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08-30-2016, 07:34 PM
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Plum color on a Model 36 I received today...why?
First off, thank you for reading this and offering your comments.
I received a Model 36 no dash today that I bought on GB.
My first question is what would be the approximate manufacturing date? The serial # is 666xxx, although the first 6 is fainter and not as large as the other 5 numbers. Does that mean anything?
My second question is why does the barrel primarily, but also the cylinder and some other places on the gun, have a plum tint to them?
I have attached two pictures. The first gives a more realistic view of how the gun appears. The second shows the exaggerated contrast of the plum and the blue.
Absent any relatively definitive response, the story on this gun from me will be it was found recently in a cask of red wine with Jimmy Hoffa's body and only the gun survived
Thank you!
Last edited by Frank121; 08-30-2016 at 10:24 PM.
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08-30-2016, 07:44 PM
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It is my understanding that the plum color is affected by the temperature of the hot bluing, and the differential of the heat treat of the parts. Evidently the cylinder and barrel having been heat treated differently (probably higher heat treat) the the frame. It is not really that unusual, but not that often the extreme of your "enhanced" picture.
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08-30-2016, 07:46 PM
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I like it and am interested in the response to the color difference as I recently picked up a 28-2 with similar issues.....
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08-30-2016, 08:22 PM
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Barrel and cylinder are discolored. This could also be the result of heat imparted by firing the piece often.
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08-30-2016, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackshirt
Barrel and cylinder are discolored. This could also be the result of heat imparted by firing the piece often.
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IMHO, I don't think so. I have a pre Model 39 ca 1955 with plum colored parts. It has never been fired. I also have one or two other S&W guns with "plumming", and both are nearly new. And yes, I agree, it is not uncommon but I don't care for it.
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Last edited by loeman; 08-30-2016 at 08:52 PM.
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08-30-2016, 08:52 PM
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It is the plum color in other places than the barrel and cylinder that make me wonder if it was possibly reblued, plus having a blued trigger and grips where one is significantly darker than the other.
The enhanced pic was taken with flash, the other without.
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08-30-2016, 09:06 PM
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It has always been my understanding that the plum coloring comes from the bluing process and the differing hardness to the steel. Sometimes the barrel, sometimes the cylinder, sometimes both. In the case of the 28-2 it is because it was re-blued and the color difference is more noticeable with the higher polish to the metal. Originally the 28's didn't have a high polish to the metal before finishing.
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08-30-2016, 09:20 PM
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Here is a pistol that has never been fired - outside the factory - and it was all blue when I bought it in 1992...over the years the safety's got more and more "plum"....
Different types/kinds/etc., of metal is my guess!!!
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08-31-2016, 10:51 AM
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Road Rat, wow that's extreme! I recently bought an unissued Bulgarian Makarov that has a plum safety and hammer. Not uncommon in Makarovs. As others have noted, this condition can be a result of the bluing process (which makes me suspect a reblue on the OP's 36) or different type of steel in the parts in question. I see the plum color on older Ruger single actions with some regularity. Doesn't affect the function of the guns mentioned above. I also doubt that shooting the OP's revolver would have changed the color especially since 36s tend to be carried a lot and and shot little.
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08-31-2016, 11:48 AM
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I have sold a lot of the plum guns that were brand new.
Nothing to be concerned about. You got it as a carry gun anyway? Right.
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08-31-2016, 12:16 PM
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I believe there's a post in the forum[yup, a lot of posts here] that the plum is due to too much silicon content in the steel.
Maybe a metallugist will read this a jump in.
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08-31-2016, 06:58 PM
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Thanks, all. Any idea as to the manufacture date with a 666XXX serial number?
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08-31-2016, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikes
I like it and am interested in the response to the color difference as I recently picked up a 28-2 with similar issues.....
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Well,since Model 28s came with a matte finish,that's a reblue.
Overly hot chemicals or different metallurgy.
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08-31-2016, 08:39 PM
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To the OP: your Model 36 we probably made in the late '60's is about as close as I can get.
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08-31-2016, 08:54 PM
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Thank you very much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69HEMI-R/T
To the OP: your Model 36 we probably made in the late '60's is about as close as I can get.
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08-31-2016, 09:03 PM
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Very clean SB 36. I like.
As an engineer with my toes in welding and metallurgy, I know for welding carbon steel Si content needs to be below 0.05%. Why? I don't know. I would assume it would cause the metal to become brittle whilst air-cooling. And no one cares about the color of pipes, as long as they don't leak lol.
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08-31-2016, 09:21 PM
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A plum color can be an artifact of both the bluing process or the alloy of the metal, or both.
Bluing salts are added to distilled water to form a super saturated solution. When mixed to the proper proportions, the boiling point of the solution is 292 deg F, which is the ideal temperature for the hot bluing process.
The water in the solution turns to steam and boils off, which is a good thing as that's where the excess heat goes and it helps maintain the low boiling point temp. However, that also means you have to keep adding water to maintain the correct concentration of the bluing salts in the solution.
If you do not maintain the water level properly, the concentration of the bluing salts in the solution increases and so does the boiling point, with the result that the temperature of the solution rises, and you are bluing at too high a temperature and the gun will come out of the tanks with a plum color.
The alloy of the steel also matters. Higher concentration of chromium result in a plumb color. It's not uncommon for older vanadium chrome steel receivers and barrels on some rifles to have a plumb color. The best known and most egregious example of this is found on the Winchester Model 94 receivers from 1964 through 1981, which used a sinter forged steel alloy with a high chromium content.
These Model 94s cannot be blued with the normal Win Blu/Oxiblak process and as such they were either blued with Du-lite 3.0, (1964-1968), black chrome plated (1968-1972), or plated with iron and then blued with the regular Win Blu/Oxiblak process (1972-81).
