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View Poll Results: Better EDC choice
Model 60 Chiefs Special P&R or non 95 84.82%
Walther PPK 17 15.18%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 03-19-2017, 03:05 PM
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Default Model 60 VS Walther ppk

This should be the right forum for this moderators please move if not.

Ok just looking for an overall opinion from the board on these two classics.I know the .38 special has the edge over the .380 acp.And the walther has another round capacity over the model 60.But giving a choice what is the overall winner,if that is even possible
The scenario would be year long concealment carry.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:10 PM
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If it's between those two,the PPK. Just a better vest gun in my opinion.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:15 PM
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I prefer revolvers, IMO they just seem more reliable. At the same time you would need to make sure the hammer doesn't get hung up. I suppose it really does just come down to personal preference.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:30 PM
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While I am a revolver person I do own a PPK which I do like. But I still would take my Smith 36 over that!
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:35 PM
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Not sure on how much of an edge the 38 has out of a short barrel

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Old 03-19-2017, 03:44 PM
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I have a ppk. I had a smith to smooth the action to function reliably. Also
Walther Bite will get you unless you smooth the bottom end edge of the slide.


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Old 03-19-2017, 04:15 PM
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The 60s that are P'd aren't R'd. Did that make sense ?
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:25 PM
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Own two PPK/S (380 & 22lr) and five J frames in 38spl.
Trigger on the revolvers is much better and revolvers are 100% reliable.
Double action trigger on PPK/S is very heavy and do have stove pipes on occasion. Between the two I choose the J frame. In fact I don't even own a holster of the PPK/S.
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Old 03-19-2017, 04:31 PM
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Don't have a PPK, (but do have a 637.)Class all the way with a PP.



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Old 03-19-2017, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowriderfxr View Post
The 60s that are P'd aren't R'd. Did that make sense ?
I know that ,but I'm so used to saying P&R and couldn't edit my poll after I posted it.

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Old 03-19-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arik View Post
Not sure on how much of an edge the 38 has out of a short barrel
Not much, if any - it really depends on the loads involved.

The .380 ACP takes a significant hit in a short barrel, but you get get FBI minimum penetration and expansion with 90 gr XTPs in the 3.5" PPK or PPK/S barrel.

The .38 Special and .38 +P loads however also take a serious hit in a short barrel. It's not uncommon to lose 150-200 fps in a 1 7/8" barrel compared to a 4" barrel, and the +P load ends up being needed to elevate 1 7/8 to 2 1/8" snub nose performance to acceptable levels.

If you look at data on actual shoots, the best performing .380 ACP loads outperform all the standard pressure .38 loads in a 2" barrel, while the best of the +P .38 loads in a 2" snub nose are on par with the .380 ACP in a 3.5" PPK/S or 3.9" PP length barrel.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:33 PM
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I've carried PP's and PPK/S pistols as well as 1 7/8" 2 1/8" and 3" J and J Magnum frame revolvers.




I've found both to be equally concealable and comfortable to carry in an IWB holster, but the PP series pistols have the edge if you need to use a shoulder holster.

The PP series pistols have a DA trigger that is around 12 pounds, but the SA pull is nice, and once you master a PP series pistol it is very accurate for a pocket sized pistol. The PP series can put lead on target frightfully fast in .32 ACP, but the greater recoil of the .380 ACP tends to slow down the follow up shots slightly.

It is still however better able to score more hits in a fixed amount time than a J frame .38 or .38 +P, PP series reloads are easier to carry concealed and are faster to load, even if you are well practiced with a speed loader.

And, you get 6+1 in the PPK, and 7+1 in the PP and PPK/S pistols, compared to just 5 in the J frame.

Consequently, I tend to give the nod to the PP series pistols in terms of effectiveness, but I don't feel under gunned with a J-frame either.

In that regard, a 3" J frame is just as concealable and comfortable to carry IWB as a 1 7/8" J frame and the longer barrel gives a .38+P load a decisive edge over the .380 ACP.

However, if you step up to the 6 shot K frame .357 Mag with a 2 1/2" or 3" barrel, like the Model 13, Model 65 or Model 66, you'll have a revolver that is easier to shoot accurately and can handle .357 Mag with reasonable comfort.
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:36 PM
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I looked hard at a PPK/S before going with a Model 60. I did not like the trigger on the PPK, so I got a Model 60 3". I put new trigger springs in the Model 60 and the trigger is now very nice.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:07 AM
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The PP dates from 1929 and the PPK from 1931. As such they were innovative designs incorporating the first practical DA, de-cocker equipped operating system on a pistol.

The heavy DA trigger pull is an artifact of the geometry and the resulting leverage available and their isn't anything that can be done to reduce it.

