Quote from GRT3031:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig:
"Maybe 5 years ago on a visit to Chicago I saw a senior cop (a Lt. or Captain not a patrol officer) with a group of cops watching a street event (some sort of fair). He had what looked to me like a 4" K frame with target stocks in his holster. I said hello and told him it was really cool to see an officer wearing a revolver. Well, he did NOT want to talk to me about his pistol and I felt lucky I got away without being arrested or beaten."

Yep, Saxon, I can relate. A fellow who is nervous to talk to the public, well I guess he is in the wrong line of work.
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Some of that depends on where one is and a number of variables that may not be readily apparent. Chicago is not a city full of gun enthusiasts, and such a question would be odd to many cops there. Those of you from other areas would of course find that mindset really weird. Then of course, you have the reality that cops generally hate people, for many reasons hard to understand if you haven't been there. It was one of the reasons I hated dayshift with a burning passion.

The officer could actually have been trying to do something else, or watch someone or something that he thought was suspicious. I have had people interfere with me that way, and I was none too cheerful with them. I've also had people stand too close while I am interacting with someone else (20 yards away is a good choice if you feel compelled to watch or film me), and they didn't get a big bowl of sunshine either. I can tell you that after the Lakewood murders in 2009 (4 cops murdered by a felon who just went into a coffee shop and targeted them) that approaching a cop in most places around where I have been was a good way to get a really hateful stare and maybe worse.

I have to work really hard to avoid my reflexive response to people who approach me in most settings. It's unkind and contains words at which our beloved forum owner and his minions would frown. Fortunately, I have a pretty unwelcoming demeanor and if I am walking Bozo, most people get the clue and keep their distance.

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NHI, 10-8.

"Cops generally hate people"?

that seems absurd.

Back on topic: a lot of LEOs & COs around here (W Michigan) do carry j frames off duty or as BUGs.

I started in 1984. All the cool kids carried a .45. So I did too. Height of the IPSC era, used to compete all the time. Had Wilson build me a Master Grade 130 I carried for years in a Milt Sparks duty holster. Then got issued a Glock 35 and currently a 22.

But, this gun has been in a pocket or on my ankle for 25 years. It's the only gun I've owned that I may wear out, from the outside in.





A buddy of mine at Dallas PD still carries his original 66 every day.

Texmex nailed it. Positive ejection of the rounds moon clipped in the cylinder, and a little more positive reloading with the speed loaders. They are 5 star speed loaders by the way, very well designed and hold the rounds securely.

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Tom
"Panem et Circenses"

Several months ago I was in a local movie theater and saw a veteran cop carrying what I thought was, from a distance, a short barreled model 629 in a thumb break holster. I went over and started talking to him and he told me it's actually a 657 with 3" barrel! He chose to stick with the revolver even though most of the department went Glock.

I have been retired for ten years this past Feb. and my last duty weapon was an H&K USP in .45ACP BUT, my back up gun was a S&W model 60. It rode in an ankle holster or a jacket pocket depending on the weather.

about the only folks carring wheel guns here are security guards. and even then its becoming fewer and fewer. here in charlotte i have seen some with SS K frames

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God save the SOUTH

Some states still require security guards to carry .38's, some draconian law probably from the 1930's or something. Although many are changing because businesses don't want warehouses full of millions of dollars of equipment guarded by a guy with a Taurus 82......so now they'll be guarded by a guy with the cheapest auto the company can get away with lol the real reason is probably the old wheelguns are getting old, and Glock pretty much gives guns away to security companies, and S&W will buy back old wheelguns in exchange for an M&P contract for decades.......so security companies have no reason not to switch to auto loaders. Truth is going to Glock is cheaper than buying more cheap Taurus 82's.

I saw an armored car guard a while back with what looked like some kind of Colt revolver, the guy looked about 80 so he's probably been carrying that gun forever.

In 10 years probably less we'll see nearly 0 wheelguns in any kind of duty holster, we're kind of at the tail end of the last of the changing of the "old guard" for LEO's and security guards, and even Corrections Dept's won't buy new wheelguns since they are expensive. No state bean counter will want to pay even $500 each for new 64-8's when Glock will give them guns in some "buy 10 get 5 if you stay with Glock forever" deal......the duty gun world is starting to become plastic dominated, because they're cheap, light and they work for 7-10 years and they just buy new plastic. Duty guns are disposable now, the days of small town deputy sheriffs carrying the same S&W 13 for 40 years are over.

