I have a model 36 no change / no dash . And I want to know if it will Handel .38+P ammo ?? I'm sure S&W would say no or maybe just not a steady diet , but wondering about all you guys real life experances in this department ?? The gun is in exelant condition , and I want to use as a CCW , thanks

Without a doubt . . .

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

If it were my gun I would not hesitate to shoot +P in it.

__________________
BCCI Life Member #2068

I wouldn't hesitate if it were mine.

Federal Premium 129gr Hydrashock +P. Will expand when fired from 3" and shorter barrels (lower muzzle velocity).

Get some better grips for control. Many after market suppliers. But none as elegant as those from Esmeralda.

S&W says no. The oft quoted ok for model marked S&Ws actually
only refers to K or larger frame guns, not J frames. Will +P blow up
your 36? No but if it were mine I might carry with +P but I would
stick to standard pressure for all other use. You want that nice old 36
to last a long time.

If the question is "can I fire 5 +Ps to save my butt if I get into a bad situation?"

The answer is absolutely YES. 38 Special +P will not cause catastrophic failure of a S&W revolver that is in good condition and chambered for that cartridge.

If the question is "can I shoot +Ps whenever I feel like it, just because I have them?"

I would caution against this. You have a good revolver from an era that is long gone. If you want to shoot lots of +Ps then you should invest in a J-frame that takes advantage of the metallurgical and engineering advances that have come about in the last several decades and save the wear and tear on the older model 36.

In the life cycle of a shooter/revolver relationship, the firearm is the cheap part. You will spend many times the purchase price of the revolver on ammunition during a lifetime of ownership

I would only shoot the non +P normally , and load it with +P for CCW ( and hope to never need to shoot those ) so that said ! Would a lighter grain bullet sat 110 horniday be easer on the gun than a heavier load like a 158 grain ? Thanks


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I AGREE WITH colt saa. SHOOT 5 +Ps AND A RELOAD TO SAVE YOUR LIFE, AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE POSSIBLE DAMAGE TO YOUR REVOLVER. IT WILL NOT BLOW UP. YOU MAY WISH TO TAKE A PEEK AT BUFFALO BORE'S STANDARD VELOCITY .38 SPL LOAD, WHICH IS PRETTY STOUT. IT IS ALLEGEDLY SAFE FOR OLDER GUNS………...

__________________
'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

You'll be jut fine shooting +p out of it. As Iggy alluded to your wrist and hand will quit before the gun does.

Here's a article written by a forum member on +p ammo.
Shooting with Hobie

I don't shoot +p all the time out of my .38's but shoot 18-24 rounds every three months (changing out carry ammo.) but shoot standard to "warmer" ammo the rest of the time.

Today's +P loadings are not as stout as they used to be. 135 grain Gold Dots made for short barrels is as good as it gets in a steel framed CCW snubby. Now if it was an alloy framed revolver I'd say look hard and see if you could find some standard pressure 125 grain Nyclads.

__________________
LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Tiger,
I recommend staying away from the lighter loads, especially the 110 grainers. My personal minimum preference are the 135 grain Speer Gold Dots made for short barreled guns. The lighter loads are loaded with powder and pressures that tend to cause flame cutting of the top strap where the gas escapes between the front of the cylinder and the forcing cone of the barrel. It's really hard to beat the 158 grain SWCHP rounds known as the FBI load for these kinds of guns. That weight bullet does not require as much velocity to have and maintain it's momentum after it strikes. It will tend to penetrate more deeply and it will maintain it's full weight, and it will cut a full caliber sized hole. Lack of sufficient penetration will always result in less than desirable results. There are no guarantees of course. But the FBI type loads will give you as good a chance as any, and they have a lengthy track record of very good performance. I've used and carried them since they first became available. That's FWIW!

__________________
So long ... Ken

There are a couple issues that muddy the water a bit…

1. Average pressure versus proof loads

The SAAMI Pressure specification for maximum average chamber pressure for the .38 Special is 17,000 psi.

The maximum average chamber specification for the .38 Special +P load is 20,000 psi.

That's 3000 psi and 17.6% higher.

When you consider that SAAMI requires proof testing with a round between 33% and 44% higher than the maximum average chamber pressure, it's obvious that a .38 +P load won't "blow up" your .38 Special revolver.

2. The forcing cone is just as much of a concern as the cylinder.

What a revolver can take in small doses is a lot higher than what a revolver can take on a regular basis.

If you compare the forcing cone on an early tapered barrel K frame Model 10, a revolver rated for .38 Special only, with the forcing cone on a K frame Model 19, a .357 Magnum revolver intended for infrequent duty use with .357 Magnum ammunition, with .38 Special used for practice, you won't see that much difference in dimensions. In fact, the K frame Model 19 has a relief cut on the bottom side of the forcing cone that leaves it significantly thinner there.

