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Old 01-01-2017, 11:24 AM
Cred's Cariad Cred's Cariad is offline
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28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #? 28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #? 28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #? 28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #? 28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #?  
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Default 28-2 "S code" 5 digit serial #?

I traded for this 28-2 yesterday.

A 4" 28 has been on my List for a while now.

Obviously it needs some TLC in terms of finish, and that will happen soon...but I'm going to carry this anyway and shoot it -- a lot.

On the bottom of the grip it has the #239xx, and has the same number on the grip frame. Is that the serial #?
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:51 AM
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Yes sir, it sure is. But if it's a 28-2 it should have another X (S239XXX), and it would be 1964-1965 ish.
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Old 01-01-2017, 11:57 AM
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Are you sure your not missing a digit ?
Or that it is an N pre fix gun ?
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:03 PM
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Looks like it had a neglectful owner along the way or a bad experience.

Under the barrel to frame yoke cut out I can see the S and it looks like a molested Number. On a model gun this should match the butt number.

I don't think there are any 5 digit 28-2 Highway Patrolmen. I have an earlier "pre" model from around 1955 that has serial number S 1324xx a 6 digit number. I would clean up the buttt well and check for 6 digits after the S
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Old 01-01-2017, 12:57 PM
Cred's Cariad Cred's Cariad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
Under the barrel to frame yoke cut out I can see the S and it looks like a molested Number. On a model gun this should match the butt number.
Agreed.

I guess the question is what does the 23939 represent? The # appears in three spots... butt, grip frame, and on the inside of the side plate.
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cred's Cariad View Post
Agreed.

I guess the question is what does the 23939 represent? The # appears in three spots... butt, grip frame, and on the inside of the side plate.
Well it is certainly stamped on the butt where the serial number belongs. I would venture a guess someone has restamped the serial number and used assembly numbers such as the one on the sideplate. Probably in error? I wonder what has been scratched out on the frame? Is there an assembly number on the yoke that matches this number also?
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:32 PM
Cred's Cariad Cred's Cariad is offline
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That's a roger on the yoke, 23939.
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedlate View Post
Well it is certainly stamped on the butt where the serial number belongs. I would venture a guess someone has restamped the serial number and used assembly numbers such as the one on the sideplate. Probably in error? I wonder what has been scratched out on the frame? Is there an assembly number on the yoke that matches this number also?
Ed
I agree with nedlate's observations above . . . the number stamped on the butt was not put there by the factory nor is it the correct serial number for a 28-2. The number 23939 does appear to be its assembly number and served during assembly to match up the three fitted pieces . . . it is generally placed on the left side of frame, back side of the side plate, and the yoke (the arm that swings).

I too am curious what number is scratched out on the frame . . . often times the true serial number is placed there when the s/n on the butt is damaged.

Look on the under side of the extractor star and see if the true s/n is still there.

Russ

Last edited by linde; 01-01-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:57 PM
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What a darn shame. Tough lesson to learn. Have to look at the butt and be educated. What to do, I dont know. It is definitely a liability. Would I chance it? No. What next? Best
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Old 01-01-2017, 01:59 PM
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There are provisions in the regs that allow for renumbered a gun if the serial numbers have been removed or defaced. My guess is that is what happened with your gun.

I sure wish your gun could talk, it sure has had an interesting Life! Let us know if you find out more!
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:36 PM
Cred's Cariad Cred's Cariad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linde View Post
Look on the under side of the extractor star and see if the true s/n is still there.
Teamwork! Thanks! The true serial # appears to be 3329**
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cred's Cariad View Post
Teamwork! Thanks! The true serial # appears to be 3329**
Close . . . the "S" prefix . . . which faintly appears on the yoke cutout and may or may not appear on the extractor . . . is an integral part of the serial number.

That would make the true s/n S3329XX . . . late in the S-prefix series circa 1969

Now the obvious question . . . why was the official s/n on the butt of the grip frame changed to the assembly number?

Good show,

Russ

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Old 01-01-2017, 03:48 PM
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Welcome to the Forum.

