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Old 07-12-2017, 03:52 PM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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Default Ever Hear of a .22 LR Tumble?

So I just had to shoot my 17-3 8 3/8" that I received a few months ago. Remington Blue Label standard velocity. At 5 yards nice group little left so I adjusted to right. Shot 18 more right on. Moved back to 10 yards and this is what I got. I have shot Model 41's and Ruger Target Models and have never seen a .22 LR tumble. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-12-2017, 03:59 PM
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Heavy leading would be my first guess but the 5 yard group didnt tumble. Maybe that ammo is specifically for rifles and even 8 3/8 is too short to get it to stabilize it.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:05 PM
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Great for forehead work.........
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:06 PM
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Default Never seen that...

Sometimes I've been fooled by the crummy paper they use in targets, but you had clean drilling at 5 yard, so I wouldn't think the paper is at fault. It looks like you've got bona fide keyholing there.

To me they should drill as clean at 10 yards as five, but it's probably not the ammo because you shot clean holes the first time again. i do suspect a fouled barrel and maybe try another ammo.

If you barrel is a loose fit on the ..22 bullet it may not be spinning correctly and starts to tumble after the first few yards. Or fouling could keep the bullets from catching in the grooves of the rifling and not imparting enough spin.

Definitely clean the thing. That is the cheapest route.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:09 PM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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It only had about 30 rounds fired before I moved back. The two in the black looked good then it went bad.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:20 PM
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Got to admit, 22 tumbling seems rare. Still, as with any trouble shooting attempt, you'll need to change one variable to get more data. Suggest you clean the gun, then go out with a few other brands, bullet styles and see if they do the same. It could be unique to that ammo (or not).
p.s. While your cleaning, I would check timing and barrel interior/ crown.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:32 PM
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A short while back I made the decision to change to 22LR for edc because of the arthritis in my hands.. There is a long thread about that on the forum. As part of that decision I did an enormous amount of research into the advantages and deficiencies of 22 LR. I am referring to research well beyond gun blogs and YouTube. I learned things I had never known.

One thing that could easily be the cause of the tumble is the relationship of barrel length, powder charge, and bullet weight. Here is how I think that could apply in this case.

We know that velocity is critical to bullet path and performance. We also know that to gain full velocity a bullet must be in the barrel long enough to get a full powder burn but much longer as it will diminish velocity. So barrel length is always a factor in shooting. But we don't often think about bullet weight in that equation.

I learned that from a handgun with say a 3.5 inch barrel a 40gr bullet might fly perfectly true to the target, but a sixty grain bullet might not because the powder burn was not adequate in a short barrel to het the spin needed for stability. While that heavier round might be fine in a rifle length barrel or even a 6 inch barrel hand gun, it underperform in a shorter barrel.

This is often exhibited in gel tests of RN 22 LR ammo from handguns. The bullets frequently tumble in the gel because they loose velocity quickly and that means the spinning decreases.

I would therefore suggest that the OP's proublem is directly related to the to one or a combination of the the three factors of barrel length, bullet weight, and velocity achieved out of the barrel.
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Old 07-12-2017, 04:38 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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The only .22s I have seen to tumble were from a leaded barrel fouled by cheap ammo.
Check your bore, try a different brand.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:07 PM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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I have thousands of CCI SV for my 41 but they are the same type of bullet. Maybe I'll try some hotter stuff.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleiss1 View Post
I have thousands of CCI SV for my 41 but they are the same type of bullet. Maybe I'll try some hotter stuff.
I shoot CCI Mini MAG RN and HP but I carry CCI Velocitor a high velocity 40 grain HP. It combines the assets of both the Mini Mag loads with extra speed.
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Old 07-12-2017, 05:21 PM
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I'd also suggest a good barrel cleaning, but I'd also suggest trying some different brands and types of ammo to see if it makes any difference. Strikes at five and ten yards sure shouldn't be that different!
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:50 PM
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CCI 40 gr Standard vel will group under a 1/2" at 50 ft. from my IZH 35 bullseye gun. It's what I rely on for accuracy in match league shooting.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:49 PM
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Yes, I have experienced almost exactly that... I was shooting my Ruger 22/45 LITE with American Eagle 40gr ammo. It seemed a portion of the box was either spotty or no lube on the bullets. It leaded the barrel up quite quickly. I cleaned the barrel and got slivers of lead on the initial patches. After a quick thorough cleaning and switching to a better brand shooting went back to normal. I used a spray lube on that box of bullets and used them up on the next trip to the range in a different firearm.
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Old 07-13-2017, 12:36 AM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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Should this forcing cone have a little bevel?
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Old 07-13-2017, 01:15 AM
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I would think that your barrel should have a bevel or chamfer so allowing the lead 22rf bullets to be guided into the barrel. Frank
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:15 AM
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paper target stapled tight to a cardboard backer?
Or leading.
Start simple.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:11 AM
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Bulge in bore near muzzle? That or severe leading. Forcing cone looks OK in those photos, but a close up might help. If it's not spewing lead out the gap, probably not the culprit.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:53 AM
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Take a Q-tip and run it around the crown on the barrel, look for any spots that grab strands of cotton.
Clean the barrel with a lead removal solvent or Lewis lead removal tool then check rifling.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:23 AM
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When you are running a snug patch down the bore is it a smooth push or can you "feel" any interruptions. There could be a ring in the bore, from a a squib load, or you may be able to find leading that way. It looks like your barrel throat has a slight chamfer, as much as I see in my K22's.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:52 AM
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Had a Model 41 start doing that @ 50yds . Had the barrel relined by Alex Hamilton . Now it'll put 10 Aguila SE into 3/4" @ 50yds .
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:21 AM
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I've seen .22 LR 's tumble out of a friends Model 18 4" Revolver. After we got home I checked the Barrel and it had enough Lead in it to make fishing sinkers!!! He had just bought the vintage M18 and failed to clean it before the Range session.

