Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-17-2017, 04:38 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default 44 special vs Magnum & aim

I went to the range with my new to me 29-2 today, shot about 20 rounds of 44 sp and 10 rounds of 44 mag. First time I've ever shot mag, and only the second time special. Wow, I understand why so many people consider the mag a punishing round to shoot. Ouch.
I was fascinated to notice that the specials grouped about 4"higher than the mag's at 10 yards. Even when I mixed them in one cylinder, and alternated. I got pretty similar groups to my Glock G26, maybe 3"or a little worse (I've only been shooting a few months, and have mediocre eye sight... Excuses, excuses). Anyway, anyone have any similar experience? I'd done a fair bit of dry firing, familiarizing myself with the gun, so I'm fairly sure my aim and trigger control weren't changing much. The 44 mag were a tighter group, maybe even 2.5". I realize this isn't bragging territory for an 8 3/8"barrel at 10 yards! You gotta start somewhere.
Another question re: grip. I'm still working it out, and mostly I'm struggling with thumb placement right now (I'm trying everything), but what ended my range session earlier, perhaps, than otherwise, was the trigger guard smashing back into the outside of my index knuckle. My finger was pretty beat up by the time I figured out what was going on. I was working hard to get my hand high in the grips for recoil control, but the trade off was that my index finger was sort of wedged between the grip and the trigger guard. When the gun smashed backwards with recoil, my finger got hit pretty hard (numbness an hour later), just on that knuckle.
Brilliant insight welcome

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-17-2017, 05:08 PM
moosedog moosedog is offline
SWCA Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,752
Likes: 2,343
Liked 4,382 Times in 1,240 Posts
Default

Just wondering if both loads had the same bullet weight?

To control recoil with a handgun, you need to have your strong hand positioned with the web of that hand high on the tang of the grip. I found factory target grips to be useless. On S&W N frames I use regular magna grips with a Tyler Grip Adapter. Everyone's hand is different.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 04-17-2017, 05:12 PM
Laketime's Avatar
Laketime Laketime is online now
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,722
Likes: 1,719
Liked 1,612 Times in 757 Posts
Default

On a model 29 I still prefer the football targets grips from the 1960's to 1970's era.This particular series of stocks has the narrowest throat area,allowing for a higher hold.Most people do not particularly care for factory stocks when shooting full power loads,but I do.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #4  
Old 04-17-2017, 05:39 PM
ExcitableBoy's Avatar
ExcitableBoy ExcitableBoy is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 262
Likes: 455
Liked 437 Times in 156 Posts
Default

Hard to diagnose without an "eyeballs on"...

GROUPS: Depends on bullet weight, composition, etc. No big deal.

GRIP: You can't be shy with a .44 mag. It must be a firm hold, but not a "death grip". Allow the curl at the top of the butt frame to seat into the web between thumb and forefinger in the most natural position. (With my medium-sized hands, I have to lock the tip of my thumb about half-way over the tip of my middle finger for a nice, positive grip. I'm not a fan of the "thumbs pointing forward" grip that seems to be en vogue, nowadays, as it gives me less contact and control.) I like to get the first joint of my trigger finger hooked right into the edge of the trigger for good contact and control.

ARM EXTENSION AND ANGLE: Especially with heavy magnums, I like ---and teach--- that a slightly-bent-at-the-elbow arm position ---with both one and two hand firing--- will help manage recoil better than a full, horizontally straight, arm extension. I allow some of the recoil to push the barrel upward a bit, instead of taking all of the force directly back in a straight line. Hand, wrist and arm, ideally, should align vertically as straight as possible to the shoulder. But that is not really physically possible, and we all have to make adjustments accordingly.

STANCE: Relax. Tightening up like a guitar string will cause erratic groups, bad habits and will fatigue you. Shoulders forward a bit... lean slightly to target, putting your reactive weight where it will do the most good. A slight bend at the waist, a medium-wide stance (whatever works best for you) with knees flexed. Settle in like a batter in the box at home plate, but do not go rigid. Move your feet to a comfortable position. Bring the gun up to get your sight picture and make adjustments that fit you. Practice dry until you think you have it, then start pulling the trigger fluidly and see what happens.

