A relative of mine this week was telling me that she found his fathers old smith revolver in the drawer and he wanted to sell it to me (she has no interest in guns or any knowledge) S/N D6745xx I told her to send me some close pics and after the best inspection I could I pulled the trigger amd sent her $375 for this 12-2 shipped to my ffl. Well after picking it up today, I noticed this crack in the frame. Which could not be seen in the pics she sent.

I'm not angry, I own many many smith pistols and this is the first frame crack I've ever encountered. I'm also not asking for my money back from my cousin, as it was not her fault. She has offered to pay me back some of it but I just told her to take me to dinner and beers next time I'm in town.

Such a shame that such a great condition revolver is totaled. The grips are flawless as is the blueing. I've already sent smith a customer service email with all of the necessary information so we will see what they say. This gun has been fired about 300 times, and stuck in a drawer for 30 years.

I'm not getting my hopes up but I've heard smith customer service is pretty great, and with cracks like these I might get a current production model at a discount or even free... has anyone ever had a situation like mine with a pre lifetime warranty airweight like mine in this condition. I was looking forward to handing down this one to my kids.

Best Regards
Vince

That is the standard place for these guns to crack; the prevailing theory is from over-torquing the barrel on assembly, not from firing. Since S & W no longer makes this model or parts, I suspect they will not be able to offer any recourse.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Murphydog thank you for the prompt response. I will document this experience though from start to finish as I am a loyal customer and fan. They make a great product, its just unfortunate to see such a fine condition old revolver go to waste.

Vince

I suspect a master welder could fix that. Nothing to lose?

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No life story has happy end.

This has been discussed a number of times here. While perhaps technically possible, it's really not economically practical: Smith & Wesson Forum - View Single Post - Just bought a Model 12-2 with a CRACKED frame (photos)

Like murphydog said, the factory is not going to be able to do anything about it. It's now either a paperweight or it can be parted out to recoup $150 or so.

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SWHF #448

Parting out is a viable option but bear in mind the thickness of the hammer and trigger on a 12-2 are .240" . . . thinner than a regular K-frame. Kind of a good news - bad news situation . . . to someone with a pre-12 thru Model 12-3 they would be worth a premium. For anyone else . . . not so much!

The barrel, cylinder and internals can be re-used with any K-frame.

Russ

If you can't find someone to weld it like Saxon said, I'd keep it and put it in a shadowbox in my man cave.
It's still cool.

Actually the cylinder is longer than any other K frame 38 and the barrel forcing cone is cut shorter to accomodate the extra cylinder length so again barrel cylinder are only usable ona Model 12-3 or older.
IIRC the Model 12 cylinder might actually be the same length as a Model 19-5 and higher .

Russ, the M12 cylinder (and thus likely the barrel, also) is a bit tricky: Model 12 cylinder same length as 19-5

As for the trigger and hammer, I'd like to find a nice matched pair to smooth and bob as replacement drop-in parts for my 12-2.

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SWHF #448

If this is true and its an assembly problem then while not able to replace or fix this particular revolver, S&W certainly can and should do something. If its an acknowledged issue then the time frame is irrelevant as is any life time or non life time guarantee. It was hosed the day it left the factory. I would be looking for a heck of a deal on a new gun from S&W.

Are you sure it's a crack or did the epoxy paint split? I can't see it up close to tell did you pick at it with a Scribner to make sure it's a crack?

I'm almost positive its steel. The frame is alloy. The cylinder is also steel.

Well, it doesn't hurt to ask.

SVT28,

I am about to start an argument, but here goes.

While a cracked frame is definitely not a situation to be desired, it is not a safety issue!!!!! The worst thing is the barrel will not be held tight and may rotate. What is the cause of the cracks? It really isn't because the barrels were "over-torqued" during assembly. There are two reasons for this. First, the barrels are not held in by torque. Under continuous pressure Aluminum and its' alloys will flow away from the pressure and become loose even without use. The barrels were not held by torque, they were glued in!