If you try to re-blue one of the '64-'68 receivers using a normal bluing salt process, you'll get an even plumb color due to the high chromium content. That's also the case with the '68-'72 black chrome plated receivers as all the black chrome is usually polished off the entire outer surface of the receiver.
If you try to re-blue the '72-'81 iron plated receivers you'll get a mottled plum/blue result with the purple appearing where you polished away all the underlying iron plating, exposing the higher chromium content receiver metal, and a blue result in areas where the iron plating remained.
Your best bet for any of these is to polish it down to bright shiny metal, to remove any old blue or black chrome plating, and then blue it via the Du-lite 3.0 process.
The older Ruger revolvers also had some issues with plum coloring developing over time as Ruger uses a higher percentage of molybdenum in their frames, cylinders, and loading gate alloys.
This results in stronger steel, but these parts will sometimes develop a plum color several years after they were blued, probably due to slight variation in the alloy or in the bluing solution's temperature.
Ruger now uses the "S" additive in their bluing tanks (it's also available from Brownells) and it prevents the plum coloring. This change has made a plum colored Ruger something of a collector item, as some collectors seem to really like the plum colored blueing "flaw".
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I've seen this on a few Smith and Wessons, and in particular on some of the refurbished Victory models that were polished and blued after WWII, and I suspect that in those cases in particular it was a result of letting the concentration and temperature in the bluing solution get too high - but I would also not rule out some alloy difference in war time production.
When it's also an artifact of the alloy used in the part, it's something that may not show up for years, so it's hard to identify the firearms that you've screwed up unless you keep a very close eye on the concentration and temperature of the solution - and of course if you do that, it's not a problem.
----
One advantage of the current MIM processes and the older sinter forged processes is that the use of powdered metal to create the alloy results in very controllable and very consistent metal alloys - something that otherwise can be a bit more of a **** shoot and otherwise lies in the hands of the company supplying your steel billets or forgings. That's one reason you will rarely see plum color in newer production firearms.
Last edited by BB57; 08-31-2016 at 09:24 PM.
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08-31-2016, 10:36 PM
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A lot of mention of hot tanks,salts,and water levels. The time frame puts the OP's gun as being Carbona furnace blued.
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08-31-2016, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57
A plum color can be an artifact of both the bluing process or the alloy of the metal, or both.
Bluing salts are added to distilled water to form a super saturated solution. When mixed to the proper proportions, the boiling point of the solution is 292 deg F, which is the ideal temperature for the hot bluing process.
The water in the solution turns to steam and boils off, which is a good thing as that's where the excess heat goes and it helps maintain the low boiling point temp. However, that also means you have to keep adding water to maintain the correct concentration of the bluing salts in the solution.
If you do not maintain the water level properly, the concentration of the bluing salts in the solution increases and so does the boiling point, with the result that the temperature of the solution rises, and you are bluing at too high a temperature and the gun will come out of the tanks with a plum color.
The alloy of the steel also matters. Higher concentration of chromium result in a plumb color. It's not uncommon for older vanadium chrome steel receivers and barrels on some rifles to have a plumb color. The best known and most egregious example of this is found on the Winchester Model 94 receivers from 1964 through 1981, which used a sinter forged steel alloy with a high chromium content.
These Model 94s cannot be blued with the normal Win Blu/Oxiblak process and as such they were either blued with Du-lite 3.0, (1964-1968), black chrome plated (1968-1972), or plated with iron and then blued with the regular Win Blu/Oxiblak process (1972-81).
If you try to re-blue one of the '64-'68 receivers using a normal bluing salt process, you'll get an even plumb color due to the high chromium content. That's also the case with the '68-'72 black chrome plated receivers as all the black chrome is usually polished off the entire outer surface of the receiver.
If you try to re-blue the '72-'81 iron plated receivers you'll get a mottled plum/blue result with the purple appearing where you polished away all the underlying iron plating, exposing the higher chromium content receiver metal, and a blue result in areas where the iron plating remained.
Your best bet for any of these is to polish it down to bright shiny metal, to remove any old blue or black chrome plating, and then blue it via the Du-lite 3.0 process.
The older Ruger revolvers also had some issues with plum coloring developing over time as Ruger uses a higher percentage of molybdenum in their frames, cylinders, and loading gate alloys.
This results in stronger steel, but these parts will sometimes develop a plum color several years after they were blued, probably due to slight variation in the alloy or in the bluing solution's temperature.
Ruger now uses the "S" additive in their bluing tanks (it's also available from Brownells) and it prevents the plum coloring. This change has made a plum colored Ruger something of a collector item, as some collectors seem to really like the plum colored blueing "flaw".
---
I've seen this on a few Smith and Wessons, and in particular on some of the refurbished Victory models that were polished and blued after WWII, and I suspect that in those cases in particular it was a result of letting the concentration and temperature in the bluing solution get too high - but I would also not rule out some alloy difference in war time production.
When it's also an artifact of the alloy used in the part, it's something that may not show up for years, so it's hard to identify the firearms that you've screwed up unless you keep a very close eye on the concentration and temperature of the solution - and of course if you do that, it's not a problem.
----
One advantage of the current MIM processes and the older sinter forged processes is that the use of powdered metal to create the alloy results in very controllable and very consistent metal alloys - something that otherwise can be a bit more of a **** shoot and otherwise lies in the hands of the company supplying your steel billets or forgings. That's one reason you will rarely see plum color in newer production firearms.
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DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!!!
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09-01-2016, 01:40 AM
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Ruger #1single shot rifles can be found with plumbish receivers and finger levers.I have a colt trooper MKIII that shows the plum color on the cylinder.
Frank
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