10-6 or 13-1?

BC38 · #1 04-14-2015, 10:24 PM

Found something interesting at my LGS today.
Saw this 4" heavy-barreled S&W revolver in the case with a hang-tag on it that said 13-1, 357 mag. Looked interesting so I asked for a closer look at it.

P&R, pretty good amount of holster wear on it around the muzzle and cylinder flutes, but lockup is nice and tight, and minimal cylinder end play / shake. Forcing cone, bore, & chambers all looked good. Original black washer grips, SN is D770XXX and a couple of other odd stampings under the grips at the bottom of the grip frame.

Then I looked in the crane area and noticed that the model number stamp was really hard to read. Looked at it more closely and here's what I saw.

The first photo shows what it looks like.
The second photo shows what I believe to be the original stamping highlighted in grey (10-6).
The third photo shows what I believe to be the overstamping highlighted in grey (13-1)

Is this unusual? Their asking price is $449, but I can probably negotiate that down a little. Think it's worth it? Sorry but I neglected to take any photos of the whole gun (DUH!)

JP@AK · #2 04-14-2015, 10:34 PM

Not too surprising. The Model 13 had its origin in an order from the New York State Police for a fixed-sight, K frame service revolver chambered for the .357 Magnum cartridge.
This request was received during the production period for the Model 10-5/10-6. Since the NYSP wanted the heavy barrel, S&W filled the order using Model 10-6 frames, but with cylinders bored for the longer case and a .357 Magnum stamp on the barrel. The earliest examples were marked in the yoke cut as MOD 10-6.
The initial order led to broader demand for this configuration (including from the FBI) so the company decided to give the gun its own model designation and it became the Model 13. My guess is your example dates from that period when the new model number was just being introduced and an over-stamp would have been appropriate. Since your serial number indicates production in early 1975, that seems to fit, if I recall correctly.

BC38 · #3 04-14-2015, 10:47 PM

LOL, you jumped in with a reply before I could post my second set of pictures!

Fourth photo is the serial # D770XXX
Fifth & sixth photos are the right & left side side grip frame stampings
Last photo is the R stamped on the face of the cylinder (seems like I read somewhere that meant something).

BC38 · #4 04-14-2015, 10:49 PM

So as an "early" example, does this gun have any special value? Is it worth $450 in good shooter grade condition?

They also have a 65-5 with what looked like about an inch shorter barrel and rubber grips for $550. It is much less "finish challenged" though not quite in pristine condition. Would that possibly be the better buy?

JP@AK · #5 04-14-2015, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

So as an "early" example, does this gun have any special value?

I doubt it.

Quote:

Is it worth $450 in good shooter grade conition?

I think so. It would be a fun gun to have.

The R indicated it should get counter-bored charge holes and the appropriate extractor star. This distinguished it from the .38 Special cylinders that were not recessed.

BC38 · #6 04-14-2015, 11:24 PM

Can a moderator please move this thread to the
S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 section and then delete this post?
I just realized that since this 13-1 is a 4-screw I posted my question in the wrong section.
SCRATCH THAT! I was mistaken on the definition of a 4-screw, not on where I started this thread!

Kansasgunner · #7 04-14-2015, 11:28 PM

IIRC didn't the 10-6 357 Magnums also have a wider smooth "Combat" trigger? I let the one I had slip away several years ago. It was a really good shooter.

JP@AK · #8 04-14-2015, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

Can a moderator please move this thread to the S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 section . . . ?

Why would Lee do that? We've already established from the serial number that your revolver was made in 1975.

Quote:

I just realized that since this 13-1 is a 4-screw I posted my question in the wrong section.

There is no way a Model 13-1 could have a four screw frame. There was no such thing as a Model 13-1 until 1974 and the four screw frames had been gone for more than a decade at that time. You have a 3 screw revolver. Perhaps you are getting confused and counting the strain screw?

KEN L · #9 04-14-2015, 11:35 PM

This one demands a letter!

BC38 · #10 04-14-2015, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansasgunner

IIRC didn't the 10-6 357 Magnums also have a wider smooth "Combat" trigger? I let the one I had slip away several years ago. It was a really good shooter.

Yessir, you are correct - it does indeed have the smooth but wider trigger, and the wider target hammer too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Why would Lee do that? We've already established from the serial number that your revolver was made in 1975.

OOPS! Sorry, I missed that info in the previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

There is no way a Model 13-1 could have a four screw frame. There was no such thing as a Model 13-1 until 1974 and the four screw frames had been gone for more than a decade at that time. You have a 3 screw revolver. Perhaps you are getting confused and counting the strain screw?

OOPS again! You are of course correct - I was thinking 3 sideplate screws and a hammer spring tensioning screw in the front of the grip frame made it a 4-screw. Mixing up my terms there, sorry!

So in the condition described does it sound like a good buy for $449?

Absalom · #11 04-15-2015, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

So in the condition described does it sound like a good buy for $449?

