I got an old S&W .38 from my Dad and need some help to identify if it is a .38 or .38 Special.
Please see Pic
On 6" barrel "38 S&W CTG"
On butt "SN 730747"

Attached Images

S&W .38.jpg (52.8 KB, 408 views)

It is chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge. Interesting grips on it. And welcome to the forum.

Kevin

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The marking says it is a .38 S&W, which is NOT the same as .38 Special. There were several .38s from that era, and they can get a bit confusing as to what can be used in what. The safest and easiest is to use what is marked on the barrel to select your ammunition, in this case 38 S&W.
Welcome!

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If it is chambered for .38 S&W caliber (which is what it appears to be), a .38 Special cartridge will only go part way into the cylinder charging holes. You won't be able to close the cylinder with the .38 Special cartridges sticking out.

My Dad has a break open revolver for .38 S&W. I got some ammo for him and some for me to test it out. I'm wondering if he will want to get rid of it?

This was a long time ago. Seems it was a Colt. Did Colt make break open .38 S&Ws?

Welcome aboard.

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Thanks for the feedback. I will use .38 ammo. I enjoy the forum, thanks for the welcome.

I can't read the barrel marking in this poor photo, but if the word, Special doesn't appear, just .38 S&W , it is a British service revolver, commonly called the .38-200 because the bullet weight adopted in 1927 was a lead 200 grain one with a blunt point. By WWII, the weight had dropped to 178 grains and it was metal jacketed, to comply with Hague Accords rules for bullets in civilized warfare.

These guns date from April, 1940- April, 1942, after which only dull gray finishes and smooth walnut stocks were supplied to Commonwealth forces. Barrel lengths were then standardized at five inches. Prior to 1942, they were simply commercial grade Military & Police models in barrel lengths of four, five, or six inches. This one is a six-incher. My brother had one just like it. Most supposedly had five inch barrels, to comply with Enfield and Webley .38's. The holsters were made for five-inch barrels, and these six-inchers were hard to holster and there seem not to have been longer holsters for them. I saw a photo of a group of RAF pilots in N. Africa with these six-inch models and the butts stuck 'WAY out of the Pattern 37 webbing holsters. I'm amazed that they could close the flaps.

We had a thread here awhile back about one of these six-inch ones that was issued to a South African pilot serving in the RAF. He was SAAF, but "seconded" to the RAF, as they needed additional pilots. He wore that gun during the North African campaigns and then to Burma, flying Hurricanes, and later, Spitfires. He kept the gun after the war, but it's now somehow in the hands of a UK collector. I suspect that it's had to be deactivated to comply with the awful UK gun law of 1997. The pilot died not long ago, at the age of 97. We heard from a relative, I think a great granddaughter. The family still lives in South Africa, and I don't know how the gun reached the UK after so many years. The pilot said that all he ever shot with it apart from targets was a rat. But it was interesting to see pics of him wearing the gun in service and a fellow pilot with one and their aircraft.

I think your grips are plastic ones resembling Kearsarge custom grips. They are not original. The original grips were checkered wood, with a silver S&W medallion at the top of each panel.

Yours is what's known as a "pre-Victory" .38/200 British Service Revolver. The serial number would date its shipment at about early 1941. And the grips are indeed not original. Unfortunately. .38 S&W ammunition is usually difficult to find, and quite expensive.

Welcome to the forum.

Those are W. Murad Pointer stocks. I bought mine from a man who removed them from a 2nd model .44 special. Naturally he wanted original S&W stocks. The left panel could either have a thumb rest or like mine have the two ½” holes for installing the thumb rest plugged. Handejector wrote Murad Pointers were available during the 1930s. That puts them ahead of their time in that S&W did not make large stocks with material in the area occupied by a grip adapter until about 1953. My Pointers are coke bottle shaped so apparently that wasn’t S&W’s idea either. They might be Bakelite like a lot of other pre-WW II hard plastic stocks but I don’t know how to tell.

No doubt the collectors here will advise seeking out factory original stocks but I’d leave the vintage after market stocks on. For one thing it looks like your .38 has been reblued so it is never going to be completely original. More importantly, the Murads are part of its history.

My very first handgun was a revolver very similar to this one. Mine was also marked .38 S & W Ctg. Mine very definitely chambered .38 Specials. I don't know if the cylinder had been rechambered or if the cylinder had been replaced. The bottom line is I shot .38 specials in it the entire time I owned it.

If the cylinder had been rechambered, the brass would look badly bulged after firing. Since you shot it and do not mention this, it sounds like the original cylinder was replaced with a proper .38 Special cylinder.

Edited to add:
There is always the slim chance that your revolver left the factory as a .38 S&W Special and somewhere along the line somebody replaced the barrel with one from a .38 S&W donor gun.

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I'm going to answer this question before it is asked. If the gun is chambered in .38 SPL, it is NOT ok to shoot +P ammo in it.