S&W installed Model 12 barrels using what appears to be a Loc-Tite product. Ones I have removed the resin appears to be the Green "Sleeve Mount", a very high strength product used to retain engine sleeves and valve guides in the automotive industry, generally diesels engines. It gives a stronger retention than a press fit! This is what I have used when re-installing barrels in both Airweight, and steel frames when the barrel turns too freely past the index point. Others who work on revolvers use the same method, they have posted that on this forum.

Check the barrel and see if it is loose at all. If it is then send me a PM and I will tell you what to buy, where to get it, and how to use it. There is no reason to scrap a perfectly good revolver because of what is little more than a cosmetic defect!

If the barrel seems to be tight then go ahead and shoot the heck out of it, you certainly can not do any harm! Definitely continue to check the barrel for tightness every time you shoot it, and if it is ever found to be loose then see the paragraph above.

Once you have fired, say 500 rounds, come back and do another post to let everyone know what happened. Or, if you want to get rid of it I will give you $100 for it shipped to my FFL. I have wanted to get my hands on an Airweight with a lunette crack to experiment with but haven't found one. Let me know if you are interested.

Thank you both for pointing out the cylinder and barrel differences . . . I stand corrected.

Russ

Agree with alk8944.
its not going to explode or anything like that.
Model 12s are great carry guns.
I'd have no problem firing it from time to time and carrying it.
My 12-3 is a favorite carry piece.

I'd like to see S&W issue a new one with a scandium frame.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I was just looking at a -2 at my LGS last week. It was in very good condition with the box. I'll have to look again and check for a crack.
I was considering buying it, but they didn't have a price on it yet. I think the stocks are unique to that gun, too.

Well I appreciate all of the responses so far. I think I am going to keep it and shoot it leisurely. If yall don't think it will "grenade" in my hand with some .38 spl standard, maybe 20-25 rounds a visit then why send it back in for them to trash it?

If Smith says send it in, we will send you a 442, I would probably be inclined to do that. If not then I will keep it. It will be at least a year or two before I shoot 500 rounds out of this revolver as I have plenty of other guns to shoot. Most guns of this age that I own rarely get shot anyways (My cherry 39-2 comes to mind).

Thank you everyone who refrained from dubbing this little gem a "paperweight". My feelings never get hurt but the 12-2's did

Another better pic to show the condition. Hypothetically these grips would NOT fit on my 13-3 correct?

Vince

Nope, the grips will be a bit thinner.... they will work, but you will feel the ridge of metal.... I too would shoot it and never look back.... these are some of my favorite smiths! I would carry one if they still made em (without the infernal lock LOL). Enjoy Sir!!

Here is what I think on welding it. PS, I used to be a certified pipe welder, certified welding inspector, have made a living around some excellent welders and we talk all the time.

Welding it is certainly possible with a pre and post weld heat treat. Couple of things. If the barrel is out you would the internal threads would be messed up and with the fine threads used in Smiths it would be difficult to repair them with a tap. You could turn a hollow stub of brass and thread it in then make the weld, drill out the brass until very thin then clean it up and I think you could come out OK. Or you could make sure the barrel is lined up and make the weld. You would end up with some weld penetrating into the barrel thread. Wouldn't be a problem unless you need to remove the barrel at some point, then I would cut it off, drill it and try to clean it up like the brass stub idea. Anyway you do it you would need to mill the flat back under the barrel. Be an interesting project. You would probably have trouble getting a regular shop to do it even if the had excellent tig welders. Liability issues and all.

The model 12 is an aluminum alloy frame . . . does this technique apply to aluminum?

Russ

IF…this doesn't work out for you or if S&W decides to replace it for you, please pm me.

My 12-2 has been without grips far too long.

Regular K frame grips can be sanded down to fit a Model 12 because they are thicker.
if you put a pair on your Model 12 you will see how much you need to sand down below the washer.

