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Old 07-19-2017, 05:48 PM
Al W. Al W. is offline
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Default Which 38 special revolver for Bullseye ?

Hi guys,
I was at the range today shooting my model 14.
Its coming along.
I was getting some good results in single action .
After I shot 50 rounds single I shot a couple dozen rounds double action . At this point of course my game is way way off in double action.
I noticed that one of the most experienced guys was watching me as I was shooting DA and when I was leaving the range he pulled me aside and told me that my 14 was not going to be the best gun for shooting DA and that I should leave it as it is and shoot the 14 SA as it was intended , that I should not modify the gun for DA.
Fair enough says I and I ask what he would suggest to modify for DA shooting with 38 special with the S&W revolver.
He thought a model 10 would modify well . I suppose that would work.
What do you folks think ?
What model S&W 38 special would you suggest I adjust and or modify for DA fire ?
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:52 PM
nedlate nedlate is offline
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I am not sure what that fellow was talking about! The Model 14 is a great gun for shooting double action. I shoot all my revolvers double action. What modifications were you thinking of doing? I put a spring kit in and keep the gun clean. Nice trigger and you just need to practice to shoot better.
Ed
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:00 PM
Al W. Al W. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedlate View Post
I am not sure what that fellow was talking about! The Model 14 is a great gun for shooting double action. I shoot all my revolvers double action. What modifications were you thinking of doing? I put a spring kit in and keep the gun clean. Nice trigger and you just need to practice to shoot better.
Ed
Yes, the conversation was a bit of a seance but he's an experienced guy so I don't discount his comments.
He was saying that the trigger pull is very high in DA for single handed target shooting in the model 14 and that if I wanted to shoot double handed I might get by with it ,but unless I modified the gun, basically doing some stoning of the trigger parts and changing a spring or two, I suppose, I was going to have a hard time shooting in the 1 hand posture with the stock model 14. Or something to that effect.
I'm trying to shoot single handed Bullseye style. Which I can manage SA.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:07 PM
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I don't get his line of thought. Both the Models 10 and 14 are basically K-Frame Smith & Wesson revolvers. I have examples of both on hand and the double-action trigger pulls are fundamentally the same.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:23 PM
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It seems to me he was referring to shooting BE, which is shot one-handed, but using the gun in this case, in DA. Revolvers were traditionally shot SA in BE. The 14 is great for shooting DA, but not for shooting BE in that way.

Last edited by GyMac; 07-19-2017 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:37 PM
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Hi Al,

Let me try to wade in. The shooter that advised you is probably an old time bullseye shooter. Back when NRA 2700 matches were popular, and before the Model 52 and the Colt National Match 1911 in 38 Special were introduced, the K38 Masterpiece and the Colt Officer's Model Match ruled the ranges and were shot almost exclusively one handed and single action. Generally, K38s shot in this type of competition were outfitted with the 3Ts (target: trigger, hammer, and stocks). If you are trying to shoot a K38 that has a target trigger in double action, you can be handicapping yourself.

Typically, you will find K38s in one of two packages: equipped with the 3Ts for target, or without for non-target shooting. A non-3T K38 has service (magna?) stocks, the narrow service hammer and trigger. While 2700 was the single action game, PPC was the double action game. From what I have read, when PPC revolvers were built, the 'smiths usually started with Model 10s, never Model 14s.

I think that the advice offered was offered based on this type of history.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:45 PM
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I sometimes feel like the only person who regularly shoots his good ol' Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers in single-action mode. Single-action use of these revolvers has become a dirty word since the rise of the internet firearms forum.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
I sometimes feel like the only person who regularly shoots his good ol' Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers in single-action mode. Single-action use of these revolvers has become a dirty word since the rise of the internet firearms forum.
Shoot mine that way also.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:52 PM
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Most everyone using a revolver for Bullseye matches uses SA only for slow and timed fire, and some are good enough to use SA for rapid fire (about two seconds per shot). However, at the time I left the Bullseye game, virtually all top-level shooters were using a .45 Auto for both Centerfire and .45 stages. Most everyone shot better scores with a .45 than with a Colt or S&W .38 revolver.

No idea what most Bullseye shooters are using for the Centerfire stage these days. it has been over 30 years since I shot Bullseye matches. I was one who switched from a Model 14 to a .45.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:15 PM
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I first tried it 30 years ago and took a Model 14 and Model 17 to the match. Had a good time and won on occasion at the local level.

Doesn't mean I'm a hot shot.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:25 PM
Al W. Al W. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrrifleman View Post
Hi Al,

Let me try to wade in. The shooter that advised you is probably an old time bullseye shooter. Back when NRA 2700 matches were popular, and before the Model 52 and the Colt National Match 1911 in 38 Special were introduced, the K38 Masterpiece and the Colt Officer's Model Match ruled the ranges and were shot almost exclusively one handed and single action. Generally, K38s shot in this type of competition were outfitted with the 3Ts (target: trigger, hammer, and stocks). If you are trying to shoot a K38 that has a target trigger in double action, you can be handicapping yourself.

Typically, you will find K38s in one of two packages: equipped with the 3Ts for target, or without for non-target shooting. A non-3T K38 has service (magna?) stocks, the narrow service hammer and trigger. While 2700 was the single action game, PPC was the double action game. From what I have read, when PPC revolvers were built, the 'smiths usually started with Model 10s, never Model 14s.

