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Old 04-18-2017, 11:43 PM
Jersey Doug Jersey Doug is offline
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Default accuracy claims believable?

Have been picking up old issues of Shooting Times to get caught up on those years since the late 70s was away from shooting. Noticed in a Taurus gun test (April 1999) they claim getting a 1.25 group with a four inch barrel .357 revolver at twenty five yards. Also remember other S.T. tests over the years with S&Ws and Colts claiming clover leaf groups at that yardage. I know I can't come anywhere close to those results myself, was wondering are these embellished claims or is there anyone here on this site that can actually shoot that tight of a group with a stock four inch revolver with factory ammo?
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:52 PM
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If I recall, a lot of their accuracy tests were done using a ransom rest. I have seen bullseye shooters cut clover leaves at 25 yards, but I couldn't do that on my best Day!
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:59 PM
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I have several targets shooting S&W revolvers at 25 yds with barrels from 4" to 8 3/8", but the ammunition was my handloads WC, that were all 10s, a few 10X. I have my old bullseye score book, and sometimes think how it was at 30, cranking the Model 14 one-handed for many scores above 270. Age has taken its toll on me. My old revolvers are as good as ever.
The current mania for pouring rounds downrange as fast as the trigger can be yanked is not consistent with precise marksmanship, and some of my students consider a paper plate at 10 yds good enough.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:17 AM
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A Smith and Wesson revolver in good condition is very capable of producing groups like that as I suspect Rugers, Colts, Taurus and others are. The thing is most people do not have the skill to do so. It takes lots and lot of practice to be able to shoot that good. Keep in mind when accuracy test are done the norm is to use a Ransom rest or the like. Just because someone can not produce tight groups with their chosen gun doesn't mean the gun isn't accurate very likely it is their marksmanship that needs work not the gun.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKFC05 View Post
Age has taken its toll on me. My old revolvers are as good as ever.
I absolutely love the honesty, and I can relate.

Warm regards,

Bob
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:15 AM
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My point of reference for handgun accuracy is Bullseye competition. The rules, and targets used, were designed and intended to reflect the intrinsic accuracy of the high quality American handguns of the day. Specifically, this means Smith & Wesson, High Standard and Colt. The target arms of these companies were simply refined versions of their service arms, having adjustable sights and more finely tuned lockwork. The fact is, even the service arms of these companies were capable of top scores.

What kind of groups were expected in order to win?
Well, the 10 ring of the 50 yard slow fire is about 3 inches, and the X ring is about 1.65" (sorry, I forget the exact measurements). Many slow fire matches have been fired where the top shooters had "clean" targets (i.e: perfect score of 100... 10 shots in the 10 ring, standing, using one hand). The winner was decided by the high number count in the X ring.
Do a little math, and 5 shot groups @ 25 yards off a bench under an inch aren't that tough.

Elmer Keith said, as a matter of fact, that any good gun by the aforementioned companies was capable of 1.5" groups at 50 yards with the right ammo. It's in "Sixguns", if anyone cares to check.

Manufacturers today know that very few shooters will use their products with such a high expectation of performance. Now, it's all just "spray and pray" at 5 yards, etc.

How times have changed! Rod & Gun clubs used to exist all over the country (and in big cities), businesses and police departments would compete with employee teams. Just about everyone started out with a basic target grade 22 like a Ruger Mk I, Colt Woodsman, High Standard Sharpshooter, etc. And, they learned the basics shooting the National Match course in local leagues after work!

Like I said, it was a different time.

Jim

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Old 04-19-2017, 01:58 AM
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I'm not an exceptional shot, but when I was firing a couple of weekends a month, I sometimes got all six shots in a single ragged hole at 25 yards, firing from "offhand."


The primary writer who wrote such tests has used a Ransom Rest and said so.


My results with a S&W M-27 (two different ones), a M-28, a Colt .45 New Service made in the 1930's and a couple of Colt Pythons did those "one ragged hole" groups fairly often.