Is your gun a RB or SB ?

This is frustrating. Since I have done a little more research about these frame cracks, I am starting to see that this problem is not isolated with just Model 12's. I've seen steel and alloy framed revolvers of all vintages reporting this problem.

Smith and Wesson have probably handled thousands of revolvers with this problem. I would assume they handle it with the same resolve. Most of the situations I've read about have come from people running standard pressure ammo through their revolver. These revolvers, like someone else has mentioned, were doomed to be trash before they ever left the factory. I am hoping I am not SOL.

I am tempted to shoot the heck out of it, but I am deeply concerned about the handgun grenading in my hand.

So as of right now, I am going to put everything on hold until Smith and Wesson gets back to me. If they say send it in, we will offer a substantial discount or replacement, I will send it in. If they say send it in, and we will scrap it, and no recourse will be given then I will keep the revolver or put it up for sale on the forums with an appropriate price.

Thanks again for everyone who has contributed. I will try to call S&W today on my break and see what they say. I have only emailed them so far.

Sincerely
Vince

I find this thread particularly interesting.
If it were my revolver I would shoot mild handloads in it until the barrel falls off.
I would make sure I was wearing excellent eye protection when shooting it, but you should doing that in any case.
My guess is the barrel will never fall off but would act safety wise as if it could.

People have posted 22lr Model 617's with cracked frames too so it happens.

Dont forget that the company has changed ownership since your gun was made ,
Its a little like contacting Dodge today and saying my 72 Plymouth has a cracked block.

Your wise to ask because they might just offer you a trade in as the 12 has a reputation of cracking the frame so its a bit of a design flaw.

With todays design advances they could overcome the problem and reintroduce the model but unless it was in 357 mag or .22lr probably wouldnt sell well.

This isn't necessarily true. For every cracked one, there are probably thousands that don't crack. In fact, there's a thread here detailing an experiment where one guy purposely tried to get his to crack by putting more than 1K +P rounds through it and the gun functioned fine, with no damage or adverse effects whatsoever: +P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!

The internet has a way of amplifying problems. Unfortunately, some Airweights crack. Unfortunately, you ended up with one of them. This doesn't mean every Airweight out there should be written off as junk, however.

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SWHF #448

It is a round butt. Only problem with sanding is as you remove wood on the side next to the frame, the grips circumference is also reduced due to the grips natural taper leaving grips that are smaller than the frame.

I didn't mean ALL guns were doomed, just the ones with this same crack in the same place. I am not naive and I'm sure this is an anamoly of sorts but the point I was making was this is a consistent problem with multiple models, and I hopw this situation is resolved in the same manner as past situations with model 12, 37, 38, 637, 442 etc etc.

SVT, I do not know if you are a collector or not but this gun is pretty enough that displaying it would be a good option. I think someone suggested a shadow box and that certainly would display it nicely. The other factor is that it belonged to a relative of yours. You can buy lots of nice guns but none has a family connection as this one would.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Oh, didn't know it was aluminum frame. First would have to look at what type of alloy. Some aluminum alloys have very poor weld-ability. But if it is a weldable aluminum I believe you could thread a piece of tool steel, insert and then tig weld, then unscrew the dummy. The problem is in the heat treat, aluminum doesn't heat treat the same as steel and is more prone to distortion than steels like used in guns.

I think it is possible, but I also think that with welding the possibility of re cracking would be high. Not worth it. I will have a talk with my brother, but, he is working a job and on the clock 13 1/2 hr a day 7 days a week for 3 more weeks soooooo.

Should of kept my mouth shut, thought we we talking steel frame. I am a STEEL guy. Steel is king. On the 8th day he created steel and on the 9th the men of steel. Till then everyone just kinda sat around picking their teeth. LOL

The idea of scrapping an old Smith...whether done by an owner or by the factory...makes me nauseous.

