiot's answer was. Anyway, I digress. I've found a lot of round butts hiding under them Goodyears!

Oh, and one last thing. Anyone who "plans" on hitting someone with the butt of their gun better re-think their defensive strategy. Oh there may be that situation that would require such a maneuver, but I wouldn't let frame configuration be a determining factor in a defensive handgun purchase. Besides if the gun is wearing rubbers it kinda makes it a moot point! Personally, I'd rather sharpen the front sight and slash their throat with it! Just sayin'.......

The wait is over. Please tell me if you think this is original.
fuzzy

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Well it certainly looks well done if it was after market. Are you able to provide pics of the backstrap as well as closer of the lower third of the grip frame. From my perspective it's hard to tell for sure, and it might be shadows, but the back strap looks a bit flatter than normal on the lower third section. I don't currently have any round butt K frames to compare to so I can easily be wrong.

Cool revolver which ever way it turns out.

I wouldn't care if it were OEM or aftermarket.
I'd carry it with pride.
That's just copious quantities of K frame goodness and PFM, rolled into one package.
Ten pounds of awesome in a five pound sack.
There's NOTHING about a K snub that I dislike.
They have a warmth and sensual beauty that NO brass-barfin', bottom feedin' Tupperware Block can touch.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

It looks exactly the same as the round butt on my Model 10 snubby.

Wow..is all I can say. It sure looks correct in the photos.

Where are these non standard Smith's suddenly appearing from? Did a worm hole open up in the gun universe somewhere?

Sure seems it lately, as we have seen several guns posted here on the forum lately that supposedly were never made.

That for sure is a letter canidate to know, "The rest of the story".

Congrats!

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Take your time..quickly.

A $50 letter of authenticity from Roy Jinks would settle this once and for all.
Firearm History Request - Smith & Wesson

Jaymo,

Please allow me to reuse this quote "NO brass-barfin', bottom feedin' Tupperware Block can touch". PLEASE!! I love it............and it darn near made me wet my pants from laughing.

Best regards,

hardcase60

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You want me to do what?

Sorry for the slow reply guys, tis the season you know. Will post more butt pictures (not mine of course) in a day or two. Maybe some bad news though. I dug out an old set of factory K round grips, and they do not fit very well. Quite a bit a frame sticks out the front. I now doubt the originality. I will post pics nontheless.
The good news is that I was able to put a few rounds out of the gun after my IDPA match on Saturday, and she shot like a beauty.
more to come, fuzzy

I have a 2" Model 15-4 Square Butt in as new condition also.
Mine has serations on the back strap.
Does your Round Butt have serations or is the back strap smooth??

If you lived somewhere besides The Peoples Republic of California I would swap with you in a minute, converted or not.

Reguarding price, in my area $450 would be a shooters grade with about 80% finish. I have a little over $600 in mine.
That was a load, but in as new condition probably not all that bad considering they no longer make them.

Bob

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ICORE MO2908

Bob,
Thanks for the input. Yes, both the front and back straps are serrated all the way down. Here are a couple of additional pics. Just to put this issue to bed, I will send for a factory letter, but I think the service grip pics tell the true story.
fuzzy

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	IMG_3242.jpg (68.9 KB, 87 views)