You have to decide what your priorities are. If you're dead set on a .357 as a shooter, it's not a steal, but not unreasonable either. Of course you could get a 10-6 in the condition you describe for probably less than $ 300 if you can live with a .38 Spl.
On the other hand, I have a thing for oddities, so I'd buy that gun for that price without hesitation just because of the overstamp and immediately send for a letter, knowing there's a decent chance it'll letter to an agency. But that's just my priority.

BC38 · #12 04-15-2015, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

You have to decide what your priorities are. If you're dead set on a .357 as a shooter, it's not a steal, but not unreasonable either. Of course you could get a 10-6 in the condition you describe for probably less than $ 300 if you can live with a .38 Spl.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 38's A LOT. My screen name is my initials and 38 for the caliber of my first S&W - but I already have a 15-5 that's a nice shooter as well as a couple of 38's that are good carry pieces. I don't have a medium length 357 that is a "shooter" - one that I can use and not worry about hurting its value. Hence my interest in the 10-6/13-1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

On the other hand, I have a thing for oddities, so I'd buy that gun for that price without hesitation just because of the overstamp and immediately send for a letter, knowing there's a decent chance it'll letter to an agency. But that's just my priority.

So would it have more value if it lettered to an agency - or would that just make it more interesting to you?

I generally make my gun buying decisions based mainly on 3 criteria
1) Value - what it's worth vs. what I have to pay for it.
2) Desire - something I want that I don't already have
3) Caliber - something I can reload for - and do I already reload it (I've started reloading everything I shoot except 22lr)

So you see, this revolver fits 2 of the 3 criteria (Desire and Caliber) but I'm trying to decide if it is a good VALUE (worth vs. price)

S.Bergeron · #13 04-15-2015, 11:14 AM

I'd grab the 13-1 in a heartbeat

Absalom · #14 04-15-2015, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

........ I don't have a medium length 357 that is a "shooter" - one that I can use and not worry about hurting its value.
............
So would it have more value if it lettered to an agency - or would that just make it more interesting to you?
..........

It would definitely make it more interesting to me, and there-in lies added value for collectors like me.
On a gun like this, you can't get too hung up on "value" as an objective thing. It isn't. We get into this discussion occasionally when talking about police-marked guns. There are folks here who will tell you that department markings on a gun lower its value; on the other hand there are niche collectors like me who occasionally will happily pay a hundred bucks more than what the condition would justify because of the marking. Value is really only what you can find someone to pay you at the time you want to sell it, especially on guns like this where unusual features make it difficult to research comparable prices.
On a used gun as you describe, I would not worry about affecting that resale value by carrying and shooting the gun; that would really only concern NIB guns.

BC38 · #15 04-15-2015, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.Bergeron

I'd grab the 13-1 in a heartbeat

OK, thanks for the feedback.
Care to elaborate on the reasons behind your choice? Especially if they relate to any of my 3 buying criteria....

nedlate · #16 04-15-2015, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

P&R, pretty good amount of holster wear on it around the muzzle and cylinder flutes, but lockup is nice and tight, and minimal cylinder end play / shake. Forcing cone, bore, & chambers all looked good. Original black washer grips

Their asking price is $449, but I can probably negotiate that down a little. Think it's worth it? Sorry but I neglected to take any photos of the whole gun (DUH!)

For me with the bluing wear described it would be worth $350-375. The biggest draw would be that the gun is a model 13/357 magnum. With less wear comes more value. A picture of the gun would help with the value question.

Ed

BC38 · #17 04-20-2015, 08:06 PM

Well guys, I made my decision. I brought the 10-6/13-1 home with me today.... and put a 25% deposit on the 65-5 too!

I'll post some more pictures of the 10-6/13-1 here in the next day or two. Photos of the 65-5 will have to wait until I get it paid off and bring it home...

44wheelman · #18 04-20-2015, 09:08 PM

I am curious what the width of your trigger is. The original 10-6 357 had a .400" wide, smooth trigger.... I wonder if yours is the same?

BC38 · #19 04-21-2015, 01:21 AM

A few cell phone photos - starting with the left side

BC38 · #20 04-21-2015, 01:30 AM

...and then the right side...

BC38 · #21 04-21-2015, 01:33 AM

...and lastly in my old basket-weave forward-cant ex-LEO's holster...

BC38 · #22 04-22-2015, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44wheelman

I am curious what the width of your trigger is. The original 10-6 357 had a .400" wide, smooth trigger.... I wonder if yours is the same?

Looks like it. I measured it with a tape at 13/32" - which is .406"

BC38 · #23 04-22-2015, 05:45 PM

One more bit of advice guys.
Should I get this gun lettered? Think it would be worth it since it looks to possibly be one of the early ones?

I'm also debating using some Oxpho Blue to touch up the wear marks on the cylinder and barrel. I know a lot of people cringe at that idea, but I cringe at the idea of unprotected metal surfaces on a gun that's going to get carried and used in the woods too...