In 10-20 years even I'll feel like a dinosaur telling stories about how I qualified with and carried a S&W revolver with the DOC.

I even recall back in 2001 when I had a chance to go to the PA ACT 121 academy and was told I had to bring a 9mm pistol, and due to recent changes .38 revolvers were no longer authorized at the academy. Now, that wouldn't even be mentioned.

The only holdout left is the PA private armed security license certification still allows you to qualify with a .38 revolver. A lot of the smaller armored car companies let you carry pretty much anything and some people buy garbage like those Armscor M200 $200 .38 revolvers (yes I bought one years ago, they're not worth $50) or some other junk like those Argentinean "Comanches" that shoot loose in 50 rounds.....

Last time I was DC, the Smithsonian Police at the Air & Space museum were carrying DAO 64's with Hogue's.

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Dave

A few years ago at minute maid ballpark in Houston just about every HPD officer I saw young and old carried a S@W revolver with target or rubber grips

Not that I get around that much, but in the last 10 years I've seen 2...and neither of them really count. At the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History the security person guarding the Hope Diamond was packing a revolver. Also the guard at my bank carries what appears to be a GP-100.

Deputy Rick Grimes of King County Georgia carries a stainless Python

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It is unless you consider the conditions under which cops meet most people. Likewise prosecutors, CPS worker, ER nurses. I'm no longer in LE, but still a prosecutor. Spend enough time in the waste ejection port of human behavior, getting smeared with the ejecta, and it changes your perspective forever. Unfortunate, probably, but real.

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NHI, 10-8.

I know most if not all will disagree with this, but I think revolvers will eventually make a strong comeback as service weapons in the Law Enforcement and citizen community. The dominance of semi automatics is more of a contemporary psychological fad based on the idea created by Hollywood that revolvers are outdated and undergunned and semi autos are an advanced killing machine. Sooner or later reality will set back in and revolver will not be so easily dismissed out of hand and semi autos will not be so taken for granted. Winning a gunfight has more to do with shooter skills (shot placement) than playing Mel Gibson or Bruce Willis with a sprayomatic.

Not likely for 2 good reasons. The first is that it is a lot harder to train officers to an appropriate standard of speed and accuracy with revolvers. That difficulty and time is expensive, and the skill is harder to maintain.

The second is weight. A fully loaded revolver is heavier than a typical service pistol, and the cumulative weight for a cop makes for discomfort and injuries. Another reason is that generally, the objective testing ammo to meet the appropriate standard for duty ammo is simply not done with revolver calibers. There are a few exceptions, but there is a far more limited set of choices for revolver ammo, and the revolver calibers would have to be in place before ammo makers spent the time and money to apply what they know to revolver calibers.

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NHI, 10-8.

I've seen a number of local/semi-local LE wearing revolvers as their duty guns over the last few years.

In fact, I saw a pair today that looked to have either M686's or M66's on their hips.

Just returned from an out of town trip, fired up the laptop, and came across this interesting post and the respective responses.

A 'resounding' YES to Mr. GRT in regards to an 'active' law enforcement officer 'still' packing a .38 wheelgun on duty and been doing so since Nov. 1971 when I joined the local PD as a trainee (rookie cop). I will not bore nor tire the very fine members here with a long 'why' that I didn't transition in 92 to the pistol but the short answer is this;

My skill level with the wheelgun supersedes my skill level with the pistol. Contrary to 'some' of the pistol-supporters/advocates claims of;
1-lack of fire power
2-slower reloads
3-harder to train newbes
4-archaic
These four-issues being the top negatives leveled at the old wheelgun. My respectful response would be this;
1-According to the FBS Stats for cop gun fights in America, with very little variation in the past 30-years, 95+% of 'all' cop gun battles are "under 10-feet" and "under 4-shots" so the 'lack-of-firepower' position by pistol advocates is totally unsupported by the FBI's numbers.
2-The reload is slower for the wheelgun. I just experienced that myself in the yearly qualification. But with the FBI facts/figures the likelihood of a 'fast' reload needed is moot!
3-I take exception to the revolver being harder to master than the pistol. Anyone familiar with the mechanics of both weapon systems (revolver/pistol) know that the recoil factor of the wheelgun versus the pistol is firmly in the revolvers corner. The six "sure" rounds are going to be launched whereas, even in our Glock 21 Pistols, there is a 'special' class given on 'clearing' your Glock for stovepipe issues (jams). Yes, jams are still a dangerous factor with the cop packing a pistol here in 2015. So much so that a special class is given for this specific, and possibly fatal, shortcoming of the self-loading pistol, no matter what model pistol you have. I shoot much better with the revolver and group placement is "still" the number one factor in a successful gun fight for a cop or citizen.

