Model 27-2 Question

spelasr · #1 01-10-2015, 03:22 PM

I was at my local Gun Show which rolls through town 3 times a year (At Least) and,

I happened to purchase my first Model 27. It is a 1978, 27-2 Nickel with a 5" Barrel, SN is N494974. In my excitement I may have overlooked a few important things as I discovered when I got it home. You know they are never really clean when you buy them so first thing I do when I get it home is start cleaning.

Everything is fine and functioning. The one exception that I found is, the barrel has no Roll Markings. That's right, no Smith & Wesson, on the left and no .357 Magnum on the right. The barrel appears to be proper and everything lines up to included the top strap checkering.

I know that sometimes S&W has made errors like forgetting a dash in the number or some other weird stuff but forgetting the roll Marks or is it possibly an aftermarket barrel. I may have been Duped, lol.

Pictures to follow once it is cleaned and presentable.

Thanks in advance.

spelasr · #2 01-10-2015, 04:05 PM

Pics in the hopes that one of the S&W folks here that have much more knowledge than I can tell me something.

Nframe_is_no1 · #3 01-10-2015, 04:44 PM

I have heard on this forum of guns that were mismarked with the wrong model number. I've even seen a couple that missed being marked with a model number. I've also heard of the model 25-2s that were incorrectly marked model of 1950 instead of 1955, but this is a new one for me. I hope it doesn't turn out out to be a refinish. Hopefully someone more knowledgable will come along.

usm1rifle · #4 01-10-2015, 05:05 PM

That IS an odd one, the experts should be along to give you an opinion.

msinc · #5 01-10-2015, 05:15 PM

If somebody made that barrel....they sure did a heck of a good job!!! Also very rare to see a 27 with a red ramp front sight but that don't mean it aint right either. Maybe have it lettered??? I have a pretty good collection of guns and usually when you see something that is not the way it should be "by some book" that says otherwise...it might be some employees gun. There is always a chance it could be a switchero on the barrel and they polished off the lettering so it wasn't readily apparent, but I don't know what other gun had that type checkering on the rib. If it was off another 27 why polish of the engraving???
I have in my collection a Winchester Model 12 20 ga. with a straight stock, english walnut, milled solid rib and the matching english walnut "Tournament" grade forend. The year it was made Winchester had long dropped the Tournament grade Model 12 and they produced very few guns with english walnut...but here it is. The rest of the story, it belonged to a former employee that had it made in the custom shop. The big question, is it worth any more??? No not really, provinence or not.

spelasr · #6 01-10-2015, 05:31 PM

Great Story msinc. I have seen many different things with S&W like forgetting the dash is a 29-? but never a barrel with no roll marks. It is interesting for sure. I hope some of the experts here have some information.

Florida Guy · #7 01-10-2015, 05:36 PM

Hard to tell from your pics, but the red insert looks incorrect.

bananaman · #8 01-10-2015, 05:41 PM

Is this gun meant to be a shooter? Granted it might not be correct, but if it shoots well, would be no big deal to me. I have no idea what you paid but it sure LOOKS like a BEAUTY! Let us know what you find out! Bob

old bear · #9 01-10-2015, 05:48 PM

Ya, the roll marks are sure missing, and the red insert does appear to be somewhat undersized. Yet the barrel appears to be well aligned with the frame, and to my untrained eye I don't see any signs of a refinish. I think that one may well have been assembled and inspected on a Monday after a LONG weekend. Do remember that the M-27-2's were the only .357 Magnum revolver that was offered with a 5" barrel, during the time your was produced.

I don't know what you paid, but that is a good looking example of a top of the line revolver no matter what.

spelasr · #10 01-10-2015, 06:05 PM

Yes, the Red Ramp insert is not correct and it is the wrong color to include not completely filling the cutout for it. I plan of fixing that myself but my concern is the barrel with no roll marks. I will say that it appears for all other aspects to be completely correct.

Dennis The B · #11 01-10-2015, 06:21 PM

Do the cylinder head, and the base of the grip frame have the letter "N" stamped on them? Can you provide some closeups of the S&W logo and trademarks? It would add to solving this mystery. Thanks.

muddocktor · #12 01-10-2015, 06:40 PM

I happen to own a 5" nickel 27-2 myself and looking at your pics, I see no sign at all of the roll marks being polished off of the barrel. Looking at the roll marks on my barrel, you should be able to measure a difference in the barrel width if they did polish off the roll marks. I will list some barrel widths from my 27-2 for you and if yours is off by more than a few thousandths of an inch I would say that they were polished off. If they are close to mine, then you happened to get a barrel that wasn't rollmarked. The barrel contour and the checkering on the rib look to be S&W to me. BTW, mine is a 1973 built 27-2 with an N168xxx serial number.