Hal44

Welcome to the forum.

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Let's be sure I get this straight. Ruger says my Redhawk .357 is also chambered for .38 special so it is NOT ok to shoot +P ammo in it?

My ole beer soaked memory told me that .38 S&W's were tapered but my google search the other night turned up a drawing that showed me to be wrong so I thought I was mistaken. One of your explanations is no doubt accurate because I did not have bulged cases.

.38 Special+P is fine in a modern .357. I shoot .38 Special +P in my 1983 Ruger Security Six .357 without issue, other than the extra cleaning required by the shorter casing.

The big discussion here is ".38 S&W" vs ".38 Special", which are in no way the same or interchangeable.

hoc9wc,

You took me too seriously. However, you did get to notice I incorrectly typed "Super" so thanks.

OK so now I'm really glad I didn't get any ammo yet. I inherited my S&W from my father and it was a police issued revolver. On the barrel it says " 38 S&W Special CTG. " I have the original box and paperwork, says it's a .38 Military & Police Stainless Revolver Model No. 64. So what kind of cartridges should I use so as not to mess it up or get any of the bulging? I'm learning from reading but what is bulging?

Edit to add ~~ It was issued to my Father Nov 1963 and it has never been altered.

Edit again~~~ I just noticed on the inside of the box lid it is date stamped April 1, 1980. Written in red pencil on the top of the box is 11/1963 and my Father's initials... so I'm confused.

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Love shoes, cats, & my S&W 38

MsRedShoes
Did your Father retire in 1980? Perhaps thats when the 1980 stamp was added.
Just guessing.
Jim

No, he retired in 1986. The old label with serial# on the box matches the serial # on the butt of the gun. He only talked about the funny things the guys at work did, so maybe some kind of April Fools joke? Lol, you should see the video of his retirement, Dallas cops are crazy funny!

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Love shoes, cats, & my S&W 38

That's a nice revolver from your Father.
The markings on the bbl. indicate it's chambered for the .38 Special, on a box of ammo it might be marked .38 Special, it could be marked .38 S&W special & both are the same load.
Being issued in 1963 I'd use the +P ammo very sparingly & shoot mostly standard loads not marked +P. The .38 Military & Police also known as (M&P) is what is commonly called a pre model #, they later became the model 10. This would be a very special gun to me since it was issued to your Father. They are very good, well made, accurate, handgun, I would keep it in the family & use it & enjoy it.
Good shooting!

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MsRedShoes,

Model 64s did not exist in 1963. They were not introduced until 1970. They are built on a K frame. S&W instructs that all K frames that are new enough to be model number marked are built for continuous use of +P .38s and that's conservative. You may never know why Nov. 1963 was written on the box but I suspect either that was the date your father started his police job or writing the 6 was just a mistake.

You asked "... what is bulging?" Whether they're standard pressure or the higher pressure +P if you stick to .38 special cartridges from large manufacturers the only significant risk of bulging would be bulging the barrel by firing a bullet into a bore obstruction. Dangerous cartridges only very rarely slip past quality controls in the big ammo factories. However, home reloaders who don't pay attention to cartridge assembly some times bulge cylinders by loading too much powder. The most common cause of a bulged barrel occurs after a reloader sticks a bullet in the barrel by not loading any powder in the case. The primer alone usually drives the bullet a short distance into the barrel. If the stuck bullet is not removed before firing the next shot the barrel will be damaged. I have been reloading my own cartridges for over 40 years without any mishaps but in that time I've met a few shooters at ranges who were not careful enough. Consequently I do not shoot other people's reloads in my guns.

You don’t see them all that often and they’re more expensive than standard or +P .38 specials but there are also less powerful cartridges for your revolver. The .38 special’s great grand parent was the .38 short Colt. It was lengthened into the .38 long Colt which in turn was lengthened to create the .38 special. Just like with .22 long rifle rimfire cartridges you can shoot the short and long Colts in your revolver. Since S&W designed and introduced the .38 special they like to claim it as their own by marking their barrels .38 S&W special. That leads to confusion with .38 S&W cartridges which you can not shoot in your model 64 because they have larger case and bullet diameters.

MsRedShoes-

Your mention that you have a Model 64 and that your dad was a Dallas officer explains much. Dallas did indeed issue the Model 64. And they did issue Plus P ammo for duty use. May have qualified with target "wadcutter" loads, which are milder and so-called because the flat point cuts a clean hole in the target.

I think this was the type of revolver used by one Dallas officer who killed six felons using his dept. issued S&W .38 and issued Plus P ammunition, probably the lead SWC HP from Winchester or other manufacturers. All six went down promptly and were dead, but I don't know how many times any suspect was shot.