GRT3031, I proudly pack a S&W Model 10-4 (4"HB) on duty that is supported by another .38 Service Revolver I have carried since Dec. 71, and that is a Colt Official Police (4"bbl.). I retired in 92 and started a second law enforcement career 5-days later as a deputy sheriff here in Muscogee County Georgia. Thanks for your interest sir and sorry for the long post here. I do hope my respectful report here is accepted as such. I value the opinions here very much and would never intentionally be disrespectful to anyone here.

David

Been active law enforcement for 43+years and packed a revolver the whole way. grand-fathered in in 92 and 'never' felt under-armed with the .38 revolver. Thanks again!

Not as my primary sidearm but a plain ol' model 36 as a second gun. My primary sidearm is my M&P in 45 ACP. I would be comfortable with a revolver as that is what I carried when starting.

Would probably go with my 686 4". But could choose from several if needed.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

I know at LAPD, you don't see many wheel guns in duty holsters anymore. Once in a while I'll see an old patrol sergeant, detective or LT with one. All the ones carried here are in .38 Special.

One sergeant in my division carries a model 67 (I believe) with hogue grips. A while back before I got to the division, there was a firearm training day where he apparently out shot EVERY SINGLE officer and supervisor, using his wheel gun.

I've always loved revolvers, but I carry a 4566 at work. Ultimately though, it's the man behind the gun that matters most.

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"to protect and to serve"

I carry my dads old model 36 as a backup if that counts

A few years back, I saw an older officer in Montgomery County, Texas carrying a S&W 625 in .45 Colt.

A few years before that, I was working on Calder Road in Galveston County (Texas Killing Fields) before a subdivision was going to be constructed in the same area where a serial killer or serial killers had dumped approximately 30 bodies over the years. Back then it was mostly fields of low brush without much around except a few oil wells.

There had just been a couple of abductions along Interstate 45 and plain clothes officer drove back there and asked If I had seen anything unusual while I was working there. He was carrying what appeared to be a S&W 19 with a 2.5" barrel.

Taken last summer in Central Park. NYPD Sergeant with his Model 10. Look at that leather gear. Some will say it's a disgrace, but as a retired NY cop, worn leather gear and a blued spurred hammer revolver were real status symbols. The Sgt is probably a detective sergeant getting OT so he was back in the bag for the day.

And that Sgt looks like he could still kick some serious ***.

Makes me wish I'd grabbed a pic of that Trooper I ran into a couple weeks ago. Would have been a great shot with him and his big S&W and BMW police motor.

I hardly think its a disgrace, but when I see the Sgt. I think the caption should read, "Retention holster???? I DON'T WANNA HEAR IT!!!"

Actually, those Jay Pee holsters had great retention. There was a flap of leather sewn on the inside that the cylinder locked under. To draw the gun, you put your thumb in the holster between the flap and the cylinder and twisted the gun slightly to free the gun. Not easy to do if you weren't wearing the gun. In addition, you were trained to flip the holster upside down so the stocks were facing down in the event of an attempted grab. I don't recall ever hearing of a single gun grab.

The holster came in a swivel model too. Early models had reports on the swivel stud breaking and the holster and gun dropping. Later version reinforced the stud and no more problems. The swivel model was no longer authorized after about 1992, but rookies would go out and get the swivel version anyway to look more veteran. Bosses never really busted chops over it. The swivel was much more comfortable for riding in a patrol car. We used to rest the holster on the tops of our legs as we drove around easier to draw the gun if need be.

I think that holster is a jaypee and it is a mention type, you just can't see it.