The measurements are as follows, from left to right side.

Width at muzzle - .606 inches
1" from muzzle - .628 inches
2" from muzzle - .653 inches
3" from muzzle - .659 inches
at barrel/frame junction - .787 inches

EDIT: I measured this with my dial calipers.

mudd

spelasr · #13 01-10-2015, 06:41 PM

Here are some pictures of the markings requested to aid in the mystery. I have also been informed that competition shooters would often have the barrels changed for better accuracy, Hmmmm. Interesting indeed. I truly appreciate all the help.

spelasr · #14 01-10-2015, 06:46 PM

Muddocktor,
Thank you for all the excellent information. I do not happen to have dial calipers, :-( but, I will get them measured for sure. I know someone who has one. Great information but, you are correct. I have seen re-finished revolvers and everything about this one looks correct except the missing Roll Marks and the Red Ramp Insert. If someone did change the barrel, it was one heck of a job.

muddocktor · #15 01-10-2015, 06:50 PM

Yeah, that's for sure. And yes, the red ramp isn't correct, but you know that. It looks like the previous owner did as I also did and brought it into a gun shop and had them add it to the original front sight. I also did this back in the early 80's to mine as it helped me keep a better sight picture. But I think the gunsmith that did mine did it more like a true S&W red ramp, but used the same type plastic filler. Mine is the same color as yours, but the gunsmith cut mine a little deeper than the one on your front sight.

spelasr · #16 01-10-2015, 06:50 PM

As requested pictures of the Roll Marks that do exist

spelasr · #17 01-10-2015, 06:56 PM

Ive already ordered the Casting Resin to fix the front insert myself with red, and yellow pigment to try and match the S&W color. The reason it does not look deep enough, it's not filled in all the way, I think. I like the red insert myself, especially as I get older. That is not really a problem to me. I am more interested in figuring out the mystery of the missing Roll Marks and upon closer inspection, they have surely not been sanded off. Too much material would have to be removed for that and the barrel would be much thinner.

spelasr · #18 01-10-2015, 06:59 PM

Yeah, Iggy. I can live with it for myself and for the $725.00 investment it's fine but, the Mystery is just driving me nuts, lol. You know how it is when you overlooked the smallest thing and then discover that something just isn't right, lol.

ibewbull · #19 01-10-2015, 07:00 PM

Unusual 29-2 ?

Best I can find at this time is one side marked.

My only odd ball has German Proofs and re import ones to USA.

The 1 st pic is with numbered and modified grips.
2nd pic with J scott knock off ivory.
Then I found some Grasshorn stags.
Simply Rugged Cumberland IWB Holster the last two pics.
Carries as easily as my 1911
I have not carried it much. Just about the land we have.
Maybe on cycle trips later.

muddocktor · #20 01-10-2015, 07:04 PM

I think it looks damn good without the roll marks on the barrel myself. And the nickel is in great shape too. I love the way the 5" 27s handle too; they feel "just right" to me. And you can look forward to a lifetime of fun with that pistol too. I'm owning mine going on 41 years now and it still shoots good. But I do think I will send it in to S&W to give it a tuneup as I figure I have somewhere between 20k-30k rounds through it. I have a little endshake (not too bad though) and my forcing cone is showing a little erosion and I would like for S&W to bring it back as close to new specs as possible.

EDIT: BTW, heare are couple of pics of my old 27-2 for you:

pharmer · #21 01-10-2015, 07:17 PM

I am not an expert but I do have an opinion about everything. Looks like previous owner bulged the barrel. Brought it to a local shop (no factory refinish stampings) where gunsmith just happened to have a blue 5" barrel. Since the barrel needed stripping and then plating to nickel over, some serious polishing ensued and reinstallation of original insert yielding shrinkage observed. Spend $50 for the letter and you'll find out how it left the factory. Joe

Alk8944 · #22 01-10-2015, 07:33 PM

A couple of questions and observations. Is the front sight Nickeled or blued? It appears to be Nickel in the photos. If so this is an indication of a re-finish.

The front sight has definitely been re-finished regardless. The dovetail for the insert should have sharp, distinct edges. Yours has definitely been buffed and has rounded edges. This explains the insert appearing as it does. The sides should be somewhat dull and look like they were finished on a belt sander.

Looking at the sideplate the logo seems to have been polished over. S&Ws of most periods have slightly raised edges around the roll-marked logo. When a gun is re-finished these are polished flat. Another indication of a re-finish on your gun.