I shoot my M29 8 3/8" DX regularly and it is an absolute sweetheart to shoot with the Pachmayrs that came with the full kit, and I am not a Mongo-sized guy.

Have fun. I hope this gives you a little help.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 04-17-2017, 05:57 PM
k22fan k22fan is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,019
Likes: 2,765
Liked 2,697 Times in 1,343 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
[...] the specials grouped about 4"higher than the mag's [...] 8 3/8"barrel at 10 yards! [...]
That is only a little more than the difference that I got between reloads equivalent to factory loaded 246 grain .44 Specials and standard 240 grain Magnums with my first S&W .44 Magnum, an 8 3/8" Model 29-2. My groups were a foot apart vertically at 25 yards. The reason is that Special bullets are in the recoiling barrel approximately twice as long. The muzzle rises more before they exit. It varies with how you hold the revolver.

While they are not good looking, for me the rubber Hogue Mono-grips are the most comfortable on S&W .44 Magnums. They are only about $22 at full retail which is not to big a gamble. I often see used ones for sale for less.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:08 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
US Veteran
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 9,186
Likes: 19,129
Liked 5,855 Times in 2,496 Posts
Default

Welcome to the Forum.

For now, I would put the Magnum loads aside and use Special loads only. It takes a lot of practice to master the handgun and shooting a bunch of .44 Magnums will give you the mother of all flinches.
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Last edited by Muley Gil; 04-17-2017 at 06:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:27 PM
Ole Joe Clark's Avatar
Ole Joe Clark Ole Joe Clark is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Alabama
Posts: 804
Likes: 555
Liked 1,262 Times in 423 Posts
Default

K22fan gave you the reason the hotter 44 mag loads located higher on the target. The recoil on the special loads raised the barrel higher before the slower bullet exited the muzzle. That is one fine revolver.

Show us photos, I like to drool over them.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:33 PM
muddocktor's Avatar
muddocktor muddocktor is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 2,030
Likes: 3,367
Liked 2,366 Times in 976 Posts
Default

keithwins, 44 Mag is one cartridge that really benefits from reloading your own, if you don't already reload. Not only does it cut round cost roughly in half, it also gives you the ability to download 44 Mag cases to 44 Special velocities and cut recoil down until you get used to handling the recoil of your new to you model 29.

If you don't reload, yet, then I suggest that you go to Freedom Munitions and order some of their 44 Mag RNFP loads with the 240 grain plated bullets. Those aren't loaded as hot as what you will find from the major ammo players and again, more manageable recoil for you to get used to the beast. I have no affiliation with Freedom BTW, but my brother had bought some of that ammo so I know it's easier on recoil.

44 Special ammo is also a good learning round, but that stuff is expensive last time I looked. Quite a bit more than 44 Mag ammo.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:35 PM
k22fan k22fan is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,019
Likes: 2,765
Liked 2,697 Times in 1,343 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
Welcome to the Forum.

For now, I would put the Magnum loads aside and use Special loads only. It takes a lot of practice to master the handgun and shooting a bunch of .44 Magnums will give you the mother of all flinches.
This is great advise. Even better is to practice with .22 LR until you can shoot 3" 25 yard groups, then move up and do the same with .38 mid-range wadcutters, then standard .38s then +P then .44 Special then ... . However, for better or worse, a young or new shooter has to feel the big magnums.

A zillion years ago I could buy locally cast 180 grain .44 bullets cheaper then I could find scrap lead. Since I had not yet purchased a .38 or .357 I loaded them to about 700 fps and used them to practice with my 29-2. Reloading makes a .44 Magnum a very versatile cartridge. That's a hint.

By the way, ExcitableBoy's 8 3/8" Model 29DX has a full lug barrel. With barrels so long that adds a lot of weight to tame recoil. In a standard weight Model 29 a 240 grain 1,000 fps load is better for wimps like me.