The bad news is that with that altered serial number, the revolver is illegal under Federal and most state laws as well.
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Old 01-01-2017, 04:28 PM
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Looks like it might be a good shooter. Here is a 1962 Highway Patrolman 28-2.



it is a good shooter.
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Old 01-01-2017, 04:54 PM
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With the serial number obliterated from the butt, the only legal SN, the gun is contraband. Being found in possession of this you could be charged with a federal felony, and these are nothing to joke about! An obliterated SN usually the indicates the gun is either stolen or has been used in a crime. Can you think of any legitimate reason for this? There isn't any!

Attempt to get whatever you traded for it back and this gun back where it came from immediately. Failing this contact the local ATF Office having jurisdiction over your area. They will probably seize the gun and want to know where you got it. Whatever you lose on the gun is far less than even bail will be if you are arrested for possessing this gun, not to mention lawyers fees and fines or prison time which could be assessed to you. Best to be pro-active and contact them first.
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Old 01-01-2017, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
With the serial number obliterated from the butt, the only legal SN, the gun is contraband . . .
Just for clarification, it's my understanding the BATF regulation requires the s/n be somewhere on the frame . . . not necessarily on the butt.
Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) add that “a licensed manufacturer … must legibly identify each firearm manufactured … [b]y engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing … an individual serial number” on the frame or receiver, and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer’s name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel. Regulations further require the serial number to be at a minimum depth and print size, and the
additional information to be at a minimum depth. Additionally, the serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and not duplicate any serial number placed by that manufacturer on any other firearm.
Some models (like the Regulation Police) have the s/n stamped on the front grip strap rather than the butt. The S&W factory has been known to re-stamp the s/n on the left side of the grip frame when drilling through the butt s/n to install a lanyard ring on a finished firearm. And I would argue that a legible s/n in the yoke cutout of the frame would also qualify as being "on the frame or receiver".

Unfortunately in this case the legible s/n on the butt is obviously incorrect . . . the s/n in the yoke cutout of the frame has been obliterated . . . what may have been a s/n on the left side of the grip frame has also been obliterated . . . and the s/n under the extractor (even if correct) doesn't count for BATF purposes since it's not "on the frame".

I do agree returning it to the seller is step #1. If the seller is a licensed dealer and balks at accepting the return, let him/her know your next step is to contact BATF and report your findings as well as the source of the firearm.

Good luck,

Russ
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Old 01-01-2017, 06:32 PM
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You know, we have encountered this before, And people refer to provisions
by BATFE. But there has never been a walk thru of the process or outcome.
How about an outcome after walking into the BATFE office with the gun.
Aint going to be me, that thing is going in the Bay.
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Old 01-01-2017, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Welcome to the Forum.

The bad news is that with that altered serial number, the revolver is illegal under Federal and most state laws as well.
That not entirely true. The rightful owner can apply for, and shall receive from the ATF, a new serial number for a gun with an obliterated serial number when a gun gets out of evidence jail and returned to the rightful owner.
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Old 01-03-2017, 02:11 PM
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Is there a serial number under the barrel on the flat? Secondly, is there a serial number on the yoke that is only visible by shinning a light through one of the chambers when lined up with the yoke.

The problem with quoting chapter and verse from the BATF regulations or any other source is that it doesn't always give the full picture. You may or may not comply with section XX in paragraph YY but what about section AA on page BB?????

Interpreting the law is the job for lawyers and they don't always get it right.

Also, if one looks at the section of the rule shown, the last line says that the serial number can not be one used on any other gun manufactured by that maker. Did S&W ever number another gun with 23939????

Now, to play devils advocate to those running for cover and wanting to throw the gun in the river, how many times in your lifetime have you been stopped by the police, the BATF, the National Guard, the Army, Navy, Marines or your local librarian and asked to see the serial number on the butt of your gun????

And even if that did happen, would they not think that the butt number was the real serial number??? Only if 23939 comes up as a stolen gun or a murder weapon, what are the odds that the caliber would be the same???