However, it's not unmanageable by any means, and in fact I owe a lot to the PP series pistols as once a shooter develops the grip and trigger finger to manage its 12 pound or so DA trigger, your DA shooting will be awesome on any revolver with a lighter trigger.

In the extreme, if you want to develop a new perspective on triggers, get an 1895 Nagant. It has what is without doubt the heaviest, grittiest, hardest to control DA trigger ever produced. Once you master it, everything else is a walk in the park.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:10 AM
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Well, I have carried both types. Both guns were purchased in the 70s so I guess they should be considered in the oldie but goodie class. Actually I have both the Walther and the Indian Arms (Stainless steel clone of the Walther from the early 70s) and am very comfortable with both.

Found the Walther and Indian a bit better when carried in a ankle holster. As for me I rate the 60 with 2'' barrel and the .380 about equal in performance. As far as problems both of those .380 have been very dependable.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:30 AM
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While I like the feel and slimness of the PPK or the PPK/S, I find them heavy for what they offer, and never found one 100% reliable. It seems that it made no difference if it was an older German made, S&W, Manurhin or an Interarms, they all jammed, even with ball.
I would take the 60 all day long, stuffed with Buffalo Bore 158 grain LCWCHP +P's.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:42 AM
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Difficult decision...

Have owned both and didn't care for either one. And it isn't that I don't like S&W snubbies or Walthers it just that those two models don't so anything for me.

The 60: Don't have any use for the exposed hammer. Would much prefer a 640 or 649.

The PPK: The unlocked blowback action kicks in .380 and the grip is small.

But between the two I would take 60...and bob the hammer.

Bob
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:44 AM
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Have carried a PPK/S for a long time and will continue to do so. I take it to the range about every two months and have never, I repeat, never had a FTF with it. On the range, I shoot whatever ammo I have handy but my EDC ammo is Buffalo Bore. First round (in the chamber) and the top round in the clip are 90 gr JHP. The remaining rounds in the clip are 100 gr Hardcast.

Yes, the first round fired DA is a difficult trigger pull. However, all subsequent rounds are SA and extremely smooth.

Yes, the PPK/S is a bit heavy for a .380 but I'm so used to it I don't even notice. My body being on the "large" side I really like how slim the Walther is and I find it very comfortable to carry either IWB or OWB.

All that said, I do love my S&W revolvers.

Bob

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Old 03-20-2017, 09:46 AM
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The model 60 has a better trigger, better ammo selection, won't bite / cut top of your hand when firing, more accurate, lighter in weight, easy to adapt to a Crimson Trace grip and won't jam...just to name a few attributes.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
While I like the feel and slimness of the PPK or the PPK/S, I find them heavy for what they offer, and never found one 100% reliable. It seems that it made no difference if it was an older German made, S&W, Manurhin or an Interarms, they all jammed, even with ball.
I would take the 60 all day long, stuffed with Buffalo Bore 158 grain LCWCHP +P's.
I agree! Five years ago I traded straight up, with another forum member here, my SS Interarms PPK for a pristine M60 no dash. I think I got the better of the deal. For it's size, I found the PPK to be heavy. The design of the PP series has withstood the test of time, but now it seems a bit dated, with better offerings in the marketplace in 380ACP. Not to mention, I really don't like my pinky hanging off the end of the grip. I prefer the grip on the PPK/S better. At least with the M60, or any J frame for that matter you can change grip sizes and material easily.

Now, if you're talking new guns. The current M60 in either barrel length will bring 357magnum into the mix. That caliber outclasses the 380ACP in any form, but you're gonna know you've got a tiger by the tail when you shoot it.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:22 AM
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I'm prejudiced, the PPK/s I owned twisted in my grip worse than my Colt CLW .45. However, the best PPK I ever handled was 7.65 and didn't give me the same problem.
Geoff
Who prefers the M-38 or M-638 in stainless/alloy. ;->
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:22 AM
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Yes, the PPK is kind of heavy for its role as a small CCW now that the likes of the Glock 42 and its ilk have become the standard. But, before all of that, when the first stainless Interarms PPK became available I just had to have one. They looked like they were hewn out of a block of stainless billet. Around the same time I found a LH Bianchi suede horizontal shoulder holster that is very comfortable. If you are left-handed, finding one on a store rack for a gun you have is a must-buy. I can wear this thing all day. The gun practically jumps into my hand and the suede holster is silent.

Having said all that, the PPK is usually not my primary CCW, instead a 642. I am equally proficient with either, although I think the SB Gold Dots in the 642 may be more effective than the Gold Dots loaded in the PPK. Splitting hairs, maybe?
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:27 AM
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To add another dimension to the equation. Consider the 432PD, an airweight, 32 H&R Magnum, 6 shots, exceeds 1000 fps from the 1 7/8" barrel with a 100 gr bullet.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:27 PM
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I bought a PPK a decade ago. Found it fussy on ammo and totally unreliable for a carry. I got rid of it.
I have a couple Baby Chiefs that have never malfunctioned.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
Difficult decision...