What is not visible is the stronger metallurgy in the K frame Model 19 that allows the forcing cone to absorb the impact of an unknown number of .357 Magnum rounds entering the bore. Some shooters report shooting .357 magnum rounds all the time in their model 19. Elmer Kieth didn't recommend it, and suggested "hundreds of rounds of .38 for every .357 Magnum round" was a good ratio to stick with.

If you compare the thin section of the forcing cone in the K frame Model 19 to the forcing cone in the J-frame Model 36, you'll find the J-frame forcing cone about the same thickness all the way around as the Model 19 has in the thin spot.

In both cases, if you start to get throat erosion in a Model 19 or a Model 36, the "V" shaped cut eating it's way into the side of the forcing cone creates stress risers that are far more serious in the thinner forcing cone and will quickly lead to cracking.

Throat erosion combined with the stress of .357 Magnum loads have killed a lot of Model 19s. I suspect the reason that .38 +P loads have not killed a lot of Model 36s is because the 20,000 psi .38 +P load is a lot less than the 35,000 psi .357 Magnum load, and fewer people put a significant number of stout .38 +P loads through their Model 36s.

3. Not all ammo is created equal, when it comes to pressure.

SAAMI spec is a maximum, many loads run well under that, whether that is the standard pressure specification or the +P specification.

It's much more pronounced in 44 magnum ammo, where mid range loads well under SAAMI spec are common. However, I've noted some very anemic .38 Special loads floating around that are running well under the SAAMI spec for .38 Special.

It started to be a more or less common practice as soon as manufacturers started realizing there are a lot of really old .38 Specials out there, many of them in questionable condition, and their lawyers started worrying about liability.

Just because the SAAM spec is 17,000 psi does not mean a standard pressure load actually generates pressure anywhere near that.

Similarly, the +P specification is also a maximum, and there is no requirement that ammo sold as "+P" actually be higher than 17,000 psi, it just has to be under 20,000 psi.

In that case, it's not unreasonable to assume that if a company's standard pressure load is under the SAAMI spec, their "+P" ammo may also not be much (hf any) over 17,000 psi - but the problem is you have no way to know for sure. Assuming that is the case can cause problems if you assume incorrectly.

However, you also need to consider that assuming all +P ammo is indeed loaded to 20,000 psi can also cause problems. Listening to someone tell you they've put so many thousand rounds of "+P" ammo through their model 36 without problems, is seriously misleading, if that "+P" ammo was loaded to only 17,100 psi, rather than 20,000 psi.

-----

In that regard, I have no doubt that my old 1949 M&P .38 Special could handle +P loads on a limited basis. There's a lot of metal there, and even if the metallurgy is not as refined as it is in the Model 19, it would take a long time to erode it and/or crack it. If I used it as a duty gun, I'd practice with standard pressure .38 loads, and then carry +P loads in it for duty use. I might even expend my 12-18 rounds of old carry ammo through it every few months.

I'd be tempted to carry .38 +p loads in a pre-dash 9 Model 36 (built on the J frame, not the J magnum frame), but I probably would not expend any rounds through it in practice.

What I would not do is except the pre-dash 9, standard J frame revolver to stand up to a steady diet, or even semi regular diet of +P loads. You're asking for a cracked forcing cone just like you are when you run a Model 19 on a steady diet of .357 magnum loads.

My three small thirty-eights are: 442 from the early '90s; Model 38 from the early '60s & a Colt Cobra from '68. All of them get a cylinder full of the +P FBI load (my EDC choice) annually and still function just fine.

The 442 was purchased a few years ago from a Forum member here. The M38 was purchased used in the early '70s as a back-up to my duty weapon, and the Cobra was my first off-duty gun purchased new in 1968.

All three revolvers go to the range several times a year and mostly shoot standard pressure FMJ 130 grain ammo. A steady diet of +P will stretch the frame of your gun, eventually. No one knows how long it will take to make that happen, but discretion is the watch word here.

__________________
Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

If memory serves...+P Ammunition was being sold for some time before guns carried the marking +P.

I have read in several places that today's +p load is equal to or less than the pressure of a standard .38 special from back in the mid-century or so. I don't know if this is true or not, but I'm curious because I have recently acquired a beautiful nickel, 2" square but Model 36 no dash and I want to know what to do with the +p's. I'm confident enough in the gun to use them as my carry rounds, and I want to shoot a few at the range just to see how they shoot so I'll know if I ever need them, but otherwise I wouldn't shoot too many through it, in fact I don't plan to shoot it much period because I want to keep it in as good of shape as possible, but I do use it as my carry gun because it's bad *****! BB57, you had quite a bit of useful, insightful information that I was glad to come across. When you say a pre dash 9, do you mean (which I think you do) one before the - 9 or was that an autocorrect incident? Forgive my ignorance, I just wanted to clarify. You said your 1949 would have no problem with +p's, but I didn't catch that it was an M&P,, so that would be a K frame which makes more sense. Just looking for a little clarification if you could please! Thanks in advance.

