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05-01-2017, 02:34 AM
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Rare but there; Model 19 fixed sights
A rare civilian S&W M19-3, 3" with fixed sights. A factory overrun of the RS model.
Last edited by Andyd; 07-03-2017 at 05:21 AM.
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05-01-2017, 03:03 AM
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Nice find. I take it that you own it?
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05-01-2017, 03:46 AM
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Interesting. I hadn't heard of those.
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05-01-2017, 06:58 AM
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It was built for the French GIGN when Raymond Sassia was in charge of weapons procurement. It came from the estate of an old friend who always borrowed my S&W 14-2 and six inch Python to win competitions with them. He only owned revolvers with two to four inch barrels but was an outstanding marksman.
The issued police guns had RS in the serial, I believe, for Raymond Sassia.
Last edited by Andyd; 05-01-2017 at 06:59 AM.
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05-01-2017, 08:07 AM
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"There" yes...... but very very few "here"!!!!
I always think of those as "early Manly Smiths"!
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05-01-2017, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM
"There" yes...... but very very few "here"!!!!
I always think of those as "early Manly Smiths"!
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I love fixed sight K-frames and this one is as perfect as it gets.
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05-01-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
I love fixed sight K-frames and this one is as perfect as it gets.
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Yep.....have to agree......... as the owner of 3" 65s and 66s...... I'd love that gun or a "Non-Lady Smith" 65.
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05-01-2017, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
I love fixed sight K-frames and this one is as perfect as it gets.
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I fell into this one a year or so ago.
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05-01-2017, 09:31 AM
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These are VERY sought-after by collectors here.
We had a thread about the French contract here not too long ago.
French contract Model19-3 Anybody have one?
If you scroll down that one a bit, someone posted a copy of a history letter.
PS: Interesting guy, Sasia. I believe in picture 1 he is holding a Colt OP. In picture 2, he appears to be teaching how to shoot an Uzi while pooping in the woods
Last edited by Absalom; 05-01-2017 at 09:44 AM.
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05-01-2017, 10:58 AM
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I would buy one of those in mint condition. I am looking for a model 65 in mint condition, but that would do as well. It would be nice if someone made an insert to convert the rear adjustable sight, to a fixed sight on any revolver with the rear sight just screwed on. I am only interested in stainless revolvers, but the rear sight can be blued.
Last edited by KSDeputy; 05-02-2017 at 09:45 AM.
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05-01-2017, 02:26 PM
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Blued, fixed sight, 3" shrouded barrel, round butt, K-Frame, in a magnum caliber. Sign me up for one!
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05-01-2017, 02:45 PM
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I guess you could make one with a model 13 and model 19 barrel. Just cut the 19 barrel to 3 inches and install a model 13 front sight. Wouldn't be the same as an original but would look and shoot like one. Good winter project. Jus sayin.
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05-01-2017, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old bear
I fell into this one a year or so ago.
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This guy is hiding a K frame ladysmith too. Stainless, 3 inch, enclosed ejector rod. Yes, it is a great shooter!
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05-01-2017, 08:38 PM
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Is that the same Raymond Sassia that was President Charles de Gaulle's bodyguard?
I'd love to have one of those RS guns. Love the 3", would go great with a Model 58 and 520.
I do however have a model 65 3", not-LadySmith. And a 3" Mod 650 in .22 WRM.
Congrats on the coolest acquisition I've seen in quite a while.
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05-01-2017, 09:14 PM
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The Winter Project.........
Sandspur6 spoke of looks like this.
I made it a few years ago. I'm old & too impatient to wait for a real one.
Ned
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05-01-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old bear
I fell into this one a year or so ago.
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Fred-
I think your gun was made for Peru.
The French ones were used by the Presidential security men, called the Hunting Party or some such. But GIGN may well have had some, too. They have a very wide choice in handguns.
When Jan Stevenson was writing for, Guns, he discussed these French guns and Raymond Sasia.
I think GIGN replaced their K-framed S&W .357's with MR-73's, which stand up MUCH better to HEAVY use of full .357 ammo.
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05-01-2017, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19leben
Is that the same Raymond Sassia that was President Charles de Gaulle's bodyguard?
......
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Yep. Wrote a book about it, which would make interesting reading, although my French is too inadequate. He was still around as recent as 2012 (photo).
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05-02-2017, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19leben
Is that the same Raymond Sassia that was President Charles de Gaulle's bodyguard?
I'd love to have one of those RS guns. Love the 3", would go great with a Model 58 and 520.
I do however have a model 65 3", not-LadySmith. And a 3" Mod 650 in .22 WRM.