Have owned both and didn't care for either one. And it isn't that I don't like S&W snubbies or Walthers it just that those two models don't so anything for me.

The 60: Don't have any use for the exposed hammer. Would much prefer a 640 or 649.

The PPK: The unlocked blowback action kicks in .380 and the grip is small.

But between the two I would take 60...and bob the hammer.

Bob
I agree, love the 60, and I added a NYPD DAO Bobbed hammer

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Old 03-20-2017, 03:21 PM
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Back when I was with the CSP, all the "cool troopers" carried PPK's as second guns, as they were dept. approved. I did for a while as well, in a boot holster, usually. Carried well, but it was never 100% reliable, even with HB, the most common loading back then. I have big hands, and didn't care for the fact I had to wear a glove during practice to avoid slide bite.

Eventually switched to a model 36 with the hammer bobbed, using the old FBI load. Figured it hit a little harder, and never failed to go bang when I pulled the trigger.

Larry

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Old 03-20-2017, 03:33 PM
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i know that this is a Smith & Wesson forum,but I thought the poll results would be closer then it is. Can anyone recommend the best SD offering today for the 380.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
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i know that this is a Smith & Wesson forum,but I thought the poll results would be closer then it is. Can anyone recommend the best SD offering today for the 380.
In my humble opinion, if size, weight, and reliability are of a concern - probably the only reason for carrying a .380 as apposed to something bigger with more juice, then its hard to beat the Ruger LCP. Mine has been ultra reliable, as have most I have heard of, and I don't think you can get a .380 in a smaller, lighter package.

Larry
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:40 PM
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Have owned and shot several of each. Never could get reliable feed on HP ammunition in any PPK or PPKS that I have owned. Never had a failure to feed or failure to fire with a S&W Model 60.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:46 PM
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A M60 is less weight than the PPK, MUCH MORE reliable, can fire better SD ammo, simple to operate, and is about the same size. I really see little to no advantage going with a PPK - unless you are trying out for a James Bond Flick - LOL
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
While I like the feel and slimness of the PPK or the PPK/S, I find them heavy for what they offer, and never found one 100% reliable. It seems that it made no difference if it was an older German made, S&W, Manurhin or an Interarms, they all jammed, even with ball.../
I own a pair of PP's in .32 ACP, a couple of PPK/S pistols in .380 ACP as well as a half dozen FEG AP and APK clones in both 7.65mm Browning and 9mm Kurz.

I've found all of them were reliable with ball rounds, all of the .380s were reliable with 102 gr Golden Saber and all but one of them were reliable with 90 gr XTPs. The .32s were also all relabel with ball, as well as both 60 gr silver tips and 60 gr XTPs.

In my experience, and please don't take this too critically, while you can come across the occasional PP, PPK or PPK/S that has feed issues, if someone encounters multiple PP series pistols with feed issues, the problem, is invariably the shooter. The PP series pistols do reward a firm grip, particularly in .380 ACP.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishinfool View Post
In my humble opinion, if size, weight, and reliability are of a concern - probably the only reason for carrying a .380 as apposed to something bigger with more juice, then its hard to beat the Ruger LCP. Mine has been ultra reliable, as have most I have heard of, and I don't think you can get a .380 in a smaller, lighter package.

Larry
That small, light package is also hindered by the short barrel as the .380 ACP takes a disproportionately large hit in sort barrel performance. Consequently, the 2.75" barrel marginalizes an already marginal caliber.

I do carry a Kimber Micro as a back up and it has the same 2.75" barrel, but if I'm shooting it, it's because 7 rounds of .357 Mag, or alternatively 13 rounds of 9mm Luger have not solved the problem, so I'm already in deep kimchi.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Laketime View Post
i know that this is a Smith & Wesson forum,but I thought the poll results would be closer then it is. Can anyone recommend the best SD offering today for the 380.
The only .380 ACP load that will achieve 12" performance and relabel expansion is one of a half dozen or so loads using the 90 gr XTP.

That however assumes a barrel length of about 3.5" and a velocity around 1000 fps. A 2.75" barrel will drop the velocity down into the 900 fps range and heavy denim penetration drops to about 40% (but that's 60% better than FMJ).

----

If you are not addicted to the 12" minimum penetration standard you have some other options.