Last edited by k22fan; 04-17-2017 at 06:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 04-17-2017, 06:44 PM
snowman snowman is online now
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rural NW Ohio
Posts: 2,534
Likes: 2,298
Liked 936 Times in 511 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
I went to the range with my new to me 29-2 today, shot about 20 rounds of 44 sp and 10 rounds of 44 mag. First time I've ever shot mag, and only the second time special. Wow, I understand why so many people consider the mag a punishing round to shoot. Ouch.
I was fascinated to notice that the specials grouped about 4"higher than the mag's at 10 yards. Even when I mixed them in one cylinder, and alternated. I got pretty similar groups to my Glock G26, maybe 3"or a little worse (I've only been shooting a few months, and have mediocre eye sight... Excuses, excuses). Anyway, anyone have any similar experience? I'd done a fair bit of dry firing, familiarizing myself with the gun, so I'm fairly sure my aim and trigger control weren't changing much. The 44 mag were a tighter group, maybe even 2.5". I realize this isn't bragging territory for an 8 3/8"barrel at 10 yards! You gotta start somewhere.
Another question re: grip. I'm still working it out, and mostly I'm struggling with thumb placement right now (I'm trying everything), but what ended my range session earlier, perhaps, than otherwise, was the trigger guard smashing back into the outside of my index knuckle. My finger was pretty beat up by the time I figured out what was going on. I was working hard to get my hand high in the grips for recoil control, but the trade off was that my index finger was sort of wedged between the grip and the trigger guard. When the gun smashed backwards with recoil, my finger got hit pretty hard (numbness an hour later), just on that knuckle.
Brilliant insight welcome

keithwins,

Welcome to the forum. I shoot .44 mag. regularly with heavy magnum loads, just because I enjoy the challenge of overcoming flinch and shooting a magnum accurately. So I believe I've learned a thing or two at least.

The first question that comes to my mind when someone speaks of experiencing pain, bleeding, bruising, etc. when firing heavily recoiling revolvers is if that person is only used to firing semi-autos and/or less powerful revolvers, especially for defensive shooting. I've discovered this to be the case more than once, for folks here on the forum and people I've encountered at the range(maybe not the case with you -obviously I don't know). The issue is that with defensive shooting, swift follow-up shots are crucial, maybe life-saving. This necessitates keeping the arm and wrist stiff in order to minimize recoil/muzzle jump, which of course slow down one's follow-up shots. In addition, it's important to keep the wrist stiff when firing semi-autos, so that the gun cycles properly.

But attempting to do the above with the big boomers usually results in painful shooting as you have experienced. With these guns, shooting heavy loads comfortably requires allowing the gun to recoil, rather than trying to stop or "control" it. One does this by first keeping the elbows and wrists bent and relaxed as suggested by one of the above posters. Then when the gun fires, let the muzzle rise upward as far as it wants to go, while guiding the gun only enough to prevent contact with your forehead. This is how I do it, and I never have any pain, no matter how many rounds I shoot. And yes, I get consistently good groups also.

I have to stop there for now. Let us know how things go.

Best wishes,
Andy

Last edited by snowman; 04-17-2017 at 06:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 04-17-2017, 08:26 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 835
Likes: 28
Liked 676 Times in 362 Posts
Default

I just suggest youtube and watch some of Jerry Miculeks videos . He's a 20 times world champion shooter , on team S&W , has great videos on proper stance / grip . He is amazing and a great teacher .
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:13 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moosedog View Post
Just wondering if both loads had the same bullet weight?

To control recoil with a handgun, you need to have your strong hand positioned with the web of that hand high on the tang of the grip. I found factory target grips to be useless. On S&W N frames I use regular magna grips with a Tyler Grip Adapter. Everyone's hand is different.
Yes, both 240g bullets, Winchester cartridges

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:14 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
That is only a little more than the difference that I got between reloads equivalent to factory loaded 246 grain .44 Specials and standard 240 grain Magnums with my first S&W .44 Magnum, an 8 3/8" Model 29-2. My groups were a foot apart vertically at 25 yards. The reason is that Special bullets are in the recoiling barrel approximately twice as long. The muzzle rises more before they exit. It varies with how you hold the revolver.

While they are not good looking, for me the rubber Hogue Mono-grips are the most comfortable on S&W .44 Magnums. They are only about $22 at full retail which is not to big a gamble. I often see used ones for sale for less.
Very interesting, and I just ordered the hour grips!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:16 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Joe Clark View Post
K22fan gave you the reason the hotter 44 mag loads located higher on the target. The recoil on the special loads raised the barrel higher before the slower bullet exited the muzzle. That is one fine revolver.

