Recently bought a Model 25-5 because I just love 45 Colt and sold all my other blued S&Ws in that caliber. Picked up one as close to new as I've ever seen.




Everything on it is as perfect as I could hope for: timing perfect, no end shake, tight lockup, perfect deep blue finish, brilliant colors on hammer and trigger and smooth double action pull. As expected the SA pull was crisp and clean. However, as I also expected, the throats were way, way oversized - between .456" and .457", and not all the same. My intent simply put was to see how accurate I could make the gun. This is the first report, a baseline if you will, on how successful I am at attaining that goal.

Shooting at 50 yards using a 6 o'clock hold from a seated rest position (wrists on rest). Light was good but I had trouble keeping the shots on the target, let alone in the black. The group shooting a reload of known performance, was in excess of 12 inches.

Keith

This load in a Ruger Bisley shoots into 6" at 50 yards without fliers. In a Bowen custom Model 58 rechambered to 45 Colt, this load goes into half that or about 3" at 50 yards. It is a very consistent repeatable load (Laser Cast 250 grain RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique, measured 945 fps from a 4" Mountain Gun).

I have reached out to Brian Reese (765-541-8584) for some 260 grain Keith style bullets with a hardness of about 14 Brinnell, what Elmer used to recommend. My intent is to see if the softer bullet upsets enough to do a better job of filling the throats, but not so soft as to lead the barrel. My starting point for loading is the same 8.5 grains of Unique. I'll keep you all up to date on my progress.

Lastly, the sights are set all the way down. The front sight measures .210" and the gun has a .125" rear sight blade. Ideally, it should have a .250" front sight and .135" rear blade.

Keith

I've found that the easiest way to make these guns shoot well is to use Rainier bullets.

Move your target up from 50 yards to 15 yards and reshoot. I'd be lucky to stay in the black at 50 yards with a target that size.
I'm not sure those results are meaningful.
And while you are at it, try using the bottom of the black as the aim point. I find that sitting a black dot on top ot the sight picture works better than trying to place black sights against a black target and get repeatable results.

Very curious what you mean. As stated in the first post, I used a 6 o'clock hold. That puts the bull on top of the front sight. And how is shooting at a shorter distance more meaningful when measuring accuracy? I'm probably missing your point so please help me understand. By the way, the target is a standard 50 yard bullseye target.

Keith

Have you tried it with any jacketed bullets? I have a 25-2 with .455 throats and when I run 230 ball through it it shoots just fine. Cast bullets it opens way up. I tried .454" cast bullets and got terrible leading just front of the forcing cone. The gun is relegated to jacketed, and now Powder Coated bullets.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

If you are trying to evaluate accuracy, comparative group size is the only way that makes any sense to me. To do that, you need to be able to clearly see both the sight picture and its position on the target. I can't do that at 50 yards. At 15 yards, I can do it and I can compare one group to another to evaluate different loads and different guns. Here's an example showing 2 groups shot from the same gun, same load. I turned the target upside down to shoot group #2.



BTW, I have found all my 45 Colts do better with softer bullets, 14 BNH as you said. I have a comparative target that shows groups of the same bullet in 14 BNH and 22 BNH.

I'd have put those Ahrends (?) stocks, TH and TT on that good-shooting M58 and settled for that. But that's just me.

Larry

Sir you are 100% correct! The key to your statement is "clearly see"! In my younger years I would shoot my 29 Silhouette at 100 yards for group evaluation. Sitting, barrel rested(hell on sand bags), and open sights! If your going to be shooting at something at 100-200 yards, don't sight the gun in at 15 yards. In the groups from cprher's gun you can clearly see he has many fliers which can be caused by the gun and/or the shooter. IMHO, the only true solution to his problem is bigger dia. bullets!
jcelect

I have read of folks using 0.454" diameter bullets in cases like this.

That is where I'm going next. Called Bryan Reece, a well respected bullet guy who will be sending me some 250 Keith bullets sized to .454" and about 14 Brinnell hardness. I'm hoping this will reduce the number of flyers. All I'm looking for now is a nice consistent cluster on the target. Not looking for target grade type of accuracy, a 6" to 7" group would be fine by me as long as I get those pesky flyers to go away. As I said, more later when I give them a test.