Remington's 102 gr Golden Saber expands reliably and will penetrate about 10" and it's a good self defense choice based on actual shoots. The 90 gr Federal JHP and the Federal Hydra Shok also do well in actual shoots The CorBon 90 gr JHH also does well. In fact, any of the four are arguably just as effective.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:45 PM
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if you want a .380 I like the Sig P238. I don't have one, but the reviews are good and it can be carried condition one. $700.00 though.
I've shot one a lot with no issue.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:50 PM
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I'd stick with my 60-7. It will run any .38 ammo I feed it, I'm more familiar with it, and I prefer .38Spl over .380. The only PPK I have owned was a 1940 vintage model in .32ACP. It's a nice gun, but for serious work I'll take the Chiefs.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:02 PM
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I carried a SS PPK/s for 10 or 12 years, never had an issue with it, it was my bud. Retired it for carry in favor of a 638. Lighter with a bit more oomph but fewer rounds.

For the weight of the PPK, I can carry my 640-1 or one of my other steel framed J's, much more versatile.

$0.02
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:34 PM
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I'd go with the Model 60 for the trigger alone.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:44 PM
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I own and carried both as a BUG, I prefer the 60 for its simplicity and reliability.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:02 AM
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M60 or PPK/s /
For a J frame I have now only have M 49, M 638 and M640-1.
Only PPK type now is a FEG R61.
Don't like exposed J frame, seem to catch in pocket CC.
Don't feel under gun with any of them but the M640 does have the edge being a .357 Magnum.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:02 AM
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I own both of these guns and love them. However for carry I would take the 60. On occasion my PPKs has experienced a couple of stovepipes and one failure to extract. My PPKs gets a lot of attention at the range but reliability rules for concealed carry. As such, the 60 gets the job.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:08 AM
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You never said why these were the only choices. you could carry a 9mm such as the Glock 43 or the S&W Shield and have a more controllable weapon with more power. The block 42 in .380 might also be a better choice than the Walther. I just think there are other, better choices these days than either of the two mentioned. Just saying!
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:25 AM
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Ok me too. I have both and don't like to carry the PPK/s cause it's too pretty.
It shots great but it's LNIB Interarms so it lives in th safe. The model 60 3in probably could use a trigger job. I do also have a SIG P238 that shoots and carries well. Matter of preference I suppose but I thought the poll would be closer. Let's run the same poll on the Walther Forum! LOL!
btw where did those accents come from? Fat fingers!
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:49 AM
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Carried a 90s Interarms PPK/S for a while and though a good pistol it jammed a little to much. I carry a 1974 Colt Cobra now because when I pull the trigger it goes boom. I'll put Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot for short barrels 38+P over any 380 round out of the PPK. I vote for the revolver.

I did trade the PPK/S and a few $ for a real sweet, like new 2" 15-3.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal tom View Post
You never said why these were the only choices. you could carry a 9mm such as the Glock 43 or the S&W Shield and have a more controllable weapon with more power. The block 42 in .380 might also be a better choice than the Walther. I just think there are other, better choices these days than either of the two mentioned. Just saying!
Basically pitting these two classics up against one and other.There may be several better choices out there in today's market no doubt.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:50 PM
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An artcle by a German, in Guns and Ammo, noted that in German police records, the PP and PPK jammed an average of once in 50 rounds. I find that unacceptable.


I had a prewar PP that was very accurate, but jammed too often. I sold it and got a Beretta M-34 for that role. The Beretta was fully reliable and would easily stay on the chest area of a human target at 25 yards. Had the very hard trigger pull been better, it'd have shot a third better, I think.


Ayoob shot a number of pigs in a slaughter house, using an S&W .38 snub and a .380. The lead SWCHP Plus P .38 round was much more effective in head shots on those pigs.


I prefer the S&W M-60 and consider the M-60-7 the ultimate in the series. I think it should be the basic small revolver in a defensive battery. That said, I feel the M-60-4 with three-inch full lug barrel and target sights is the ultimate small trail .38.


I dislike hammerless revolvers, and just put my thumb on the hammer as I draw. Never a problem. If the gun is in a conventional belt holster, also never an issue.


I like being able to cock the hammer for longer range shots.

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Old 03-21-2017, 06:58 PM
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I chose the PPK.

While I do own a couple of J-frame .38s, these are the guns a carry the least. I've always had problems with the grip on these. Its just too small for my hands and I don't shoot them very well. Yeah, I can easily change the grips. But by the time I get a set of grips on the gun that give me proper control and allow me to shoot it well, I've lost all the advantage of its small size. I might as well be carrying a K-frame, which is what I actually do.
I very rarely pocket carry. Maybe a jacket pocket during cold weather once in a while, but absolutely never in my pants pocket. That might work fine for you folks wearing dress slacks or cargo shorts, but I normally wear jeans. For me pocket carry is uncomfortable, slow and awkward as Hell. Not to mention impossible from a seated position.

OTOH, the PPK is slim, flat fits my hand well, shoots great and carries like a dream.
I don't know where all these malfunctioning PPKs are coming from, but mine have been completely reliable.
For me, there's not even a choice to be made here.
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