I kind of have a rule with my people. It doesn't have to be shined, but, it should at least be the same color as when it was issued.

We were standing around once. One of my Officers (who is now a Sergeant) was standing beside me....his boots were pretty rough....

Hey Sarge...
Me: what's up? Those new boots?
Yup, had them a few weeks now
Me: They look comfortable...
They sure are, they are the new ZP500 Super Pursuit Ranger boot (or whatever) waterproof, elastomer etc...etc....
Me: Nice.....they come in black?
Uh...gotcha Sarge, I'll take care of it....

That old NYPD Sarge like was said probably dug out his old duty gear and 10 to work some OT, he probably wears that stuff a handful of times a year. He probably packs a Glock 26 as a duty weapon normally.

I actually doubt it. I can't quite read his collar brass, but if he was assigned to the Detective Bureau, it would simply say DB and it says more than that. It looks like it might say Central Park, and if he is assigned to the Central Park precinct, than he is uniform patrol and wears that everyday.

Now the other officer, if he is assigned to Central Park, that would shock me a bit. Central Park is all about spit shine appearance, although the 30 plus year veteran Sgt DOES meet the guidelines, since leather gear must be clean and serviceable only, not to mention old time bosses aren't gonna get bothered by that stuff anyway. But the facial hair on that cop wouldn't really fly. Black guys were known to get exemptions for it while in uniform due to some skin bump issue, but even in Central Park that was frowned upon. The CP cops generally look like poster boy cops.

The old cop with the revolver's pants don't exactly look like standard police uniform. Looks more like some kind of military pants

They authorized those BDU pants over 10 years ago. Big improvement over the polyester duty pants still approved that the other cop is wearing. Much more comfortable, durable, and more pockets for stuff. Don't know why anybody still buys the poly ones.

For me it was just the opposite. I grew up shooting revolvers, and became quite proficient with them. When I finally went to a centerfire auto, my accuracy dropped way off, and so did my speed.

Took a while to analyze the problem, but it had to do with a visual difference between the guns for very close shooting as well as aligning on target.

The revolver has a narrower barrel than the slide of an auto. For close shooting where you point instead of using the sights, the narrow barrel aids in aligning the gun. The barrel points like a shotgun, where you do not use a rear sight. The auto, being fatter, lacks that, and you have to switch back to sights at all times, or at least I did. In addition, when using the sights, the muzzle climbs. When recovering, the narrower barrel of the revolver allows you to prealign the sights as the barrel drops back down. The auto slide, again being wider, thwarted this. The wider the slide, the worse the problem.

My solution, after figuring this out, was to take white automotive pinstriping tape, and run a length of it from the base of the front sight to right in front of the notch of the rear sight, skipping the ejection port/barrel breech. This gave me a visual and helped with alignment.

I started with wider tape, and progressively switched to narrower tape, and eventually no tape. If tape was still needed, I had planned to have lines engraved to replace the tape, and the lines would be filled with white tire marking paint. But as it turns out, that was not necessary.

Saw about six today. This officer is a member of the honor guard of our local police department. They all are carrying model 686. And though they only carry them for ceremony, they each have to qualify with them in addition to Glock 40's they carry every day.
These pics were at the local observance of National Police Week. Proud of our guys!

The Peace Officers of the NYS Department of Corrections still use 4" S&W model 10's. Most of them are - 8,-9,-10,and - 11. Many original Magna grips and some Uncle Mikes. The newest version - 11's are S&W "classic series" guns with brand new walnut service grips. HKS speed loaders and Gould and Goodrich holsters /pouches are issued.

The CERT teams switched to the Glock 17 some time ago when the NYS Troopers switched to .45GAP and transferred their old G17's to NYSDOCS. Most of those Glock 17 pistols are in storage while NYSDOCS figures out how to make them the future service weapons.

A buddy of mine just qualified with a Model 19 last week. He's a detective now but he has carried a wheel gun in uniform once before in his 16 years.

I prefer my 1911 but I've been known to carry a 642 to court or off duty now and again

I attended an LAPD promotion ceremony last week...a friend of mine was one of a number of newly minted sergeants. After the ceremony, as I wandered about outside the LAPD HQ auditorium, I saw a fellow packing a revolver. A six inch Smith. Stainless steel. The grips were S&W target style, must have come with the gun. I would guess it was a Model 68---a .38 Special, but on the same frame as the Model 66.