After we spent a good while cleaning it out (I had to use JB Bore Cleaner because of the severity of leading) the barrel was like new again. Now it is fine and no evidence of tumbling anymore. I doubt the prior owner ever cleaned the damned thing!
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:21 AM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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I'll give it a good cleaning today and see what I find. Thanks for all your input on this.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:23 AM
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I too have had 22 tumbling issues recently, in my case from an older 4" Dan Wesson Model 22. It seems like some 22s have shallower rifling than others, so as in my case, fouling builds up quick and fills the grooves. I made the choice to trade the DW for a 17-9 in the end, though I could manage the bullet tumble issues by keeping the bore thoroughly clean and de-leaded, and by using jacketed HV ammo instead of SV lead round-nose.

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Old 07-13-2017, 04:59 PM
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Cleaned it up today. There doesn't appear to be any bevel on the forcing cone. Appears to be a little divot at 7 o'clock. Anyone know if this could be reamed a little?
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:38 PM
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I had a new SP 101 in .22LR that started keyholing bullets on the 3rd cylinder (8 shot cylinder, so after about 20 rounds). I cleaned it when I got home and got impressive chucks of lead out of it.

Ruger blamed the ammunition. So I shot it again with the CCI ammo they recommended. They grudgingly agreed to give me an RMA but noted that they had stopped providing shipping labels so I would have to pay for shipping up front ($75 next day air). I included the receipt in the box with the revolver per their instructions. I also included test targets and a detailed description of the problem (which should have helped even the dumbest of them to identify the improperly cut forcing cone.

The revolver showed up 2 week later with a note that they had "adjusted the ejector star", which of course had nothing to do with the problem. Sure enough it leaded the barrel and key holed bullets after another couple cylinders.

I called Ruger again and they agreed to give me another RMA number. I asked about reimbursement and they said talk to the business office. The business office said 6 weeks to process a receipt for reimbursement. I called Ruger back and said I already had $75 invested ins hipping and I wasn't going to pay to ship it back after they failed to even address the problem the first time. They sent me a label and sad they would ensure one of the supervisors looked at it when it arrived.

A 2 weeks later, they advised me that it was "non-repairable" and gave me the option of refunding my purchase price, provided I send them a receipt or they could send me a new one if I provided an FFL for them to send it to. I opted for a new revolver Fast forward a month, no reimbursement, and no new revolver. The business office indicated they did not have the receipt - the repair person apparently lost it - so they could not reimburse me. The customer service department confirmed they'd ship me a new revolver - next time they made a new batch of them. It ended up taking me six months total before I had a revolver that would shoot and then the accuracy was very mediocre.

I traded it on a Model 17 and have never regretted it.

I don't buy new Ruger revolvers anymore.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:54 PM
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Call S&W, let them deal with it.
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Old 07-13-2017, 11:48 PM
kleiss1 kleiss1 is offline
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Call S&W, let them deal with it.
It was made in 1978 I think. I don't think they care at this point.
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:06 AM
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Step one use different ammo- Remington ammo is notorious for horrid quality control and excessive leading even after a limited amount of ammo. I have multiple .22's that shoot well except when Remington ammo is used. Do nothing to the gun until you use other ammunition.
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