Show us photos, I like to drool over them.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
This is very interesting: I had just recently been convinced that the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil. But that was on a 9mm with a shooter barrel. Are you doing this particularly because it's long barrel, or would you expect the same with 3.5"?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:18 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by muddocktor View Post
keithwins, 44 Mag is one cartridge that really benefits from reloading your own, if you don't already reload. Not only does it cut round cost roughly in half, it also gives you the ability to download 44 Mag cases to 44 Special velocities and cut recoil down until you get used to handling the recoil of your new to you model 29.

If you don't reload, yet, then I suggest that you go to Freedom Munitions and order some of their 44 Mag RNFP loads with the 240 grain plated bullets. Those aren't loaded as hot as what you will find from the major ammo players and again, more manageable recoil for you to get used to the beast. I have no affiliation with Freedom BTW, but my brother had bought some of that ammo so I know it's easier on recoil.

44 Special ammo is also a good learning round, but that stuff is expensive last time I looked. Quite a bit more than 44 Mag ammo.
Thanks: not quite ready to consider reloading yet (I'm only a few months into this hobby), but I do hear how passionate people are about it, and how much sense it makes especially for bigger calibers. I will eventually give it some serious thought.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:25 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
This is great advise. Even better is to practice with .22 LR until you can shoot 3" 25 yard groups, then move up and do the same with .38 mid-range wadcutters, then standard .38s then +P then .44 Special then ... . However, for better or worse, a young or new shooter has to feel the big magnums.

A zillion years ago I could buy locally cast 180 grain .44 bullets cheaper then I could find scrap lead. Since I had not yet purchased a .38 or .357 I loaded them to about 700 fps and used them to practice with my 29-2. Reloading makes a .44 Magnum a very versatile cartridge. That's a hint.

By the way, ExcitableBoy's 8 3/8" Model 29DX has a full lug barrel. With barrels so long that adds a lot of weight to tame recoil. In a standard weight Model 29 a 240 grain 1,000 fps load is better for wimps like me.
Just to be clear: I am shooting my little Crossman .177 3277 pellet gun with red Dot, and Glock G26 with iTarget laser system (like dry firing but with results) more than actual rounds, and my Glock with real ammo way more than the 29 (150-300/week so far, I think). I'm trying to pay a lot of attention to form. I don't think I flinch, but I today around while assuming more than I wish. Also, I'm pretty comfortable with the Glock in my hand, but the 29 is still quite foreign.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:29 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
keithwins,

Welcome to the forum. I shoot .44 mag. regularly with heavy magnum loads, just because I enjoy the challenge of overcoming flinch and shooting a magnum accurately. So I believe I've learned a thing or two at least.

The first question that comes to my mind when someone speaks of experiencing pain, bleeding, bruising, etc. when firing heavily recoiling revolvers is if that person is only used to firing semi-autos and/or less powerful revolvers, especially for defensive shooting. I've discovered this to be the case more than once, for folks here on the forum and people I've encountered at the range(maybe not the case with you -obviously I don't know). The issue is that with defensive shooting, swift follow-up shots are crucial, maybe life-saving. This necessitates keeping the arm and wrist stiff in order to minimize recoil/muzzle jump, which of course slow down one's follow-up shots. In addition, it's important to keep the wrist stiff when firing semi-autos, so that the gun cycles properly.

But attempting to do the above with the big boomers usually results in painful shooting as you have experienced. With these guns, shooting heavy loads comfortably requires allowing the gun to recoil, rather than trying to stop or "control" it. One does this by first keeping the elbows and wrists bent and relaxed as suggested by one of the above posters. Then when the gun fires, let the muzzle rise upward as far as it wants to go, while guiding the gun only enough to prevent contact with your forehead. This is how I do it, and I never have any pain, no matter how many rounds I shoot. And yes, I get consistently good groups also.

I have to stop there for now. Let us know how things go.