So, all in all, I think we are making mountains out of mole hills.
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Old 01-03-2017, 02:30 PM
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A number of years ago, a local gunsmith told me of a time that he took in a revolver for repair which he later noticed that the serial number had been filed off. He called ATF and asked for advice. The end result was that they assigned a new number which he had to stamp on the gun's frame.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:09 PM
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Hello Mr. davis, as a gun smith with an FFL for many years, you were required to record the gun for repair if it it spent the night in the shop.
Any same day repair did not require it. As a competent FFL holder, the first thing you did was verify the Sn. As a dealer and buyer you have a duty to yourself to verify a Sn. I find these Threads of Sns. that have been altered as totally irresponsible. And ridiculous. Thats where I stand. If you get one you are stupid and should not be buying guns. Hummels and Beanie Babies are wide open. Stay out of the Big Boy stuff. Best.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmborkovic View Post
Hello Mr. davis, as a gun smith with an FFL for many years, you were required to record the gun for repair if it it spent the night in the shop.
Any same day repair did not require it. As a competent FFL holder, the first thing you did was verify the Sn. As a dealer and buyer you have a duty to yourself to verify a Sn. I find these Threads of Sns. that have been altered as totally irresponsible. And ridiculous. Thats where I stand. If you get one you are stupid and should not be buying guns. Hummels and Beanie Babies are wide open. Stay out of the Big Boy stuff. Best.
Uh, jdavis was telling us about what a gunsmith he knew did, not what HE did.

"Did S&W ever number another gun with 23939????"

Yes, you can find a .38 M&P with that serial number, as well as a .32 Long Hand Ejector with the same number.
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:52 PM
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blue loss looks like blood staining to me, I suspect this gun would have quite the story to tell if it could
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Old 01-03-2017, 03:59 PM
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Hello Muley. I know what he said, I can read and understand.Of course there are S&Ws with the same Sns. But at at least you have a factory
stamped gun. Heats off, right? I believe that is why procedures were changed in 1968. Im attempting to convey the fact that buying guns can be a challenging hobby, Agree? As all ways , no insults intended . But there is no need to get stuck with a bogus gun. Be smart and take your time. Best
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Old 01-03-2017, 04:42 PM
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The OP says:

"I traded for this 28-2 yesterday."

He doesn't say he traded for it with an FFL license holder. The gun has a serial number, even if it isn't a serial number that makes S&W purists happy.

There could be, and probably is, a good reason for the odd number. Seems like there was another thread a few days ago about a gun with a weird number, and everyone went off into the usual the-feds-will-get-you-better-get-rid-of-it panic mode.

I don't see any need for that here. The OP has the gun, wherever he got it. It may have been severely damaged. It's still damaged, finish-wise. The damage (possibly fire and water damage?) could be the reason for the new number.

Stop trotting out the BATFE Boogieman, trying to scare the guy into getting rid of his gun.
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Old 01-03-2017, 04:54 PM
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Well, as usual, the point is lost.
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:29 PM
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Mike, I think what folks are saying is that the gun does have a serial number on the butt. How many folks off this forum would know that that is not the real serial number.

I have purchased guns from FFL dealers that listed the yoke assembly number as the serial number and I had to correct them. These folks do this for a living.

My point was that in 66 years on this ball of mud I have transported, shot and hunted for about 2/3 of that time frame and have NEVER been stopped and had the serial number of my gun checked by a law enforcement officer at any level and have never even seen a game warden while hunting or fishing or asked to see any of my many licenses.

Yes, I believe in being cautious, but sometimes it sounds like chicken little screaming that the sky is falling.
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Old 01-03-2017, 09:41 PM
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Just a couple random thoughts. Not telling anyone what to do or making judgements. I personally don't want a gun with any serial number problems.

What % current Leos have even held or shot a model 28-2?

How many know the correct method that older S&W were stamped?

How does anyone know it wasn't re stamped at some point by a gunsmith when that was still allowed?

I came across a K frame fixed sight 32 that had a punched out serial number and another stamped on grip frame at a pawn shop. Shop owner said it came from Sherriffs office and had been done by them for some reason. I walked away for a couple reasons, possible hassle (even if remote) of owning a remarked serial number gun even if legal, resale on such a gun would suck even if legal. Plus, just to look of the punched out numbers just turned me off.

Even if you have a legally restamped gun are you supposed to have a stack of documentation? Where does it say in the regulations that such documentation would be required after re stamping?

Never had anyone check my guns serial number, hunting, stopped by LEO while driving with guns in the car, at range even while competing in events with LEOs. But, then this is Montana and guns don't have seem to get much attention from LEOs.