FWIW I also have a 5" Nickel 27-2 with a SN a bit higher than yours, N331xxx. The barrel dimensions on mine are within .001-.002" of what you measured. I have to agree that if the barrel had been polished sufficient to remove the the barrel marks it would be smaller than this! So it probably was skipped originally. The roll-marks are applied before finishing, and cannot be applied after plating especially. S&W probably would not see this as a sufficient reason to scrap a barrel that was otherwise acceptable and simply use it.

muddocktor · #23 01-10-2015, 07:44 PM

Alk8944, those are the measurements off of my 27-2 for him to compare his to. He still needs to check those numbers against his barrel.

Also, talking about the logo on the sideplate got me looking at his pics closer. It looks to me like the edges of the top rib are more rounded than mine and the bottom part of the frame in front of the trigger too.

spelasr · #24 01-10-2015, 07:45 PM

Alk8944, I agree with everything you have stated. At closer look the front sight itself has been polished on the sides but, not at the top of the barrel where the sight is attached to it or part of it. If it has been refinished it is one heck of a fine job. It the correct lighting I can see now, a very slight difference in the barrel and the frame as far as the finish goes. I will say that I am leaning toward there having been a total refinish of the gun.

bengal fan · #25 01-10-2015, 07:50 PM

Is there a serial number in the shroud area? There should be a serial# there.
The gun is Beauitful!

spelasr · #26 01-10-2015, 08:32 PM

bengal fan, There is no SN in the Shroud for the extractor but, I did notice an "N" on the back of the barrel where it meets the frame, right there where the the Krane closes and meets the back of the barrel.

spelasr · #27 01-10-2015, 08:59 PM

After Further inspection with a magnifying glass, it appears to be a refinish with a new barrel. There is ever so slight fracturing of the nickel around the Pin for the barrel. Cant be seen or very hard to see with the naked eye. I don't think the barrel had the roll marks sanded off but left the factory that way sold to the retail market where a gunsmith did the work. A fine gunsmith for sure but not done by S&W. Thank you all for the help in leading me in the right direction. Seems I have a lot to learn about purchasing Unblemished S&W Revolvers.

Doc44 · #28 01-10-2015, 09:29 PM

The N on the rear surface of the ejector rod shroud is how S&W marked their barrels when finished in nickel after the 4-screw frame was introduced in 1957. The N suggests the nickel was applied by S&W and is original. The red ramp is probably a gunsmith or owner addition. I think we have a situation where the barrel missed the roll markings steps. Makes for a great discussion piece. The front sight and ramp being nickel is correct as this was implemented around 1967, and there should be no serial number in the shroud (this was stopped around 1957).

Bill

Abbynormal · #29 01-10-2015, 09:58 PM

The hammer and trigger also appear to be flash chromed not case hardened.

I also have never seen or heard of a barrel with no roll marks whatsoever.

Could it be a S&W employee "Lunchbox gun"?

spelasr · #30 01-10-2015, 10:25 PM

Abbynormal, Thanks but I did check the hammer and trigger, They are case hardened just a little wore off on the exposed parts but inside after removing the side-plate for inspection and cleaning, they are indeed case hardened. Thanks and all input is appreciated.

spelasr · #31 01-10-2015, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muddocktor

I think it looks damn good without the roll marks on the barrel myself. And the nickel is in great shape too. I love the way the 5" 27s handle too; they feel "just right" to me. And you can look forward to a lifetime of fun with that pistol too. I'm owning mine going on 41 years now and it still shoots good. But I do think I will send it in to S&W to give it a tuneup as I figure I have somewhere between 20k-30k rounds through it. I have a little endshake (not too bad though) and my forcing cone is showing a little erosion and I would like for S&W to bring it back as close to new specs as possible.

EDIT: BTW, heare are couple of pics of my old 27-2 for you:

Thats a fine looking M27 Doc.

Nightowl · #32 01-10-2015, 10:48 PM

Ok. Its time to stop with all this speculation and just use the gun for the intended purpose=lots of shooting pleasure! It is a very nice looking 27, boy do I love 27s.

Tom_R · #33 01-11-2015, 12:32 AM

First off, this is a beautiful gun. Regardless of what ends up being the history or truth, having an N-Frame with a 5" barrel for $725, is money very well spent. You could not go wrong at that price, and this gun, if well cared for, will last a lifetime.

Regarding the gun and the barrel:
- this appears to be an original factory Nickel gun
- the ejection star is blued ( which is correct)
- the trigger appears to be case hardened (also correct)
- the Cylinder is marked with an "N" indicating Nickel Finish

Regarding the Barrel
- this is definitely a Model 27 Barrel due to the top strap Checkering
- to me, it looks like a 5" barrel, not a cut down 6"

Ok now my theory, the barrel is either not original to the gun, or was re-nickeled.