I talked with a doctor (Vincent Di Maio, MD) who was very influential in Dallas adopting lead hollowpoint Plus P (high velocity) ammunition about 1974. Indeed, I was assigned to write an article about this and why police needed hollowpoint bullets. It was to have run in the, Dallas Morning News, with a counter article by a very vocal "community leader" as an opposing view, to give the public both sides of the issue. But the editor involved read my story and cancelled the project, as I'd countered all of the emotional stuff that the other man wanted to say, and he knew nothing really of ballistics, history of handgun ammunition in war, etc. He was just trying to stir up the rabble. I was pretty bitter. It was obvious that the newspaper didn't care about the facts. They only wanted to generate controversy to sell newspapers. I have never trusted the general media since. And I have a degree in Journalism. From then on, I mostly wrote for specialty publications, where politics wouldn't be a factor in the "reporting."

Dallas may still issue those remaining Model 64's to city guards. I've seen them wearing them in places like the library. My impression of those guards seen was that I wouldn't trust them with a more complicated autoloading pistol. Anything more that I'd love to add would violate the Rules here. Some Dallas officers still carry revolvers, and some may still have these, although many bought .357 Magnums or other more powerful guns.

In other words, yes, your gun will cheerfully accept Plus P ammunition. But avoid any marked as Plus P PLUS, which was made only to police orders and was loaded very hot. Its sole purpose was to get an effective load marked as .38 to satisfy critics in liberal cities, while issuing the ammo only for use in .357 guns! Smith &Wesson reps told me that they saw as much or more wear with this Plus P Plus ammo as from full .357 Magnum loads, and that it was a primary reason why larger L-frame .357 guns were introduced, as Plus P Plus was wearing out K-frame .357's too rapidly and sometimes splitting or cracking barrel throats, as did the very hot 125 grain .357 loads. To my knowledge, Dallas PD never used Plus P Plus ammo, as officers wanting more power just bought .357 guns, which was authorized here.

I suspect that the date written in the lid pertains to something other than this gun, which wasn't even made until 1970 and was in short supply for several years after being introduced. It was being furnished against very heavy police orders, and the public got what was left over.

Your Model 64 is basically of stainless steel construction, a very significant advantage. But after a short while, the triggers and hammers were found to sometimes gall and were replaced by flash-chromed conventional steel parts. I think that was okay. I have had several such guns and none had any rusting issues with the internal parts, given normal care.

I urge you to clean and lightly oil the gun with a product like Rem-Oil or Break-Free CLP. CLP abb. Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative. You can buy it in Dallas at most gun stores, inc. Academy Sports.

If the gun checks out okay and does not have cylinder timing problems or excessive endshake from heavy firing over the years, it is an ideal home defense gun that also has considerable utility as an outdoors gun, for snakes, rabid foxes and skunks, etc. I probably would not deliberately seek any animal larger than a coyote when armed with a 38 Special. But even bears have been killed with them, if the bullet reaches just the right spot. The Dallas (and FBI, Miami, Chicago, etc.) load of a 158 grain lead hollowpoint bullet at a nominal 890 feet per second is not only good on humans, it's the load that I'd probably carry for defense against wildlife of any real size. It usually expands some and penetrates well in flesh.

Does the marking on the frame that you can see when the cylinder is swung out say just M-64 or are there other letters or numbers, like M-64-2, etc.? We can tell you more about these minor engineering changes to the basic Model 64.

You have a fine gun, one of the best basic service revolvers ever made. And it carries memories of your father. Treasure it, and take care of it, and it'll take care of you. It is definitely originally chambered for the normal .38 S&W SPECIAL cartridge, and you'll have no problems with ctg. cases bulging from being fired in oversized chambers, as is often the case with rechambered guns made for the shorter and wider .38 S&W cartridge. Those older British-used guns were sometimes rechambered by dealers who wanted to sell them as .38 Specials, as the ammo was much more widely available and the ignorant average buyer wouldn't know the difference. Unscrupulous dealing isn't limited to car sales.

Thank you to everyone for your replies!

Texas Star.... It says "Mod. 64-3" which is exactly the same on the end of the box label. I'm curious to see what that means. You are a powerhouse of information!

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Love shoes, cats, & my S&W 38

A short tube called the gas ring protrudes from the front of your cylinder. It surrounds the extractor rod under the barrel cylinder gap. Its purpose is to deflect fouling away from the center of the cylinder. Starting in the 1800s S&W installed gas rings in all their revolvers except for about a year and a half of K frame production that ended in 1977. They quit installing gas rings in K frame cylinders to save a couple bucks. The yoke was machined differently in a futile attempt to make up for it. Cylinders had to be removed from the frame to clean out fouling. S&W admitted it was a bad change and went back to installing gas rings in K frame cylinders. For heavy barrel Model 64s restoration of the gas ring in the cylinder was accompanied by increasing their dash number to 3.

You will find a wealth of information here. There are a lot of people here who are way more knowlegable than I am, & most are more than willing to share.
Good shooting.

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