That officer definitely had some time on the job!

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Trust, but verify - R. Reagan

I will be qualifying with a 4 inch 66-1 in the very near future for duty carry.

Up until the mid 1970s, the LAPD was issued the S&W M-14 K-38 Target Masterpiece 6 inch.

Well, the polyester pants do look more professional. Goes with the uniform a lot better. The BDU makes the guy look more like a meter man or a plumber.

I started 26 years ago with a 2nd hand Model 19 with the old Hogue hard plastic MonoGrip. Transitioned into a S&W 645 two years later. I still pull out the 19 when the new cadets whine that the times are too short for their training and quals....I shoot it with the 19 and speed loaders....they buy my lunch and they don't whine out loud.

I have a 36 that I sometimes carry off duty, but these days its a Glock 21 on my hip and a Glock 30 on my ankle when I am working. The boss limited cal and make and model of gun to 3 and phased out revolvers, even for us old guys last year.

Its a shame...I liked sometimes packing the 28 or the 19 or...There was an LT in the traffic bureau that carried a 6 inch 27 in a cross draw....yes I know the issues...but he was good with it and it was cool to see.

After the Model 14 six inch, as I understand it, the Department gradually switched to the four inch Model 15. I've also heard that Department armorers cut down six inch barrels to four inch barrels on issued revolvers.

(Of course, bear in mind that when a large agency like LAPD changes the issued weapon, the new weapon goes to new officers in the Academy, not to in-service officers with previously issued guns. For example, though the Department stopped issuing the Beretta 92 several years ago, officers issued that pistol, like my ex-wife, still have the Beretta. LAPD officers can also purchase and use for duty other handguns approved by LAPD, provided they have completed any required transition training. So, officers issued the Beretta, for example, can carry personally owned Glocks provided it's an approved model and they've completed the requisite training. Officers originally issued revolvers must complete transition training before they can carry any authorized semi-auto).

Anyway, the LAPD eventually switched from the Model 15 to its stainless version, the Model 67. A four inch barreled gun, this was the last issued revolver before the transition to the Beretta 92 which began in the very late '80s.

In 1983, Smith and Wesson produced its Model 68-2. These had six inch barrels and were double action only, per LAPD requirements. The barrels were marked "Los Angeles Police Department". See the Standard Catalogue of Smith and Wesson excerpt below.

As I understand it, the 68-2s were not sold to LAPD, but rather to individual LAPD officers, probably through the Los Angeles Police Revolver and Athletic Club (LAAPRAC) which operates a gun shop at the old LAPD Academy in Elysian Park, near Dodger Stadium.

I bought a 68-2 used in 1999 or so at Martin Retting in Culver City, Calif. and gave it to my then wife. Some photos are below.

The officer I saw last week had a stainless steel six inch Smith. I don't believe such a revolver was ever issued by the Department. The Model 67 only came with a four inch barrel.

So, I'd guess the officer I saw had a six inch 68-2. It's the same as a Model 66, but .38 Special only (this was a LAPD requirement, as guns chambered in .357 Magnum like the Model 66 and 19 were never authorized by LAPD). It's double action only, another LAPD requirement. The 68-2s came with the Smith checkered target stocks. When I found this 68-2, it had the Hogue Monogrip you see pictured. I presume the original owner made that change. The officer I saw last week had his revolver stocked with the Smith and Wesson wood target grips. He wore it in a swivel holster (which is pretty much a necessity with a six inch revolver, and is popular still, even with LAPD officers armed with semi-autos).

The six inch guns, despite the issuance of four inch revolvers, have long maintained a loyal LAPD following. I can see why! That 68-2 sure feels like a solid, formidable duty gun. It probably looks that way to suspects, too! Also, with its extra weight and longer sight radius, it would offer an advantage over a four inch gun when shooting the LAPD Bonus course (an optional qualification course, featuring two targets and challenging time constraints--it's more demanding than the standard course; officers who successfully qualify shooting "bonus" get a little extra pay, an incentive for marksmanship. Today, I'm told, some officers opt for the authorized long slide Glock models to have an edge when shooting "Bonus").