Best wishes,
Andy
This is really really interesting. Yes, I was figuring hard to hold the gun still. A bystander at the range mentioned that he was impressed with my control: on the second load of ammo of ever shot through the gun. But I smacked the heck out of my hand. The second knuckle of my index finger is still numb, 10h later. Yikes! Almost all the pain was the mag, the discussion was fairly mellow.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:30 AM
muddocktor's Avatar
muddocktor muddocktor is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 2,030
Likes: 3,367
Liked 2,366 Times in 976 Posts
Default

If you aren't ready to reload yet, still save up your brass for later on as that will save you money when you do try reloading.

And I'm serious about you trying out the Freedom Munitions ammo as it is more moderate in recoil and priced less than 50 cents a round. And Freedom is a SAAMI accredited ammunition maker too. Give them a try; your hand and wrist will love you. Their website is right here.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:32 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy4evr View Post
I just suggest youtube and watch some of Jerry Miculeks videos . He's a 20 times world champion shooter , on team S&W , has great videos on proper stance / grip . He is amazing and a great teacher .
Yes, I've watched many of his videos, some multiple times. Very helpful.

Thanks everyone for such helpful suggestions. If anyone wants to see pics of the gun, it's in another thread of mine. I'll link in a minute

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:35 AM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
Yes, I've watched many of his videos, some multiple times. Very helpful.

Thanks everyone for such helpful suggestions. If anyone wants to see pics of the gun, it's in another thread of mine. I'll link in a minute

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Here's the gun pics
New almost Smith owner

Thanks again!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:04 AM
k22fan k22fan is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,019
Likes: 2,765
Liked 2,697 Times in 1,343 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
This is very interesting: I had just recently been convinced that the bullet leaves the barrel before recoil. But that was on a 9mm with a shooter barrel. Are you doing this particularly because it's long barrel, or would you expect the same with 3.5"?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
The longer the barrel the larger the expected vertical spread between the groups of cartridges with very different velocities.

Also many target shooters believe that shorter barrels reduce group size because there is less barrel time during which human error can move the barrel off target. In my view that's stretching bench rest rifle theory to pistols which move around too much from human error for it to be relevant. The theory is relevant when all your competition are going to turn in 10 shot groups under 0.2" at 200 yards. The best bench rest rifle barrels are made short and stiff partly for that reason. The other reason is short and stiff barrels vibrate less.

With pistols that have optic or laser sights competitors say why not take whatever advantage comes from it. My answer is with a longer sight radius I can see smaller misalignment of iron sights, long barrels increase velocity and they reduce magnums' muzzle blast.

Last edited by k22fan; 04-18-2017 at 01:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-18-2017, 08:16 AM
snowman snowman is online now
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Rural NW Ohio
Posts: 2,534
Likes: 2,298
Liked 936 Times in 511 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
This is really really interesting. Yes, I was figuring hard to hold the gun still. A bystander at the range mentioned that he was impressed with my control: on the second load of ammo of ever shot through the gun. But I smacked the heck out of my hand. The second knuckle of my index finger is still numb, 10h later. Yikes! Almost all the pain was the mag, the discussion was fairly mellow.

Good morning, keithwins. I thought perhaps this was what was happening to you; hence my earlier post.

But I should address specifically how one may avoid the hammering effect of the trigger guard on your finger. The general principle is the same: let the gun go where it wants to go. But your specific issue deals with the gun's sharp, backward lurch into the finger.

Here is where bent, relaxed elbows come in. When the gun fires, let your elbows bend with the rearward movement of the gun just enough to cushion the blow. It doesn't take much; if one allows the elbows to be entirely limp, offering no resistance at all, then getting struck in the forehead is a possibility.

Maybe an analogy will help. Think of the arm as like a recoil spring in a semi-auto; which, when the gun fires, allows the sharply-recoiling slide to compress it just enough to extract and eject the fired case and load the next round, but not so much as to damage any parts in the gun. Not a perfect analogy, but maybe it will help a bit.

I should mention that this must not be a conscious act; one just allows the elbows to flex with the recoil. Trying to do it consciously means that the shooter is trying to anticipate the shot and the recoil which accompanies it. That of course will degrade accuracy significantly.

Well, I don't know if that will help you much, but keep asking questions here and the chances are very good that the members collectively will steer you in the right direction and get you where you want to go. That's what this forum has done for me and a lot of others.