As someone had indicated, maybe a replacement barrel in Blue was used, and then it was really polished and polished the roll marks off?

I'd recommend a letter from Roy Jinks to see what length it was originally.

Either way, that's some nice hardware.

My LGS had a 5" with box and papers and Tools for $950.

I stopped in yesterday and someone snagged it. They did well.

Jamesatrange · #34 01-11-2015, 02:13 AM

Live and learn and this lessen wasn't too painful. You ended up with more knowledge for future shopping and a very pretty model 27. Enjoy!

muddocktor · #35 01-11-2015, 10:31 AM

There was nothing painful about this purchase at all, IMO. Even if it's a refinished barrel, $725 for a 27-2 in this shape is a fair deal and will be a delight to shoot for years and years to come. The "N" on the cylinder face and at the base of the left side of the grip strap tells you that this pistol did come from the factory with a nickel finish originally. Mine has those markings in the same places and I bought mine new in April or May of 1974 straight from the gun shop it was shipped to in Natchitoches LA while I was in college.

And in my recent experience (last 6 months or so), finding earlier 27's at this price point and this shape is hard to do. With the rarer barrel lengths of 3 1/2", 4" and 5" especially hard to find a deal as low as this.

g8rb8 · #36 01-11-2015, 11:41 AM

Regardless of all observations and speculation that is a beautiful piece and if you get enjoyment out of shooting it then any criticism is mute.

There are truths to be learned from this experience.
1. Guys are extremely distracted by bright shiny objects (fast cars and ladies too). Beware of your inability to resist your distractions.
2. Hurry up and slow down.

John

spelasr · #37 01-11-2015, 12:11 PM

LOL, how very true g8rb8. very true indeed. you would think I would have learned that in my 53 years on this planet but no, not me, I am still distracted by all of the above.

A10 · #38 01-11-2015, 01:03 PM

Thats a GREAT looking revolver! I'm in the "factory original screw up" camp. Everything, with the possible exception of the ramp, looks absolutely right. I would have bought that one for certain!

spelasr · #39 01-14-2015, 11:07 AM

Update on this New to Me 27-2
I sent an email to S&W which prompted a reply from the S&W Level 1 support. The answers were minimal but they did at least verify the SN and year of production as 1978. They suggested I get in touch with Mr Jinks for more information that I need.

I was very fortunate to have actually spoken with Mr Jinks last night on the phone. Yes, I was surprised to actually reach him personally. His words of wisdom were that it may very well be a late 1977 production rather than a 1978 based on my SN which he did ask for. He stated that there will be no way to prove if it left the factory with or without the missing Roll Marks on the barrel. It may have been in one of the last batches made where the 5" barrels were used before changing to the 4" as they did sometime in 1978. Mr Jinks did suggest the letter to verify everything.

I have everything mailed in a certified letter with 12 pictures enclosed as he stated that the more information, the better. Now I just have to relax, and be patient in waiting the 16 to 18 weeks for the letter to come.

Thank you all for your help, advice, and input. This is truly a great place to come for information for any S&W enthusiast.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

spelasr · #40 06-01-2015, 04:43 PM

Alright Experts, and especially those of you that surely know much more than I. What do you make of this strange letter about my 27-2. If finally came in the mail today and I am baffled to say the least.

EdF702 · #41 06-01-2015, 05:02 PM

Well... Ain't that a bummer! I don't know if that adds or detracts from its value, but it sure is a terrific discussion piece!

spelasr · #42 06-01-2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdF702

Well... Ain't that a bummer! I don't know if that adds or detracts from its value, but it sure is a terrific discussion piece!

LOL, was not really looking for an increased value due to an anomaly but rather trying to get it's authenticity validated. Looks like I will never really know so, I am going to assume it is, lol.

boykinlp · #43 06-01-2015, 06:33 PM

I have heard of this happening before. Some have said that the gun in question may have been a "lunchbox" gun, which I take to mean might have been taken out of the factory, off of the books, in a lunchbox. Makes sense to me.

crsides · #44 06-01-2015, 11:14 PM

Well, that clears everything up.

Charlie

acl864 · #45 06-02-2015, 09:14 PM

I think the letter actually does explain the only way the revolver could leave the factory without roll marks. Like someone else suggested it could be a "lunchbox" gun or as suggested in the Jink's letter "delivered to one of the company executives". I think someone at S&W had the revolver made for them (or helped make it). Whoever had it made without roll marks was on to something. It looks really good like that. To me the lack of roll marks would add to the desirability. Maybe not as a "collector" gun because technically it's not factory correct. But in my humble opinion, you got a heck of deal on what is "probably" a one of a kind M27-2 in excellent condition in a very desirable barrel length. Well done!