The most accurate pistol I've owned was a Colt Gold Cup .45 auto. With 230 grain Federal Match loads, it shot groups that I probably shouldn't mention here, lest some cynic tell me that I'm a liar.


I suspect that the OP can't shoot well and hasn't met anyone who could. There are a lot of people like that. That's why you see these "marksmen" brag at indoor ranges about the foot size groups they just shot.. at a target maybe 5-10 yards away!

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Old 04-19-2017, 02:30 AM
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I look at it this way, have you EVER got the stated "gas mileage" from ANY vehicle? Has anyone ever said they get 37MPG with their TRUCK? Folks stretch the truth/facts as there is this false sense of pride/bravada in it all. What you can shoot with any firearm is what YOU can shoot with it. Someone else MAY do better or worse with it. Good Luck and Good Shooting! Kyle
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:56 AM
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I remember an old article that wrung out six-inch heavy-barreled .357 revolvers out to 100 yards from Ransom Rests. I THINK it came out S&W 686, Colt Python, then Ruger GP-100 and Dan Wesson (forget the order) and then Taurus followed by a lighter-framed Rossi in last place. All but the Rossi were VERY accurate. Taurus products seem to be hit-or-miss. I wouldn't be surprised if a good one could achieve the kind of accuracy that the OP mentioned with match ammunition.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:26 AM
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I read SHOOTING TIMES in the '70s and '80s when it was a far better magazine that what it became later. I don't have my old issues, but I'm pretty sure any handgun accuracy evaluation where a Ransom rest was used had mention of that in the article.

Some handguns and ammunition may not be up to the task. However, if they are, a skilled shooter (as someone else stated) can regularly fire very small groups at twenty-five yards and beyond from a rested position.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:31 AM
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Absolutely the most accurate handgun of any type that I have owned was a Taurus .357 with a 6 inch barrel that I had back in the early '80s. Mounted with a 1X Tasco pistol scope, it would shot groups from a rest that were literally one small hole at 50 yards using just about any jacketed 158 gr. load. I don't believe for a minute that every Taurus would shoot that well -- but then, neither would every S&W.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:48 AM
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Back in the heyday of shooting magazines, I always assumed that any accuracy tests were done by at the very least, firing off of sandbags, if not with a Ransom Rest. Most of the time there would be a picture of the shooter with sandbags/Ransom.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:57 AM
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I still have a .41 mag target shot at 50 yards with a 3 shot cloverleaf, with the wonderful S&W mod 57, 6" barrel. I was sitting, resting my arms between my legs. I was shooting cast bullets, and my handloads. By the way I had a very reliable witness that was spotting for me.

Now I would be lucky to keep them on a paper plate.

Age has no mercy.

Have a blessed day,

Leon
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockquarry View Post
I read SHOOTING TIMES in the '70s and '80s when it was a far better magazine that what it became later.
Amen. I used to be a gun magazine addict, they all seem to have become a waste of money and time now. I still have some of my Handgunner mags from the late 80s, and I still reference their articles.
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:09 PM
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A descent trigger, and my pet mid range loads, I can make a clover leaf at 15 yds with most of my 6" N frames, standing (okay, leaning against the table) offhand at the indoor range.

I cant see well enough beyond that to get under 2" at 25yds. From a ransom rest...I would expect much better. So yes, I believe 1.25" with Tarus is possible.
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:10 PM
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After 50 years of handgun shooting including 30 years of magnum handgun matches and bullseye I can honestly say that I have had and still have various brands that will shoot better groups than I am now capable of. All of these guns will easily do 1.25 inches at 25 yards. With My eyes as they are I now subscribe to what Jeff Cooper said decades ago. " 6 inches at 50 yards is adequate for pedestrians."
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:41 PM
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When S/Sgt. Sal Giunta received the Medal of Honor, CBS Chief Foreign Correspondent Lara Logan congratulated him. I like Logan. She is one of the few media personalities who seems admiring of our troops and somewhat conservative in her reporting.