Congrats on the coolest acquisition I've seen in quite a while.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Yes, that is him. He later procured Ruger Revolvers and got Manurhin to produce Rugers Sixes under license, then the MR73s were developed for Police use and succeeded by the MR96, the ugly duckling.
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05-02-2017, 02:02 AM
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Fascinating.
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05-02-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Fred-
I think your gun was made for Peru.
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Jim, you are correct. I don't know if anyone was able to open the "screen shot" of the Jinks letter I posted. But, that clearly states the 4" revolvers were ordered by Peru. The one I have was an overrun and sent to Westco in Germany, and finally made it's way back to the states.
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05-02-2017, 03:17 PM
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I've seen one resembling AndyD's revolver for sell for around $900. It's advertised as a 3" 13 but has the colored insert on the front sight. Could you get the 13's with the sight insert?
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05-03-2017, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmc5811
I've seen one resembling AndyD's revolver for sell for around $900. It's advertised as a 3" 13 but has the colored insert on the front sight. Could you get the 13's with the sight insert?
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A model 13 with a 3" barrel is a standard production gun that is just not all too common and highly sought after. I guess that a RR, a red ramp insert, could be ordered with the M13 at the time of production.
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05-04-2017, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
A model 13 with a 3" barrel is a standard production gun that is just not all too common and highly sought after. I guess that a RR, a red ramp insert, could be ordered with the M13 at the time of production.
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The pertinent question would be, shroud or no shroud?
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05-04-2017, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishcreekrim
The pertinent question would be, shroud or no shroud?
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From the factory the M13 did not come with an ejector housing shroud and the M19 came standard with adjustable sights, correct?
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05-04-2017, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
From the factory the M13 did not come with an ejector housing shroud and the M19 came standard with adjustable sights, correct?
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Yes. Basically, the Model 13 was a Model 10 Heavy Barrel up-calibered to .357 Magnum, while the Model 19 was (at least that's the popular story) Bill Jordan's idea of down-sizing the adjustable-sight N-frame Magnum to a K-frame. Really different genesis.
Last edited by Absalom; 05-04-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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05-04-2017, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
Yes. Basically, the Model 13 was a Model 10 Heavy Barrel up-calibered to .357 Magnum, while the Model 19 was (at least that's the popular story) Bill Jordan's idea of down-sizing the adjustable-sight N-frame Magnum to a K-frame. Really different genesis.
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The story about Jordan is correct. And he told me in person that he never envisioned that people would use it as a full-time Magnum. He felt that most .357 owners shot maybe 10-15% of their rounds as .357 ammo, the rest .38's. At that rate, the Combat Magnum endures pretty well.
i
BTW, Bill also told me that he felt that stainless steel was the greatest advance in handguns in the past hundred years. So, a M-66 was the perfection of his idea of a more compact .357.
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05-04-2017, 11:37 AM
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Rare but there; Model 19 fixed sights
Just thought this thread needed more visual reference. lol
Here's a couple of 3" k frame fixed sighted beauties.
M13 & M65
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05-04-2017, 12:35 PM
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One observation about the M-19 RS that I want to also share with you is that the frame isn't cut out for the trigger stop, it misses the slot.
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05-04-2017, 03:52 PM
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Very nice fixed site Model 19.
Besides the ejector rod shroud your fixed site Model 19 frame is longer in the yoke area to mate to the shroud (as is the Model 65 Lady Smith).
K frame barrels with an ejector rod shroud will work on Standard Model 13 and Model 65 frames but the shroud overhangs the frame a little .
Last edited by Engine49guy; 05-04-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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05-04-2017, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
One observation about the M-19 RS that I want to also share with you is that the frame isn't cut out for the trigger stop, it misses the slot.
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The ones made for the French in 1973 didn't have the slot for the trigger stop but the order for West Germany in 1972 did.
They also don't have the serrated front and back straps of KT's, they're smooth like M&Ps.
French . . . . . . West German
Last edited by snw19_357; 05-05-2017 at 11:34 AM.
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05-05-2017, 04:18 AM
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The serial number of D63xxxx puts it as fixed sights manufactured in 1968. This gun has been very well cared for but the timing was a tad late and I changed the hand to one from my parts box that improved the timing. A polished rebound slide and lower power spring have been also installed from the same box, keeping the stock parts and the double action pull is now very nice!
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05-05-2017, 10:24 AM
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I think Smith & Wesson is missing the boat by not producing the 19/66 in a 3 and 2.5 inch fixed sight configuration! !
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05-05-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pete950
I think Smith & Wesson is missing the boat by not producing the 19/66 in a 3 and 2.5 inch fixed sight configuration! !
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...........