There was someone posting on here a while back who had a gun with a messed up serial number who knew the local sheriff and sheriff was going to try to work it out with BATF. I wish he would give an update.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:08 PM
Fishinfool Fishinfool is offline
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Since the OP , as stated in an earlier post, now knows the correct serial number.... My thought is the easiest way around the whole question would be to buff off the number on the butt, and have the correct number re-stamped. Done deal. The chance he will get jammed up with the gun as stamped is slim, but why risk it?

My experience with serial numbers - Back when I was 16, I was driving home from duck hunting down in the Lordship marshes in CT with a Mossberg 500 pump laying on the back seat of the car. Got stopped for a loud muffler, and ended up sitting in the Bridgeport PD station for about half an hour, as serial number "500" was a "stolen gun". Finally a more intelligent officer came into the equation, who knew it was a model number, and that these pre-1968 guns did not have serial numbers.

As a LEO, seen lots of guys trying to run assembly numbers in the NCIC system for stolen checks / evidence documentation. Have had FFL dealers do the same on sales paperwork.

Larry

Last edited by Fishinfool; 01-03-2017 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:10 PM
Cred's Cariad Cred's Cariad is offline
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This certainly has been interesting.

A lot of lessons learned here, as this was my first foray into S&W revolvers.

The gentleman I traded with is a retired LEO (I realize that is not the end all-be all) but, I believe him to be to be of quality character.

In communicating with this gentleman with since I started this thread, he relayed to me the story of how he came into possession of the HP.

He bought it at a gun shop, paperwork and such was filled out.

I have every intention of requesting a history letter from Roy Jinks *corrected from Jenks* (per the serial # on the extractor star) and I will include the assembly numbers as well. Not that this information sheds any kind of light as to its post-assembly life, but it is neat to have.

Cheers.

Last edited by Cred's Cariad; 01-04-2017 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 01-03-2017, 11:12 PM
viceunit viceunit is offline
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Very interesting thread. I wonder about:

1) In order to completely obliterate the original butt serial number would one have to grind off enough metal to the point that magna grips would be a little proud of the butt frame? I know it would be easy to sand down stocks to match, but would an unmolested pair of stocks show that the butt frame has been shortened a fraction?

2) I realize number stamps may be common, but every time I look at the photo of the numbers, to my eye they look like the factory font style. They are cleanly stamped, no over-stamping (like would happen if I did it!).

Curious to learn the resolution of this one. There is always something to learn here.
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ga Johnny View Post
blue loss looks like blood staining to me, I suspect this gun would have quite the story to tell if it could
'Zactly!

I was thinking the same thing.

Questionable S/N, possible blood.

Nothing to see here citizen... move along...

I'd make a move to get it back to the seller or seek legal advice for legitimizing it.
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
I have every intention of requesting a history letter from Jenks
Not sure how much you will learn about your 28-2 other than when, where and who it shipped to.

Just an FYI, it is Roy Jinks not "JENKS"

Quote:
I'd make a move to get it back to the seller or seek legal advice for legitimizing it
I'd make a move to the range and shoot it.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:48 AM
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The first thing I would do is take the gun and the real serial number to a LEO and have it run in NCIC to see if it is, in fact, stolen or otherwise wanted. If it gets a legitimate hit, the officer will seize it for return to the originating agency. If it comes up clean, neatly restamp the proper SN on the butt. Problem solved. It is not illegal to restamp the correct serial number on a firearm. It is only illegal to obliterate or change the original serial number.
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Old 01-06-2017, 07:47 PM
rgm36 rgm36 is offline
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Good luck with taking a "possible" stolen gun, or worse yet, one used in a crime to a LEO and having it checked. If it comes up as stolen or used in a crime, you'll be hauled in asked an AWFUL LOT of questions!

The first question would be, "Where did you get this?"
The second question might be, "Where were you on the night of....?"

That gun might have gone missing from the evidence room!

I'd sell off the parts and throw the frame in the river if you cant return it to the guy that stuck you with it.

Taking a "suspect" gun to the law is the LAST thing I'd do!!!!!

Sorry that you had to learn this the hard way - it happened to me once too, but I got wise fast after that one.

Last edited by rgm36; 01-06-2017 at 07:54 PM.
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