Giunta replied that he wasn't outstanding, just a mediocre soldier. Amused and surprised, Logan asked again and Giunta said, "Just think of what the outstanding soldiers are like."


Those of us who saw Bill Jordan or Elmer Keith shoot saw the outstanding soldiers of marksmanship.


There are still some around. If Brian Pearce tells us that his guns performed in a certain manner, I feel that his field tests mean something. If an unknown individual posts his groups that are mostly mediocre or worse, that is space on the Net that should have been used for something else. It tells us very little about what the gun/ammo combo can do in more competent hands.

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Old 04-19-2017, 09:07 PM
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Default Today's "marksmanship"

I have been at the outdoor range about 5 times in the last 2 weeks practicing for a revolver silhouette match. I have had no trouble shooting smaller groups at 50 yards with a M629 with 44 magnum level reloads than most of the other shooters did with AR 15 -- either scoped or iron sights shooting at 50 yards.

Three fine young shooters fired about 250 rounds and never hit the red center or what was the 10 ring. I now have more than 1 gallon (over-flowing milk jug) of polished once-fired brass.

Oh -- at the Silhouette Match on 3-25-17 my score was 3 out of 40 possible, but I had fun. SW282 witnessed that incredible performance. My score can only get better!
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:12 PM
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I am shooting 2" + / - groups with my 'new' 2" mod 60 at 20 + yards. Once I get a new blue sight on my 4" mod 66 I expect even better.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:54 PM
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Absolutely! My stock 4" 66-0 shot a 25 yd group on the lower right last weekend with a warm 160 grain hand load I was working up, but it loves the Federal .38 special LRN 158 grain just as much. That target pic has flipped sideways for some reason. The target as pictured is lower right but when shot it was lower left. 6:00 hold and they were landing right over the bull if I didn't flinch.
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:56 PM
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I used to be able to shoot fairly decent groups off a bench 30 years ago. My method was to support my wrists only on the sandbags. The handgun and everything else was off the bags. Using this method I not only got good groups, my offhand point of impact was the same as the point of impact off the bench.

Like I said, good groups, 30 years ago. The older I get, the better I was.
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Old 04-20-2017, 12:18 AM
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Yes, very believable! My first 4" Kit gun which I owned when was 16 would shoot groups from a rest all day long which varied from 1/2-1" at 25 yards. I wasn't guessing, it was on the Omaha Police range. Best shooting .22 revolver I ever have owned! Foolishly traded if for something else about 2 years later thinking they would all shoot this well and it could be replaced! I have had a couple of K-22s that will shoot around 1 1/4", sometimes a bit smaller, at 25 yds, but then the eyes were far better 55+ years ago. These days I feel fairly good with 3-4" with the same guns!
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:16 AM
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If guys like Skeeter, Bill Jordan and Elmer Kieth were doing the shooting, yes it's believable, mere mortals such as myself, not so much....
The metal silhouette guys were pretty darned amazing also if you ever saw them in action. A man size target at 25 feet with 15 shots blazing away isn't the same challenge.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:34 AM
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Not trying to brag, but two weeks ago I shot my Series 70 Colt Gold Cup at 50 yards (was shooting a Lever Action Rifle and just wanted to see if I could hit anything). Out of 7 rounds, 230 grain RNL reloads, I hit the 1" bullseye 3 times and the other 4 shots were within a 5" grouping. I aimed about 6 " high as my reloads were mild and not a full charge load. I was truly amazed that at 50 yards I could shoot relatively accurately and consistently. So YES, I do believe the 25 yard claim.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:25 PM
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These accuracy claims are benchrested or ransom rested. Me and my buddies have got in to benchrest shooting our handguns, having friendy competition. Quite fun, especially for a reloader testing loads and bullets.
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