I think they called it the Model 13, 65 and 65LS in 3".....I advocated for years for a 65NL ( non-Lady smith) without luck.......
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07-07-2017, 12:31 AM
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Since I love longer barreled revolvers and also like fixed sighted revolvers, I hunted down a S&W M19-P. The condition isn't exactly what I had expected but the gun has been shot very little and has good timing. I love FGC and changed the grips out for my shooting pleasure.
It is a S&W M19-P, made for Peru in 1987 in the AWF range and is part of the delivery to Wischo, Germany. It has Belgian proof marks but I somehow suspect that the revolvers went through Luxembourg, which isn't a member of CIP and were therefore proofed at CIP headquarters for European sales.
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07-07-2017, 01:59 AM
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Best of both worlds in my opinion. I have always liked fixed sights better and I just cannot stop wanting more model 19s. I would love to have a gun that was both (I do own a model 65 but it just isn't the same).
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07-07-2017, 03:38 AM
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I also love fixed sight revolvers and they have a place in the front of my safe, I have the M10s, 64s, a 65 and also a Ruger GP100 with fixed sights. The M65 is pretty much an all-time favorite.
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07-07-2017, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
It was built for the French GIGN when Raymond Sassia was in charge of weapons procurement. It came from the estate of an old friend who always borrowed my S&W 14-2 and six inch Python to win competitions with them. He only owned revolvers with two to four inch barrels but was an outstanding marksman.
The issued police guns had RS in the serial, I believe, for Raymond Sassia.
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Great one to have!!! I really like the stocks that are on it. Are they marked as to maker? Bob
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07-07-2017, 09:36 AM
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Bananaman,
those are Herrets, an old American classic. The are very comfortable and I like them pretty much as much as my Nills.
Last edited by Andyd; 07-07-2017 at 09:39 AM.
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07-07-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
Bananaman,
those are Herrets, an old American classic. The are very comfortable and I like them pretty much as much as my Nills.
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I have 5 sets of Herretts myself. Just right for my hands. Bob
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09-15-2018, 07:55 AM
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09-15-2018, 03:07 PM
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Great looking gun. Would be nice to own one.
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09-15-2018, 03:29 PM
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Very cool!
Now on the subject of "over runs" of a special or contract that led to oddities here and there... the SCSW speaks of 4-inch Model 19-3 over runs from the Texas Rangers Commemoritive guns. So we'd be looking for a 4-inch 19-3 that looks like a run of the mill 19 but with the half-shaved trigger guard.
As I had a Texas Rangers model for quite some time (I no longer have it), I always find myself staring at trigger guards any time I spot a 4-inch Model 19.
Anyone ever actually seen one of these odd over runs?
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09-15-2018, 03:29 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong..... I know you will .... but .....IIRC the total number of fixed sighted 19s is in the 500-600 range.
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09-16-2018, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM-BAM
Correct me if I'm wrong..... I know you will .... but .....IIRC the total number of fixed sighted 19s is in the 500-600 range.
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There were 3,826 fixed sighted revolvers in 2 1/2 and four inch barrel length made in 1987 for a Peruvian police contract that was later partially cancelled and about 1,600 guns were sold on the civilian market, the model 19P and 500 three inch models for France.
I had a four inch Peruvian model that had a canted barrel and did not group well, got rid of that in a hurry.
Last edited by Andyd; 09-16-2018 at 07:28 AM.
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09-16-2018, 07:33 AM
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Banned
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Very nice!
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09-16-2018, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyd
There were 3,826 fixed sighted revolvers in 2 1/2 and four inch barrel length made in 1987 for a Peruvian police contract that was later partially cancelled and about 1,600 guns were sold on the civilian market, the model 19P and 500 three inch models for France.
I had a four inch Peruvian model that had a canted barrel and did not group well, got rid of that in a hurry.
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Good to know..... guess I was just "IIRC" the 3"guns. I've got three 3" 66s; two -3 and a -4..... always wanted a 3" 19
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02-12-2019, 11:57 AM
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Awesome thread. As a proud Model 13 3" owner and believer that it may just be the most perfect revolver ever made, I look forward to collecting a few more variations of the fixed sight 3" K frames.
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02-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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I have heard of such things but have never actually seen one. As others have noted I believe they are vERY rare on this side of the pond. I do really like 3" K-frames and own three of them. I would happily snag a Model 13 3" if I could find one in decent condition at a reasonable cost.
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02-12-2019, 10:16 PM
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was just thinking..... buy a 13 or 65 and a 19/66 snub barrel and make your own.……. just a thought.
I think my search begins.
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02-13-2019, 12:00 AM
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Fixed sight K frame. 357. Perfect carry gun IMO
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