Regards,
Andy
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:24 AM
SLT223 SLT223 is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,993
Likes: 1,171
Liked 2,125 Times in 639 Posts
Default

Reloading helps enourmously with tackling heavy recoiling calibers. It allows you to down load and work your way up, all the while becoming familiar with the handling of the gun. That's one a many very good reasons to reload. Reloading is to shooting what the "Red pill" is to the Matrix
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-18-2017, 12:49 PM
daddy bear daddy bear is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 232
Likes: 73
Liked 155 Times in 89 Posts
Default

Tips for taming the 29 w/ full house loads.

1. Tame the .22 revolver. I suggest a 6" 17.

2. Same as #.

3. Practice with a good .38.

4. Practice with a good .357. A 27 or 28 will do you well for 3 and 4 and are the same size as a 29.

5. Go back to the .22 to check your habits.

6. Practice with the 29 using special loads 750-800 fps.

7. Up the loads to 1000 fps.

8. Go to full house 44 magnum loads, but only a few at a time.

Use the 22 and light loaded 38 to fine tune the fundamentals of stance, breath control, trigger control, posture, grip, and sight picture. Mastering the 22 will carry over and pay dividends even for rifle shooting. Conditioning is good as well. When I was young and my heart rate was in the high forties, it was easy to trip the trigger between beats. Now at close to eighty and with a pacemaker set at a minimum of 70 bpm, not so good. Don't ignore the light recoiling loads to test your improvement. Go back to them even after you think you have the magnum mastered. The recoil will remind you to CONCENTRATE on the basics.

I mastered the 44 with magnum loads in the early seventies with a 4" 29. I considered it mastered when I could keep two strings of five shots each within ten seconds (timed fire) in the black on the NRA 25 yard target, consistently, standing, one hand grip. I realize that would win no competition, but most competitions were shot with target loadings of 650-750 fps.

Good luck with your .44,

Jack

Last edited by daddy bear; 04-18-2017 at 12:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:07 PM
old&slow old&slow is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: central, Ohio
Posts: 891
Likes: 657
Liked 828 Times in 373 Posts
Default

Many many years ago , I took my brand new 8 3/8" S&W 29 to the range to sight in. At 25 yards my light reloads , 245 gr. cast bullet at about 900 to 950 fps. printed about 8 inches high with the rear sight bottomed out.

A gentleman at the range asked me if I had any hot loads with me. Shot six 240 gr JHP at about 1250 to 1300 fps which centered up very nicely and chewed out the center of the bullseye.

I never noticed the problem with my 4" or 6" .44 ,,, but it made a big difference with the 8 3/8 barrel...

Last edited by old&slow; 04-18-2017 at 01:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-18-2017, 03:57 PM
Jingles's Avatar
Jingles Jingles is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 509
Likes: 68
Liked 806 Times in 281 Posts
Default

As far as your finger, yeah, I hear you! I love the look of factory S&W stocks but on my magnums the first thing I do is pull them off and throw on a set of rubber Hogues or Pachmayr Presentation grips. They fill in a lot more of the gap behind the trigger guard so your finger is much less apt to get squished.

Note in the photo below how the Hogues fill in the gap much more that the factory grips. Pachmayrs do so even more but I prefer the old style Pachmayr Presentation - size Large - without the medallion. They just feel better than the newer ones. They havent been made for a while so I usually find them on Ebay for around $25 NOS.

44 special vs Magnum & aim-stocks-jpg
Attached Thumbnails
44 special vs Magnum & aim-stocks-jpg  
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #27  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:00 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old&slow View Post
Many many years ago , I took my brand new 8 3/8" S&W 29 to the range to sight in. At 25 yards my light reloads , 245 gr. cast bullet at about 900 to 950 fps. printed about 8 inches high with the rear sight bottomed out.

A gentleman at the range asked me if I had any hot loads with me. Shot six 240 gr JHP at about 1250 to 1300 fps which centered up very nicely and chewed out the center of the bullseye.

I never noticed the problem with my 4" or 6" .44 ,,, but it made a big difference with the 8 3/8 barrel...
That does seem to exactly parallel my (extreme beginner) experience. It's always nice to know that I'm not crazy, or at least it's not showing yet...44 special vs Magnum & aim

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:04 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingles View Post
As far as your finger, yeah, I hear you! I love the look of factory S&W stocks but on my magnums the first thing I do is pull them off and throw on a set of rubber Hogues or Pachmayr Presentation grips. They fill in a lot more of the gap behind the trigger guard so your finger is much less apt to get squished.