Keith

Bear in mind that resting the barrel on sandbags will probably give you tighter groups, but will likely mislead you regarding point of aim vs point of impact. So if you adjust your rear sight while resting the barrel on a bag, your offhand point of impact will not be what you expected.
One option is to rest barrel on bag to evaluate best possible group size, but rest only hands on bags to adjust the sights.
That is, unless you have the dough to pop for a Ransom Rest!

Sometimes plated or jacketed bullets perform well despite the oversize throats. For standard pressure and velocity loads I found that the Remington 250gr LRN bullets at .455" diameter shoot quite well in my Colt's and S&W's with oversize throats and bought in the 1000 box are not all that expensive. My home cast Kieth type 270gr bullets at .454" diameter also work quite well.

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Stay safe people!

Well, I've shot about 200 rounds of my 45 Colt load (255 grain RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique) through my "new" 25-5. Accuracy is still the same as in the pictures I shared earlier. From time to time "groups" will form but the gun sends flyers hither and yon with no apparent rhyme or reason. Took the gun to my smith and we spent a couple hours cleaning the gun, and lightly stoning the action. Gun looks good inside and out and is smoothing up nicely. While he did his thing, I took the time to carefully measure the throats with his very expensive digital calipers. Five throats measured between .459" and .4595" and one throat measured .460". Frankly, I'm not at all sure the new larger bullets will make any real difference but I'm going to give it the old college try. Wish me luck.

Keith

Wow. Those throats are huge!

There seems to be some confusion of what "soft" is. A BHN of 14 is definitely not soft, unless of course you are comparing it to the BHN 18 bullets that most commercial casters offer. Keith developed the .44 Magnum using 16:1 alloy bullets with a BHN of 11. I cast my .45 Colt bullets with an alloy of 10-11 BHN, and I drive them 150-200fps faster than you do. Oh, and I second the recommendation of moving closer for accuracy testing to reduce sighting errors.

Don

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

Not sure whether you were talking to me or to someone else, Don; but I have gotten better results with softer (11 BNH) bullets than from harder versions (22 BNH) of the same bullet from the same maker. Is a hard bullet (18 BNH or so) needed to kill dangerous game such as hogs? I'm not sure what 'hard' cast bullets are needed for. Are you?

I was going to ask what's the size of your expander die (a larger one being better for oversized bullets, like those found in Cowboy Action die sets) but since they're that large you'd probably be better off just going with coated/plated/jacketed bullets. They shot better in my SRH 454 with large throats.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Keith - With throats that large, there is something that might work for you. For years Remington and Winchester loaded the .45c with a hollow base bullet. This allowed the bullet base to expand and contract as needed in the many Colt SA's with large throats, increasing accuracy. Same principal really as the .38 spl. HBWC. These bullets have worked well in an old Colt SA of mine, making a noticeable difference in accuracy compared to cast .454 SWC's. An internet search may find some of these bullets for sale, as they were offered to reloaders.

I'm sure a search would also find someone making or offering a set of molds with a Hollow Base pin for making your own, with the added benefit of being able to customize BNH to your liking. I believe the REM / WIN versions were all soft swaged.

Larry

Rainiers or Berry bullets are usually cheaper than jacketed but a few cents more than cast. I've used them in guns with oversize throats many times with excellent results. They are both copper plated not jacketed and are loaded using cast bullet data.

For my 45 Colt SAA with huge throats I use 20:1, my other 45 Colts and 38 spl, 16:1. These are plenty "hard".

I think the OP has rather unrealistic expectations on what his mdl 25 is going to do, over sized throats or not.

Love your 50 yard test. That is the true test of gun and ammo. Don't listen to those who would have you move in closer. That is the dumbing down of handgun shooting in America. More people have handguns, but few people can shoot them accurately. All over the internet and in some gun rags, folks are touting the "great accuracy" obtained by shooting at 7 yds...Give me a break! Hope you find a solution to your problem.

I started a different post yesterday titled "Model 25-5 Questions."
There was some mention of throat size in that post, and then
I noticed this one too.
I do NOT reload my own ammo, and I do not quite undetstand
all the different types of ammo mentioned here to use in the 25-5.
In simple terms, which factory ammo would be best in the 25-5?
Would it be a plain lead, semi-jacketed, full metal jacket, soft point, or something else?

Thanks,

Stu

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NRA Benefactor/Cert Instructor

With the large throats mentioned in the OP, if I was restricted to factory ammo, I would try this Winchester USA Cowboy Ammo 45 Colt (Long Colt) 250 Grain Lead Flat. With the soft lead and .455" bullets they use, you have your best chance for accuracy.