I've seen Smiths I wouldn't pull the trigger on if you put a gun to my head (pun intended), but I have a thing for older objects like vintage guns, old Crockett spurs, old photographs...things that make good displays, sort of "found objects", for lack of a better term.

If I wanted a new gun, I'd buy one, but I'd keep this gun even if I never fired it.

Further research indicates that the aluminum used in receivers is usually 7075 which is not considered weldable. Sorry

I keep forgetting about the aluminum alloy guns. I am not a big fan of aluminum in the stress areas of guns. It will work but, it is not going to be as durable as steel. With the same cross sections it will not have the life expectancy of steel. Just won't.

In many ways the material and heat treat of metals is a game of trade offs. Weight vs tensile strength vs hardness, vs toughness. to get one you must sacrifice some of another. There are very few "free rides"

Spoke with Derek at S&W customer service yesterday. He was a super nice guy, and very helpful. I have a paid FedEx label on the way right now, it couldn't hurt to just send it in and see what they say. I will keep everyone posted. From what I was told, it is up to the inspector to decide what the next course of action would be.

And as much as I would love to just keep this gun, I buy guns to shoot them. I've thought pretty hard about this and with the crack, I will not roll the dice and shoot it.

If Smith says no dice on a complimentary replacement or doesn't offer me a near full discount on a new revolver, I will ask them to send the gun back and probably keep it or sell it here on the forums.

Vince

Lets hope they don't offer a worthless percentage off another gun and refuse to send your gun back to you for liability reasons.

Even weldable alloys are tough to weld, prone to cracking. Welding is not allowed for aircraft repair on any metal, for example, period.

I did work with a guy years ago who could acetylene weld aluminum pop cans. No one believed him of course, and each new shop monkey would be drawn into a bet to see him fail. The guy had the smoothest touch I have ever seen, used a ton of gas to flow over the weldment. He tried to show me how but I could never hold the torch light enough.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

"I will ask them to send the gun back"

You have two chances of that, slim & none....

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I agree that if it is cracked you wont get it back. For them to have you send it in tells me they already have a plan on compensating you in some way for it. They know it occurs so they arent bringing it back for research.

Say you had a M14 frame and you wanted to turn it into a snubby ,would the bbl-cylinder combo work? might be kinda neat if you had a bulged bbl or rough gun around if possible.

Stop guessing. Get hold of the same employee and ask him if they will return your property to you, absent some other offer you agree to.

That gun is YOURS. I don't see how they could lawfully keep it. If you are not satisfied with their offer, demand it back. They will probably up their offer.

So, how many of us would slap on a pair of Goodyears before returning it to S&W?

Why? Simply ship it with no stocks, why go to the expense?

My luck some pencil-pusher at S&W would look at it and say "incomplete gun - sorry can't help you" or words to that effect.

if you send that gun to S&W you will never get it back.

So...updates


I decided to keep the pistol, AND shoot it. Put 60 rounds through it last weekend, standard pressure. No issues, and my hands are still here to type this post.

The crack has not gotten any more severe. Barrel has not rotated. I cleaned it and put it back in the safe. I will shoot it from time to time and report back round count and issues if they arise.


Best Regards
SVT28

Glad to hear of the positive outcome.

Best of luck.

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"Sacramento" Bruce Conklin

Good move keeping it.

I echo the comment that if you did send that gun to S&W... you would never see it again. S&W simply cannot return a product that could have liability issues.

I'm not a welder, but 7075 can be spot or flash welded according to my materials book (but not arc or gas welded). Don't know how effective it would be.

Pop cans are made from 3000 series aluminum (very soft), the can ends/lids and tabs are made from 5000 series alum. (stronger, yet still formable).

If the barrel ever becomes loose, loctite is a very good solution. For die sets at work, it is standard practice to use cylindrical loctite to glue the ball cage sleeves in the die shoes. These die shoes are in presses running several hundred strokes per minute, in presses generating 100+ tons.