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Trust, but verify - R. Reagan

As stated above nys doc issue weapon is still a model 10 4inch barrel and I've seen a few of them on hospital details. My department still has a few old timers that qualify with model 64 4inch but the younger guys quality with a fs M&P 9 and the M&P compact for plainclothes officers. I actually acquired a 64 with 4 inch barrel from one of the older officers a few weeks ago for 100 bucks

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Shot placement is key!!

He doesn't look so old to me!!!!

I work pretty close with the county sheriff's dept. here in the county I live in. We have a Colonel that is still working (started here in 1972...the year I was born!) and carries every day a 4" 629 in a leather thumbreak holster loaded with .44 specials (but says a speedloader full of magnums isn't far away) and Pachmayr Gripper grips. I also know the retired town chief of police still carries his 4" M64 everyday in a leather thumbreak

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17-2, 65-5, 442-2, 10-5

Great thread! I work full time plain clothes and all of my primary and secondary weapons are revolvers. From largest to smallest are a 327 trr8, 325 thunder ranch, 325 night guard and an lcr in .357. The trr8 and thunder ranch are both equipped with Crimson trace laser grips and the lcr has a laser max and xd big dot. The only semi I use is a sig p226 tac ops in 9mm with the 20 round mags for search warrant raids. My department is very flexible and allows me to choose as long as you can qualify and operate the weapon with both hands. I am under 40 but have been shooting revolvers since a young age. I am a state certified range instructor as well. I carry the trr8 in the winter months owb in a leather holster with a thumb break and I carry the 325 tr and night guard under a button down shirt in the summer/warmer months. The lcr is my go to deep conceal. I use shielded moonclip holders similar to the one used in nutnfancy's videos on YouTube for all the n frames plus an 8 round speed strip as an emergency reload option. I am taller and thin so I chose this option paired with a safariland rls light. I only have so much belt space so I need to carry a small radio, light, cuffs, gun, badge and extra ammo all without pulling my pants down or looking like the stay puff marshmallow man. The new age wheel guns fit the bill perfectly. The scandium n frames are light and easy to conceal with the thin grips. I chose .45 models because I'm not a fan of short barreled .357 due to the excessive recoil and my opinion that a longer barrel (4-5") is required for best magnum results. I did catch a little bit of flack years ago for the choice but after completing all of the training drills like move and shoot, weak hand etc. everyone is just used to it. I also don't recommend or try to sell other officers to carry one. I have been shooting them since age 12 so it's just natural for me but hard to teach the glock generation. Plus I fire thousands of rounds (free rounds wooohhooo) each year so the "qualify once a year crowd" shouldn't even consider it. I will say that I feel very well armed when I leave the house every day. I will post a thread soon so we can continue the conversation! Stay safe!!

I carry an RMR equipped Glock 19 for my duty gun, but I still qualify with two others every year. S&W M65-5 and a M337. The M337 is my backup and I am still able to outshoot 95% of my department with their service autos with it and the M65 is for office duty or low profile assignments.

If I had to carry the Custom M65 as my duty gun, I would be happy to do it.

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Captain Dave Funk

Had a couple of patrol that had career enders with cuffs in the small of back. When I rewrote a manual about 5 years ago only thing is a glove holder allowed there. Also got rid of key carriers. They took out call boxes in 1980 so what was the point. Now 30+ years later game well 911 boxes are being installed. So keys are coming back. Guess it looks good for.tourists.

I couple of years ago I had to speak with an NYPD Captain concerning a case we both were working on. He was a uniform guy carrying a stainless Ruger in a JayPee holster. I believe it was a Service Six. I asked him about it, and he said it was the only service firearm he ever carried. I asked him about the load he carried in it. His reply was "not sure, whatever they gave me." I suspect he was carrying the Speer 135 grain +P load.

Also while in DC I noticed that some of the security personnel (I believe they are sworn special officers) at some of the museums carried fixed sighted K frames - probably model 64's.

They're still out there, but rare.

The nys corrections still is heavily armed with model tens almost all the guards I see at the hospital transporting prisoners are carrying them. I have only once seen the supposed replacement glock 17 when they had some sort of high risk prisoner and there were six armed guards with the guy ( only one had a glock) usually the ratio is one unarmed and one armed per prisoner. Nice to still see the model ten is use