Don

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

I don't have enough fingers on my hands and toes on my feet to count the number of 45 Colt guns I've owned in my life, most of them shooting the load I mentioned above. It has been my go to load for many years. Are there better loads for a particular gun? Maybe, but this one is consistently accurate in everything but this 25-5. I normally base line my shooting with my 625-5 which sports .453" throats. It shoots this load into 4-5" at 50 yards hand held from a bench. Yes, the extra inch of barrel gives me a bit of an advantage but not much of one. I've also had custom 45 Colts by Hamilton Bowen (about 7 over the years) that when set up with proper throats would shoot this load into 1.5" at 25 yards, again hand held from a bench. Years ago I posted pictures of these groups and the guns that shot them on this forum for discussion.

So, what are my expectations? At least on par with my 625-5, or 5-6" at 50 yards with no unexplained fliers. Do I occasionally throw a flier? Yup, I do, but not without it being called. As to accuracy shooting at 7 or 15 yards? Not my thing. It tells me absolutely nothing in terms of what the gun and load combination is capable of. I go by the first law of Bullseye shooting: never bother testing a slow fire load at 25 yards - it tells you nothing about how it will perform at 50 yards.

Keith

OK, dumb question, but please be patient with me as I am still learning.

If your throats are over sized on a Model 25, say a throat Size of .454 or .455, is the course of action to get a new Cylinder that has (Hopefully) all 6 throats ~.452?

Is that right?

So net/net, if a throat is undersized, ream it (Carefully and by Hand) to .452, but if it is ~.454 or larger, you pretty much need to get a new Cylinder as the bullet wont get a good fit into the barrel and accuracy will suffer?

Right?

Also, is 45 acp and 45 colt the only caliber where the throat size issue regularly comes up? I don't see to recall this being an issue with the other popular Calibers.

Pretty much on the dot. Because of the extreme size of my throats I have no real confidence that I can get the gun to shoot well. Some here may disagree, but then that's OK. Because I don't collect but instead shoot my guns frequently, my best course of action is to replace the cylinder with a Model 29 non-recessed cylinder, have the rear of the barrel cut back slightly for the cylinder to fit properly (and closing up the .006" B/C gap to about .004"), have the cylinder rechambered with a tight 45 Colt reamer, and ream the throats to .453". The general rule of thumb is for the throat to be .001" larger than the bore. This works out perfectly because the bullets I use, Laser Cast, generally run close to .453". This is the combination I have on my 625-5 45 Colt and the gun shoots like a laser.

Keith

Not necessary if you cast, like I do. I have a 25-5 with throats between .454 and .455, and I cast .455" bullets and it shoots great.

Don

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

OK, another dumb question, how can a .455 bullet go down a ~.452/.453.diamater barrel? Is the bullet shaved when it goes into the forcing cone?

Again, just trying to learn more here.

Keith,
Back in the late seventies when the 25-5 hit the market, I bought one...

It would not group with a proven load for nuthing.

Throats were on the big side, but I went to cut an 11 degree taper in
the forcing cone and found the problem...One land of rifling was
completing gone, the entire length of the 4" barrel.

Re-barreled it and it shot like a house on fire....I no longer have that revolver,
a close personal friend has carried it for a couple of decades now.

But, just for the record....

[quote]

This revolver has over size throats as well, but a good barrel.

Shot this just today at 45 feet....My eyes are too old now for the longer ranges.

Remington .455 hollow base lead conical nosed bullets at near factory velocities....

6 Shots




Dave


P.S. This lit'l conumdrum has been on the charts for a whiles..........

I keep just a few handy...Jest in case.




.

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

No shaving. What happens is the bullet slightly elongates. Lead is very malleable.

Don

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NRA Cert. Reloading Instructor

My earlier statement about your expectations was in regard to the revolver. I have (and had) a lot of 45 Colt revolvers. Both the S&W 25-5 and Colt SAA have over sized throats. But there's a lot more than throat sizing that make a gun not shoot worth a hoot. Your on the right track on these posts, send your gun to someone like Bowen, get it re-barreled, new cylinder, timing & lock up fixed and it might put 6 bullets in 3" at 50 yards. Or buy a newer 625 for less than a $1K and have the same results. I cast my own bullets and I can get decent results with a Colt SAA but I gave up on two 25-5s. If I could have got the results at 25 yds you're getting at 50yds I would have kept them.