I think that the advice offered was offered based on this type of history.
Yes, I believe you are 100% correct and thanks for your comments.
This is what he was driving at I'm sure.
I was going off to work when he launched into this discussion and didn't have the 20 minutes it was going to take at that time. Thanks for the explanation .
I'm going to look into this PPC revolver thing .
I like the challenge of shooting the revolvers and shooting DA is definitely a challenge .
My Model 14 is a 3T .
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:48 PM
mtgianni mtgianni is offline
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Most old time modifications for Bullseye included a new barrel, sights, and trigger work. It made more sense to start with a model 10 than a 14 as you could sell the 14 for more $$ that you could put to the build. I shot with a stock 14 for a few years and was not handicapped once I learned holdover for my loads. PPC sights were easier.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:16 PM
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If you're going to replace the barrel and sights it makes sense to start with the cheapest option. A model 14 is a model 10 but with target sights and a longer barrel. The model 14 can also come with the 3T's as mentioned above. A model 10 converted to a PPC revolver is like a model 14 on steroids.

I dislike the target trigger for double action shooting.
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:49 AM
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In our revolver Bullseye league there are a number of model 14s in use. Most are shot in single action mode including myself, but I have a SAO kit in mine. A couple of guys have guns with action jobs done by Bill Davis from years ago. They have smooth, narrow triggers and "bobbed" hammers. The actions are like silk and very light to pull. (They out shoot me in timed and rapid fire all the time.) I believe Frank Glenn could do the same double action job today and if your serious about shooting "Bullseye" style that would be the way to go.
Just my 2 cents worth and I won't even send you a bill;
Mike
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Old 07-20-2017, 12:51 PM
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Before you do anything , invest in a proper Target Trigger job by a known pistol smith. Here in Louisiana I had Clark Custom Guns do Target Trigger jobs on a S&W 38 special revolver (a custom barreled model 64) and a Ruger MKII 22 LR.
The trigger jobs made a world of difference especially in DA mode for rapid fire . I shot NRA Bullseye back then , slow and timed were OK with a factory trigger but rapid fire is where the DA Clark Custom Target Trigger job shined ! It was worth every penny and still makes me smile when I shoot them .
Gary

Last edited by gwpercle; 07-20-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:30 PM
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There's gotta be a reason it's called MASTERPIECE.
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:30 PM
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Default Distinguished Revolver

With the recent addition of the Distinguished Revolver matches the S&W mod 14 is making a comeback in bullseye circles.

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Old 08-11-2017, 10:46 AM
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For double action shooting a standard width trigger with the serrations ground off the trigger face and polished smooth is the preferred choice. The Mod 14 was designed and built with Bullseye in mind.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:41 PM
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You would probably be better advised to ask your question at the bullseye forum, or at least search their archives. The subject of DA shooting has been a regular topic:

Double action - Need Help With Revolver Double Action

But, DA in bullseye can be done, has been done, and several folks continue to do so. The K-38 is a fine choice. A trigger job can help, but it's not essential. Heck, I've shot timed/rapid with a S&W M29 using the Lyman 429348 wadcutter over a light charge of Bullseye in full length 44 magnum brass (not 44 special).

Another post here is correct in stating that, since the introduction of the Distinguished Revolver Matches, revolver use in Bullseye has increased. That really says something as, by pretty much every other metric, bullseye is on somewhat of a decline. Even attendance at Camp Perry was way down this July.

Best Regards,
Jim
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:23 PM
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A firearms instructor I had was acquainted with a lot of the old bullseye shooters, and he said the the common thread among the best shooters was the amount of time they spent practicing with dry firing.

I don't know if it's just me, but the accuracy I've had with my (many) old school model 10's has been a lot more variable from gun to gun than with with my K-38 Masterpieces (whether Combat or model 14 or model 15.) The Masterpieces just seem to be consistently more accurate, though I would take that as a rule of thumb rather than a formula.

But I'm not a competitive shooter. If the fellow you were talking to gets good results (winning) then he's someone worth listening to.
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:29 AM
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To answer your question, Bullseye course of fire does have three stages of fire, the 22 RF stage, the "centerfire" Stage, and the 45 stage. This is 90 rounds, and considered a "short course", as the full course is three times each of these stages, for 270 rounds, referred to as the 2700 Course of fire, (the total possible score). On each one of the stages, you fire a slow fire, a timed fire (2 runs at 20 seconds each) and Rapid Fire ( 2 runs at 10 seconds each). On the full official course of fire, the Slow fire is shot at 50 yards, and the Timed And Rapid shot at 25 yards. Very often local matches shoot all at the 25 yard distance. When all shot at 25 yards the slow fire is supposed to be shot at the reduced size target.

In practicality, most local clubs shoot 30 round or 90 round matches, but only seldom the full 2700 match. All the action shooters won't stand still for that much time.

Where in the 50's, 60's, and even into the 70's Bullseye was a predominate course of fire at most clubs, it has now faded to a seldom fired match giving way to the action shooters. But, keep in mind that bullseye is the foundation for learning how to shoot accurately in competition, which most action shooters seldom learn how to do, as they are mostly concerned with speed and not fine accuracy.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:05 AM
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I began my 2700 bullseye match shooting in 1968.

Already at that time it was extremely rare to see a revolver shooter on the firing line locally and just about non existent at the Camp Perry National Matches.
I shot a High Standard M107 in the 22cal matches and a pair of Al Dinan accurized 45cal Pre 70 Colt 1911 government model for center fire and the 45 matches.

Colt Gold Cups were almost equally as rare as revolvers because of their poor 50yd slow fire performance.

For Police Combat matches I had 2 Pre Model 14.It was rare to see someone shooting a Python and usually the Python shooter had an S&W at the next match.A lot of custom built S&Ws with Bomar ribs could also be found.
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