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Old 03-20-2017, 10:37 AM
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I've read here and other places not to ever shoot 130 grain .357 magnum in a Model 19 revolver. I'd like to hand load some reduced velocity rounds with 125 gr bullets to about 850 fps out of a 4 inch barrel. Would that be safe to shoot in the Model 19? Near as I can figure, it would be about like shooting .38 special except from a full length case.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:16 AM
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That would not cause any problem. The problem with the "light bullet" was only with the hot magnum loads.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:37 AM
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Thanks. That's kinda what I thought, but I figured I'd check first.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:19 PM
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Mr_Flintstone
Just to be clear, the "problem" with magnum ammo using light bullets (110 gr. or 125 gr. for example) isn't really a "safety" matter. The issue is the possibility, with extensive use, of causing some failure at the breach end of the barrel due to what is essentially flame cutting at the forcing cone location. When this has happened, it has been the result of using thousands upon thousands of rounds of "hot" loads with the lighter bullets. If you mean to speak of the "safety" of the gun itself (that is, damage to the breach end of the barrel) then I suppose "safety" is a correct term. But if "safety" means the potential for harm to the shooter, it really isn't accurate. Frankly, occasional use of 125 gr. .357 Magnum ammunition in a Model 19 is no big deal. But in terms of your actual question, reduced loads in the magnum case is also no problem, as stated by H Richard.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:28 PM
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The "problem" seemed to be excessive gas cutting of the top strap.
I have read that when the cutting reached a certian depth , it stopped.
I'm thinking it's more of a mole hill made into a mountain problem.
But that's how the story went.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:49 PM
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Going that slow I use 2400 or Unique with a magnum primer in my 19s. I have seen 4227 loaded down not ignite with a standard primer. The Lee reload manual will point you in the right direction. It gives you the speed--bullet weight--and a wider powder choice for a safe load. I like 125 grain bullets but they group better out of my 19s at about 1000 fps. using a magnum case.

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Old 03-20-2017, 01:13 PM
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Going that slow I use 2400 or Unique with a magnum primer in my 19s. I have seen 4227 loaded down not ignite with a standard primer. The Lee reload manual will point you in the right direction. It gives you the speed--bullet weight--and a wider powder choice for a safe load. I like 125 grain bullets but they group better out of my 19s at about 1000 fps. using a magnum case.
I was going to use 4 grains of Titegroup @ about 850 fps. I may go up to 4.5 grains @ 980 fps
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:12 PM
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Thats basically a 38+p load
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:36 PM
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The issue is the possibility, with extensive use, of causing some failure at the breach end of the barrel due to what is essentially flame cutting at the forcing cone location. When this has happened, it has been the result of using thousands upon thousands of rounds of "hot" loads with the lighter bullets.
This is not the case. The problem also included cracked forcing cones and it occurred in many LE service revolvers with absolutely WERE NOT subject to the firing of "thousands upon thousands" of rounds.

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The "problem" seemed to be excessive gas cutting of the top strap.
The problem did not refer to gas cutting of the top strap but rather erosion and cracking of the barrel's forcing cone. It is not unusual to find to this day K-Frame .357 magnums with cracked forcing cones and there are no new factory replacement barrels.

Bruce
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:49 PM
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A 125 grain bullet at 850 isn't even a +P load. It's close to the max for regular 38 special and would do fine in a .357 case. Any model 19 in decent condition should be able to handle 10,000+ firings of a load like that without any noticable wear.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:55 AM
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Lets ask a more basic question. Why are you loading 357 brass to 38 special or 38+P loadings? Just load 38 special brass to 38 special loads.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:17 AM
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The problem also included cracked forcing cones
I stand corrected. That is actually what I meant. I just said it poorly.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:47 AM
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Lets ask a more basic question. Why are you loading 357 brass to 38 special or 38+P loadings? Just load 38 special brass to 38 special loads.
It's just less cleaning. When I shoot 38 special it leaves a ring in the cylinder that I have to scrub out with a brass brush, or it builds up and makes it hard to load .357. I just figured As long as it was as easy to load one as the, I'd just load some light .357.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:21 AM
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I was going to use 4 grains of Titegroup @ about 850 fps. I may go up to 4.5 grains @ 980 fps
Hodgdon lists 6.8 grains of Titegroup as a starting load for that bullet weight in a .357 Magnum. I would be concerned about going above or below published data. Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