On bullets the best results is a either a 255 grain LFRN Saeco 955 or a Keith style 270 grain cast from 16:1 or 20:1 which has a hardness of around 10 (same as wheel weights). Start with 16 grains of 2400. Max around 16.5. Works for my SAA.

Got my samples of Bryan Reece's 270 grain Keith GC bullets. Shooting them tomorrow with 8.5 and 9.0 grains of Unique to see how they perform. They are sized .454" and are much longer than the RNFP 250s I've been shooting. According to Reece, the length of the bullet has a lot to do with its accuracy. We'll see.
Keith

Aces and eights, keith? I always heard that the fifth card was a ten.

I reckon I was lucky. I bought a new 4" blue M25-5 in 1980 and .452" jacketed bullets "stick" as I drop them into the chambers. It shoots fine.

I round butted this revolver and carried it as a duty gun for a couple of years. Sold it to my lieutenant at the PD and then bought it back from him in 2008. He passed in 2009. It ain't going anywhere now!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I have an old Lyman #454424 four-cavity mould. As-cast diameter of the 260 grain flatnose (wheelweight alloy, 11-13 BHN) bullet are
around .456"-.457". I run these through a .461" .45-70 bullet die in a SAECO sizer/ lubricator so that the bullets are lubricated only, not sized.

One can experiment with different diameters and alloy hardness and hope for obturation with undersized bullets, but I've found initial good bullet fit (usually on the tight side) works sooner and better. With soft, medium, or hard .452" or .454" bullets, I never really got passable accuracy with the oversized S&W cylinder throats.

I used a popular Unique load for years in my 25-5s; good accurate load, but I've recently gone to a max. load of HS-6 for about the same velocity as the Unique load but with even better accuracy. I don't use hot loads in a 25-5 and certainly wouldn't recommend using oversize bullets for such loads in any .45 Colt with cylinder throats of proper diameter.

I'm considering having the cylinder redone by Bowen once I get a new non-recessed Model 29 cylinder from Brownells. Currently, they're on backorder. That will resolve all of these issues and allow me to use the ammo I have already, rather than launch into an endless series of experiments with various bullets and loads.

Keith

I have a 25-5 with .458 throats.
In looking on line for a 44 cylinder to bore out I stumbled across a 625 cylinder at Cylinder and Slide. The tech there said the throats are .452 so I sent in the revolver for them to fit to the cylinder.
$100 for the cylinder and another $100 to fit. I thought that sounded like a cheap fix and I will still have the original cylinder if I ever want to sell it.
The tech said they have a few more 625 cylinders on hand.
Greg

Thanks for the tip. I have a 625-5 where those cylinders I think came from and it is a tack driver. But since I have a 629 cylinder already I'm not going to take that approach. I don't like the Pinto look and I've decided not to hard chrome or Metaloy the gun. It's too beautiful in its current blue finish. I will call them tomorrow however.
Keith

No offense intended, but to really evaluate one load against another, the target must be moved out to 50 yards. In my younger days, I could shoot six rounds at 15 yards from a two handed, standing, unsupported position, double-action and have all rounds touching. If one really needs to see what the accuracy capability of ammo is, 50 yards will show the difference. If one doesn't want or need that kind of accuracy, just load your ammo, shoot and have fun, any safe load and decent bullet will suffice.

some of you just may be excited on what I found out.

Based on gmurdaugh's recommendation I reached out to Cylinder and Slide (C&S) to see if they had any 625 cylinders left. They do not. But we discussed what could be done and they sent me a very nice quote for modifying a 629 cylinder and installing it, then plating the gun in hard chrome to make it all look the same. Not my first choice, I do prefer blue, but if stainless was the only solution for the cylinder I was at least going to consider it. Bottom line: C&S didn't recommend hard chroming stainless, so that approach was out. But in the quote C&S stated that since S&W was making the Model 25 in 45 Colt (their Classic series), they more than likely had cylinders.

I called S&W Customer Service and was told, yes indeed they do have new 45 Colt cylinders, but they would not fit old guns because of some sort of technical issue. I whined mightily at the state of the world and the gentleman at Customer Service said "Wait, let me check to see if I'm not leading you astray." On the line came a gentleman named Joe. He stated flatly that they indeed had the cylinders and indeed they could be installed. We chatted a bit about the details, such as the finish not matching exactly, maybe having to set the barrel back to get the right B/C gap, etc., but in the end I told him I'd be shipping my gun to him ASAP. This I plan to do tomorrow.