Note in the photo below how the Hogues fill in the gap much more that the factory grips. Pachmayrs do so even more but I prefer the old style Pachmayr Presentation - size Large - without the medallion. They just feel better than the newer ones. They havent been made for a while so I usually find them on Ebay for around $25 NOS.

44 special vs Magnum & aim-stocks-jpg
That is very cool: I thought that is what I saw in the pics of the hogue grip I was looking at, but it wasn't on a gun. Anyway, I ordered it so I'll see it first hand soon. I'm not going to shoot the 44 again until my finger doesn't feel damaged though... It's still a little numb and sore. It looks like the hogue might let me get my pinky and supporting hand into the action a little better too.
I've heard some day to not leave the grip on the gun, to avoid corrosion. It will get very humid here in a bit. Opinions?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #29  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:24 PM
model3sw's Avatar
model3sw model3sw is offline
Vendor
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: South Florida, USA
Posts: 1,582
Likes: 2,824
Liked 1,316 Times in 512 Posts
Default

Get a set of S&W (branded with S&W logo) Hogue mono's for the X-Frame S&W (500 magnum) which fits the .44 Magnum, .460 and .500 magnum.

Have to be careful with some of the newer Pachmayr set (forgot what the name type is but rather new) are killers on the index finger. The olde Pachmayr N Frames Magnums work better.
__________________
Sal "ANTIQUESMITHS"
LM1300
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-18-2017, 11:48 PM
Jingles's Avatar
Jingles Jingles is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 509
Likes: 68
Liked 806 Times in 281 Posts
Default

Put a good coat of car wax on the blued steel before you put on the rubber grips. It'll prevent rust.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-19-2017, 03:11 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jingles View Post
Put a good coat of car wax on the blued steel before you put on the rubber grips. It'll prevent rust.
Yes, this is probably good advice. I should probably store it with desiccant too, I'm guessing, at least in the summer.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-19-2017, 10:03 PM
Gpsman Gpsman is online now
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: St. Louis Missouri
Posts: 150
Likes: 119
Liked 161 Times in 72 Posts
Default 44 special vs Magnum & aim

You've gotten lots of good info!

I would add that Georgia Arms makes a nice 240 grain LSW .44 magnum load st 1000fps for 50 cents a round.

I like the Freedom Arms too.

I love how the wood stocks look, but I like to shoot with the Pachmyer Decellerators.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-20-2017, 12:32 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

This may just show my ignorance, but.. if I shoot a 44 special with a lighter bullet, like a 180, wouldn't that mean faster mv, and therefore behavior more like the Magnums i was firing? More generally, doesn't the entire difference come down to MV?
Also, where did you see these Georgia arms you mentioned?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:58 PM
k22fan k22fan is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,019
Likes: 2,765
Liked 2,697 Times in 1,343 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwins View Post
This may just show my ignorance, but.. if I shoot a 44 special with a lighter bullet, like a 180, wouldn't that mean faster mv, and therefore behavior more like the Magnums i was firing? More generally, doesn't the entire difference come down to MV? [...]
While I'm not too far out on a limb agreeing that muzzle velocity has a bigger influence than bullet weight, 240 grainers would be expected to hit a littler higher than 180 grainers at the same velocity. The bullets would be in the barrel for the same length of time and the heavier bullet would make it rise more during that time. There's an experiment for a member who owns a chronogragh and likes to reload and hang out at the range.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-25-2017, 11:37 AM
BigBill's Avatar
BigBill BigBill is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: north america
Posts: 9,645
Likes: 1,076
Liked 7,880 Times in 3,293 Posts
Default

The only way to get better accuracy is,,,,,

Stagger full house 44 mag loads.
I mix up the rounds in a bowl. I dont look when I load it.

Shoot more often.
Shoot it at 25yards. Go the distance so everything will fall into place.