If you use .38 Special cases, 4.3 grains Titegroup should get the velocity you desire. I tend to be very cautious in these matters, and prefer to only use published data from a trusted source rather than what "some guy on the internet" tells me.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:10 AM
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Hodgdon lists 6.8 grains of Titegroup as a starting load for that bullet weight in a .357 Magnum. I would be concerned about going above or below published data. Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

If you use .38 Special cases, 4.3 grains Titegroup should get the velocity you desire. I tend to be very cautious in these matters, and prefer to only use published data from a trusted source rather than what "some guy on the internet" tells me.
Really? "Some guy". I checked Hodgdonreloading.com . It gives 4.0-5.4 gr. Titegroup for LRNFP; which is the bullet I'll be using. The 6.8-7.5 is for XTP.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:47 PM
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I have seen 1, S&W 19 with cone cracked. No idea of round count
gun was PD trade in. However I have seen many other 357s with
cracked cones and I know they weren't hi count guns. All them
had been firing light bullet/ mag loads. This seems to occur more
in the bargan DAs.off brands. The single action guns don't seem
to suffer this. Ruger Blackhawks are cranked out with 110s and
I have never seen a cracked cone. Some bad throat erosion but
no cracks. I have seen cylinders blown and top strap warped, but
no cone damage. These guns have hi count with hot loads, owners are shooting a couple boxes a week at steel silos.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:05 PM
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Really? "Some guy". I checked Hodgdonreloading.com . It gives 4.0-5.4 gr. Titegroup for LRNFP; which is the bullet I'll be using. The 6.8-7.5 is for XTP.
No need to take offense. If you have published data for the load you want to use, there you go.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:11 PM
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No need to take offense. If you have published data for the load you want to use, there you go.
No offense taken. We're cool. I was originally a little miffed that the data you referred me to was the same data I was quoting, then I realized that it only shows one bullet design by default. You have to click the little + sign to see all the others. You had to expand the table to see the LRNFP.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:09 PM
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Why are you loading 357 brass to 38 special or 38+P loadings? Just load 38 special brass to 38 special loads.
Why screw around with .38 Special brass in a .357 Magnum revolver? At the time when .38 Special revolvers dominated the LE market, the shorter brass was much easier to get but now-not hardly. And this is in addition to the aforementioned additional cleaning concerns which using the short brass entails.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Bruce

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Old 03-21-2017, 06:17 PM
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"It's just less cleaning. When I shoot 38 special it leaves a ring in the cylinder that I have to scrub out with a brass brush, or it builds up and makes it hard to load .357. I just figured As long as it was as easy to load one as the, I'd just load some light .357. "

That seems to be conventional wisdom, but I have found it to be false. I shoot very little .357 Mag in my revolvers of that chambering, probably use 99% .38 Special. I always clean the chambers with a wire brush after use, never had the slightest problem with using .357 Mag ammunition, no rings, no residue. Could be true for an extreme high-volume shooter, and I am not in that category.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:09 PM
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No offense taken. We're cool. I was originally a little miffed that the data you referred me to was the same data I was quoting, then I realized that it only shows one bullet design by default. You have to click the little + sign to see all the others. You had to expand the table to see the LRNFP.
Yeah, you called it. I saw the first load and did not realize I had to open up the second load. Also, by default I assumed a jacketed bullet anyways. Live and learn.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:05 PM
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Lets ask a more basic question. Why are you loading 357 brass to 38 special or 38+P loadings? Just load 38 special brass to 38 special loads.
I load target to full mag in .357 cases to shoot in my 686. That avoids the crud ring that interferes with loading .357 after shooting .38 rounds.

I load target to +P in .38 cases for my .38 guns.