As part of the work I plan to have the Performance Center do their Master Revolver Action package, chamfer the rear of the barrel shank, and a few other odds and ends. Joe said the turnaround for this type of work was 4-6 months but that is half the time Bowen or C&S would take and a whole lot less expensive.

All in all, a good day.

Keith

Keep us informed, please. Your 50 yard testing is the right thing to do. Lots of guns and loads "fall apart" when they get past 20 or 25 yards. I won't try to/can't explain it but have seen it happen too many times.

I think putting a good cylinder in your gun is really your only option if you want to shoot anything other than the traditional .45 Colt swaged hollow-base bullet. Hope the work at S&W turns out well for you.

Just received my Sales Quotation from S&W with regards to the Performance Center installing a new 45 Colt cylinder on my 25-5. The cost breakdown is as follows:

a. Performance Center (PC) Estimate and Range Test - $45
b. Replacement 45 Colt Cylinder - $92
c. PC Master Action Job - $87
d. PC Labor - $45
e. Return Shipping - $13
f. Total - $282

This work includes chamfering the rear of the barrel to remove any sharp edge, and installing a new rear sight blade.

This cost was so low that sending it to Bowen for a custom solution was just not realistic.

The one thing they refused to do was mill off the front sight (.210") and install a pinned in front sight .255" tall. I'll have to have my gunsmith here do that. After range testing to verify the sights are in fact set up the right way, and to insure the gun is functioning as I want in terms of both accuracy and reliability, I'll send it back to S&W to be refinished.

The turn around for this initial work will be 4-6 weeks, but refinishing will take a bit longer I think.

Keith

Just notified that S&W is ready to ship my 25-5 back to me having completed all the repairs listed in the post above. After I get it back I'll do a back to back comparison between it and my 625-6 Mountain Gun, also in 45 Colt. Once satisfied it's performing as I want, I'll have my gunsmith install the replacement front sight and then do a final sight calibration. Once totally satisfied, back to S&W it goes to be reblued. It's been a long process, but hopefully the end result will be worth the wait.

Keith

It's a shame that you had to go through all this trouble and expense (not to mention mental anguish) just to make the gun the way it should have been when shipped. This business with the 25s and bad cylinders is inexcusable. I really hope you have the revolver you want after the expense.

Two years ago I saw a pinned 25-5 at a local show. Had I known I would see one I would have brought a bullet to check the chambers. I bagged it hoping I would get lucky and it would shoot.

It does...



There's the gun.



PS: I don't even bother shooting a handgun at 50 yards. No matter how accurate the pistol is I get patterns rather groups.

More PS: For 30 years I have routinely loaded .454 lead bullets for my 45 Colt guns (even for the pistols bored .452) and they always worked well. But recently I have had a hard time finding bullets sized .454.

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No life story has happy end.

Keith:

Sounds like a great course of action.

How different is the finish on the cylinder? Could you take and post a photo of it?

I will when I get the gun next week.
Keith

I have a 25-5 in nickel that had .459-.460 throats and it did shoot ok with the older R-P 250 HB bullets but they have since quit making that bullet the newer ones are flat base and key holed through the revolver. I bought a 625 cylinder from Gun Parts and fitted it to the revolver and cut an 11 degree forcing cone and it shoots much better with no flyers or keyholes. I agree that the front sight is too low but I have yet to address that problem. I polished the cylinder and it matches the nickle finish pretty good.

And based on a visual inspection, a careful cleaning and making a few measurements, I couldn't be happier. Shoot it tomorrow, but that is for another report. I had two lead bullets, one measured .452" and one .453". Dropped them both into the chamber and the .452" barely hung on and the .453" was a gentle push fit. B/C gap was a consistent .007" with no end shake. Timing and come up were spot on. Single action feel and weight were about as good as I've seen and the double action pull was much improved, keeping in mind the factory strength Wolff Power Rib mainspring, and for a 15# rebound. The blue on the cylinder was not as deep as on the rest of the gun, but very close in both color and sheen. They even gently chamfered the rear end of the barrel. The cylinder was the newest version with long cylinder notches and black powder chamfer on the front edge. Here are the picks.






Keith