Stay shooting one gun till you master it. Do not shoot multiple guns at the same time.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-29-2017, 08:42 PM
Jersey Doug Jersey Doug is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 56
Likes: 6
Liked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Default

What works for me,,, I shoot three boxes of .22LR in a 8 3/8 model 17 then at the end of the range session shoot one cylinder full of .44 mags (also 8 3/8th) to remind why I shoot the .22 so much. Beyond that find rubber grips way more forgiving.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 05-21-2017, 12:50 PM
keithwins keithwins is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Changing to grips that moved my fingers down the grip so the trigger guard didn't smash into my knuckle with Magnum loads made all the difference.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-21-2017, 05:37 PM
4-Screw's Avatar
4-Screw 4-Screw is offline
SWCA Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Chicago...via Scottsdale,
Posts: 1,000
Likes: 413
Liked 1,367 Times in 157 Posts
Default

I just so happen to have a comparison. In 1993 or so, I was was thinking the same thing with a 29-2 6.5". I think I was 23 years old, so it was probably '93. Where did those 24 years go to?

These targets are 6 rounds each, at 50ft, one-handed....I can't shoot with two hands

I would have probably improved my placement with a second target for each round, but I left it at this. The low and to the right was definitely from my grip. I was shooting with factory target stocks, and they are definitely too large for my hands.




__________________
S&WCA #2079

Last edited by 4-Screw; 05-21-2017 at 05:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #39  
Old 05-24-2017, 03:10 PM
petemacmahon petemacmahon is offline
SWCA Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mohnton, PA
Posts: 296
Likes: 82
Liked 149 Times in 86 Posts
Default

YUP, oldjoe and k22fan got it spot on. Some folks refer to it as "dwell time", the time the bullet is in the barrel. Rule of thumb is faster/lighter will shoot lower than heavier/slower out of the same handgun. This is most pronounced with the bigger bores.

My S&W 696 shoots Corbon's 44 S&W Special 165gr Self-Defense JHP ammo 8-10 inches lower than a 240 grain LSWC over 13 grains of 2400 at 25 yards.

Of course, shooting limp wrist-ed will probably exacerbate this.

Personally, I never had a problem with S&W's biting the index finger of my off hand, but I have to admit that the recoil of my 629 mountain gun can be quite severe on the web of my strong hand with 250 grain bear hunting loads! While most of my other revolvers wear wooden grips/stocks, that mountain gun has ugly pacmyer decelerators on it - and I usually shoot it with my leather hunting gloves on too!!
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #40  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:19 PM
petemacmahon petemacmahon is offline
SWCA Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mohnton, PA
Posts: 296
Likes: 82
Liked 149 Times in 86 Posts
Default

oh also, now that you understand how free recoil affects bullet impact, you will understand this: NEVER,NEVER,NEVER dial in a hunting revolver using a rest and expect it to hit the same free hand at distances much beyond 20 yards.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-24-2017, 05:47 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim 44 special vs Magnum & aim  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 835
Likes: 28
Liked 676 Times in 362 Posts
Default

Keith wins , don't get upset about the 44 mag . It's a worthwhile caliber to shoot and enjoy . I had to learn the hard way . I was 10 when I fired a 44 mag ( full house load ) the first time . It was a ruger blackhawk . I " cowboyed it " one handed . The recoil flipped the muzzle straight up and in an arc and hit me on top of the head , hard !
Slightly dazed by the whole affair , I'm standing there and my Uncle , with an evil sort of grin says " Do it again " . To which I dumbly replied " Ok " . The second shot laid me on the ground . He thought it was funny watching a skinny kid with skinny arms getting bounced around . I have since learned " a thing or two " about shooting the 44 magnum .

Last edited by cowboy4evr; 05-24-2017 at 05:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The 640-2 a 38 Special J Magnum. Do you really need more than 38 Special in a J frame Allen-frame S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 14 10-13-2015 10:00 PM
.38 Special vs .357 Magnum for EDC 6ForSure S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 18 10-08-2015 05:22 PM
S&W 357 magnum and 38 special ctf age? jarret z S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 4 01-29-2014 07:04 PM
.44 Special vs .44 Magnum Catdaddy The Lounge 27 12-02-2013 08:01 PM
WTT: Vintage Western .357 Magnum box for smae in .44 Special or .44 Magnum Marksman Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 0 11-18-2010 09:38 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:53 PM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)