Be careful of the shootee's lawyer. If you use +P in an older .38 that doesn't call for it, it may be a negative for you.
I have a model 36 J frame from the '70s and use .38 spec critical duty ammo.

My practice with all of my .38s is to practice with my 158 grain SWC handloads which, according to the data, are standard pressure and save the +Ps for carry, shooting the carry rounds yearly. My old .38s get the FBI load for carry and my 442 gets Speer GD or Winchester Ranger Bonded 130 grain loads. The old girls shoot low with the lighter bullets, being regulated for 158 grain loads.
My load is the maximum standard .38 charge of BE-86 listed by Alliant and produces 882 fps in my 4" .38 GP-100 and 772 fps in my R prefix M60.
Factory 158 +P LHP loads from Winchester and Remington both averaged 890 fps in the 4" gun and about 768 fps from the snub.

TWO last question , I called Smith and Wesson and they claim is made in 1942 and after watching YouTube videos I see that they didn't stamp the model number until the 1950s inside the crane area it is stamped with a model 36 inside the current area serial number is 3814XX. Any ideas when this one was made ?? Also it does have the correct numbered SB DIAMOND GRIPS , it's at least 98% ideas on current value $$ ,,Thanks

This is really resurrecting an old thread

Model numbers came into existence in 1957. Most everything had been converted by 1958

If the factory told you the revolver was made in 1942, why do you doubt them?

You may be interpreting the wrong number as the serial number. However number 381,xxx would have been manufactured in the 1963-1964 time frame. A factory Historical letter would provide you with the actual ship date and destination

The official location for Smith and Wesson revolver serial numbers in on the butt of the frame

With revolvers whose factory supplied grips cover the butt, the serial number is always in a second location that would not require removing the grips to check. Over 90% of the time it is located just above the Model number however there are other locations that have been used as well

Just remember it is ALWAYS on the butt

__________________
"Acta non verba"

Maybe because those who answer the phone at S&W nowdays are wrong a lot of the time. Their answers just cannot be trusted. This has been the case ever since the company eliminated Roy's position as Historian.

A Model 36 carrying serial number 3814XX probably left the factory in late 1964, possibly even early 1965. It would still have had diamond stocks and a flat latch (thumbpiece).

It cannot possibly date from 1942. For one thing the Chiefs Special did not exist until 1950, let alone the Model 36 which did not appear on dealer shelves until 1958.

If you wrote "by the end of 1958" you would be mostly correct. The fact is, we have never actually located a model marked revolver that left the factory in 1957. The earliest one I know of is a Model 29 that shipped in early January, 1958. The decision to use model numbers was made in June, 1957. Implementation was not so fast, depending on the model, and shipments gradually increased throughout 1958. I own several non-model marked guns that shipped in 1958.

On a Chiefs Special sure. On most models, yes. But not ALWAYS. The Regulation Police and the .22/32 HFT, for examples, never had the serial number on the butt. It was on the front strap of the grip frame because of the unique stocks issued on those models.

I think we need to be very careful how we answer questions here on the Forum. It can be very easy to unintentionally mislead people.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Jack,
I did not mean to put a burr under your saddle as we continued this 4 year old thread.

My Bad I know we should NEVER use absolutes when discussing Smith & Wesson

However, my answer is factually correct in the context of this thread.

My answer is also factually correct for this sub-Forum "S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980"

You are right that my answer is not correct for every Smith & Wesson manufactured over the previous 167 years.

But in this case, we are not discussing Smith & Wessons from the 1850s, we are not discussing the Regulation Police or even the .22/32 HFT. We are discussing modern Smith & Wesson revolvers, according to the heading we are discussing the Model 36

I highly doubt that any intelligent person reading this thread could have been misled by my response

__________________
"Acta non verba"

"This is really resurrecting an old thread".

Indeed. Over 4 1/2 years from start to last reply from the OP appears to be a new indoor record.

Not to stray too far off topic, but the goal of having an effective carry gun should be fast, accurate, multiple hits of adequate power to stop the threat. If you find any expanding bullet .38 Special round that runs well in your model 36 the + P issue is really a moot point. Hope you find (found) the ammo you want.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

colt_saa

No burr under my saddle and I wasn't meaning to pick a fight.

I probably would not even have replied in this thread if it weren't for the 1942 stuff. Good grief! Why those young people at S&W can't just learn to say "I don't know" is beyond me.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I have a problem with firing ammo in a weapon that the weapon was not designed to shoot, regardless of who is doing it without “any problems”.

__________________
Pine_Worker
Ex-LEO, NRA Life