PS I have plenty of .357 brass and I have had difficulty loading .357 after shooting .38s in my gun. A brush would fix it easy, but I'm at the range and would rather just keep it clean and not worry about getting out the brush.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:27 PM
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Default Didn't the flat....

Didn't the flat that was machined into the bottom of the forcing cone contribute to the cracking problem?
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:23 AM
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Didn't the flat that was machined into the bottom of the forcing cone contribute to the cracking problem?
IMO it did but it could not be avoided in that frame size at the time. Also, the foreseen use of the guns as LE duty guns never contemplated heavy usage of full power magnum ammo, especially that loaded with bullets weighing less than 140 grains. The original concept for the .357 Combat Magnum was a K-Frame revolver for LEO's with full target options which fire .38 Special ammo for practice and full power .357 magnum ammo (158 grain bullets were standard at the time) for qualifying and duty carry.

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Old 03-23-2017, 08:27 AM
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... The original concept for the .357 Combat Magnum was a K-Frame revolver for LEO's with full target options which fire .38 Special ammo for practice and full power .357 magnum ammo (158 grain bullets were standard at the time) for qualifying and duty carry.
Was that truly the planning for the design or was that policy developed after the fact? The first handgun I ever bought was new Model 19. It's been a long time, but I know I read all the included documentation and I can't remember anything like that in print.

Not arguing, but it seems like if it says .357 Magnum on the barrel, there shouldn't be any caveats. If it can't handle magnums, mark the barrel .38 Special.

We are all familiar with how Ruger advertisements tried to characterize S&Ws as having marginal strength. S&W responded with the "thick hamburger" ad (see below). Now I will grant the ad shows an M686, but it nowhere says anything to the effect "Well, yeah, don't shoot too many .357 Magnums in a K-Frame." Quite the contrary, the wording of the ad doubles down on the claimed strength of ALL S&W revolvers.
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Old 03-23-2017, 07:19 PM
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Was that truly the planning for the design or was that policy developed after the fact?
Bill Jordan lobbied Smith & Wesson heavily for the creation of the Combat Magnum based on the criteria I previously mentioned. Besides the target options, he wanted a non-tapered barrel and shrouded ejector. The added weight helped reduce muzzle flip to some extent. It was not an "after the fact" idea or something the marketing folks at Smith dreamed up. At the time, the .38 Special M&P (pre-model 10) dominated the LE market. He wanted something lighter and handier than the 3 1/2" .357 Magnum (Pre-M27) or 4" Highway Patrolman (Pre-M28).

A couple of things in the 1960's exacerbated the situation and ultimately lead to the development of the L-Frame guns released in early 1980. The first was the popularity of the K-Frame .357's in the civilian market and the subsequent use of mostly magnum ammo and high round count of same in those guns. The second was the advent and subsequent popularity of extremely high velocity light bullet (110 & 125 grain) loads such as those originally developed and marketed by SuperVel.

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Old 03-23-2017, 10:56 PM
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Thanks for the update, Bruce. I knew that when the Combat Magnum (pre-19) was designed, the high velocity, light bullet .357 Magnum loads had not yet been introduced. I thought those loads were often blamed for the forcing cone cracking problem and therefore were the reason behind the suggested policy of using .38 Specials for practice and using .357M very sparingly.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:01 PM
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Didn't the flat that was machined into the bottom of the forcing cone contribute to the cracking problem?
Yes it did. That's where the barrel will usually crack, if it does at all. This is why the L frame was developed. it is just enough larger to eliminate the flat on the barrel.

I carried a M-19 from 1978 to 1983 (Department issue) and our duty load was the Federal .357 125gr JHP and it was hot. Allegedly 1450 fps out of a 4" barrel. Any way we were issued a new box every 3 months so the old ammo was shot off at quals. So about 200-250 rounds of the hot stuff per year. I switched departments in '83 and when I tuned in that 19 the only noticable wear was the start of some flame cutting. I did shoot a lot of hand loads out of that gun also but not near as hot as the federals.
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Old 03-27-2017, 04:35 AM
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You would be much better served using 158 grain bullets. POA = POI in most 4" tubes with 158's - NOT SO with lighter bullets.
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