What would the options be for an FBI agent to carry during this period? The gentleman in question was a lawyer primarily assigned to forensics in the DC office He wasn't seriously into guns - from daughters who have zero interest.

Thanks, Jerry

I would wager a Colt Detective Special/Agent/Cobra or S&W J-frame. That goes back far enough it could even be an I frame, I think.

The most common gun for street agents in that period, I think, we a 4" barreled Model 10 S&W. Also, the field agents might have had Model 13s but for a guy in the laboratory and doing "CSI" type of work I'd surely guess a snubby.

A K frame snub is possible, too. I would have to look them up to see when they were available but, surely, during those 25 years there were some.

There are some historical websites you can check to be certain.

One of my instructors in community college was a retired FBI agent 1942-1962. He carried a Colt 4” all his career. His retirement gift was a S&W model 19 2 1/2 “


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Wheel guns are real guns too.

Here is a convenient overview:

American Rifleman | A History of FBI Handguns

My next door neighbor was an FBI Agent when I lived in Illinois in the 1980s. As I remember it S&W did a special run of their issue gun(S&W Model 13?) that the Agents could buy with their ID engraved on it. He had purchased one and I remember handling it briefly when he received it but this was over 30 years ago.
Jim

The SA I met briefly in 1978 carried a 2.5" bbl Model 10.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Thanks, big help :-).

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

I bought an early Model 66 4" with holster from a retired FBI agent who stated he carried it quite regularly in the 1970's. I would have to suppose it was a personal weapon, though.

First agency issue was Colts Official Police 4" barrel in 1934.
Last agency issue revolver was model 13 3" barrel.
Quite a few issued and authorized revolvers in between.
Some of their better choices IMO were the model 10 4",
the model 19, and the model 13.

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In Omnia Paratus

I began LEO in 1962. My agency sent me to a FBI Training school. The issue FBI service revolver at that time was a Colt and Smith and Wesson .38 spl six shot revolver with a four inch barrel (blued).

The Bureau standard issue handgun has always been a full sized gun - in the time frame you specify it would be the Colt Official Police or the Smith M&P (later the Model 10 and Model 13). The first real nod to concealability was the 2 1/2” Model 10 and then the 3” Model 13, both with round butts.

When I became an agent in 1991 the 1076 had just flamed out and my class was issued Sig 226s off the DEA’s contract. Even at that relatively late date the POW (privately owned weapon) list was a thing to behold - any steel framed S&W .38 or .357, stainless or blue, with a barrel between 2 and four inches was good to go. J-frames (known is Bu-speak as “five-shots”) were very popular, as were 2 1/2” Model 19s and 66s.

A lot of the older guys still carried their 4” Model 10s. The common practice was to allow retiring agents to buy their guns for a nominal amount - I think a Model 10 was $120. This changed about 1993 and since then all issued guns were turned back in. Most were destroyed. Once I requested some role-player Simunition guns for a hostage negotiation class and I got a Pelican case with 12 4” Model 10s, their diamond magnas painted bright orange and the cylinder sleeved so they couldn’t take real ammo.

The only Colt I ever saw in an agent’s holster was a 4” Trooper carried by a grumpy dinosaur who had it grandfathered in since the 70s.

Revolvers haven’t been authorized at all since the end of 2000. The POW list has shrunk to a couple of Glocks, and I believe those will go away soon.

I was lucky that my POW Sig P220 kept getting grandfathered in and I could carry the same gun my entire career.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

I was a cop in a jurisdiction just outside Washington, DC from 1968 - 1997 and every agent I ever met carried a 4” Model 10, some backed it up w/a J frame. I’m not sure what they carried after they phased out their revolvers.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I visited the Dallas field office about 1960, as a HS field trip. I was the only student especially interested in guns, and they let me into the gun locker.

They had a few five-inch Model 27's or pre 27's with really slick actions and four-inch Model 10's, all standard barrels.

Later, an agent spoke at my school on Career Day. I asked about his gun. It was a Model 49 Bodyguard, left in his car.

I once assisted an agent looking for a fugitive wanted for interstate flight and car theft. He was a new guy, very glad of the help. He had a four-inch M-10 and a sort of pancake holster. I'd recall the brand if anyone mentions it. He had a belt pouch with six spare rounds in sets of two.

I asked, and no Airweights were allowed, but otherwise, about any steel S&W in blue or stainless. No nickel. Had to be a .38 or .357.

This parallels what SIG P-220 already posted. By that time the DS was the only Colt still authorized.

The .357 ammo issued to agents who had permission to carry Magnum loads was Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. Dallas PD also issued that to officers wanting .357 ammo. It was VERY effective in actual gun fights.

The lead HP ammo in .38 usually worked, too. One Dallas cop using it killed six felons with his issued S&W M-64.

I shot on a range with an agent using a Glock M-19, but this was much later than the time period specified.

If I was writing a novel set in the time frame specified, I'd give the lab man a four-inch M-10, but he'd usually leave it at home or in his briefcase and wear a M-36 snub.

I visited the FBI Bldg. in 1957, with my father, on vacation. They had a really nice demo of the Tommygun and revolvers. I asked the escort agent about snubs. He said he had one that he carried in his overcoat in winter. Otherwise, the men he knew all carried four-inch Colt OP's or S&W M-10's.

One of those interesting boys' books by C.B. Colby dealt with the FBI and their guns were mainly Colt OP's and S&W M-10's. He showed Winchester .351 rifles & Remington .30 rifles and Winchester M-12 shotguns. Later shotguns were Remington 870's and the rifles were replaced with AR-15's or M-16's. . H-K MP-5 SMG's replaced Thompsons and a semi-auto H-K SMG in 10 mm was available. But this was well past 1975.

Women agents sued to carry J-frame S&W's instead of M-13's. I don't quite grasp this, as blued or stainless J-frames were already authorized.

S&W M-19's and M-66's were popular private purchases, and both 2.5 and four-inch barrels were used. In the 1986 shootout in Miami, Agent Mireles ended the battle with .38 lead HP's fired from his own M-586. But that's beyond your 1975 date, and Mireles was no lab man.

Retired spcl. agent Larry Wack shows up here occasionally. He's an FBI historian. You may have seen him on TV in a series about famous FBI cases.

He's mentioned Bureau guns. That corresponds with what I said above.

Why was the Colt Official Police the first issued? I suspect that Hoover asked NYPD, and that was their main gun.

Oddly, the Colt Police Positive Special seems not to have been popular. If the Detective Special was authorized, why not this longer barreled version? It'd be handier and easier to conceal than the OP.

J frames were authorized as POWs, but to get through the Academy they had to qualify with the issue gun, which I think was the Model 13 at the time. The ones who sued had been washed out of the Academy for not qualifying.

Everyone also has to qualify with the 870. The women in my class all did, but they sure had some purple shoulders.

When I was going through the hiring process, I had to sit in the local office and dry fire a Model 13 fifty times with each hand. I didn't question anything at the time, but I suspect it had to do with the suit.

I also had to affirm I could drive a car with a standard transmission, though I have never seen a Bucar with anything but an automatic. And I had to provide my hat size, which I happened to know from the Air Force. The other guy said - I don't know. Large?

I hoped it meant I was getting a fedora, but that never happened. It was just another Hoover hold-over, twenty years after his death.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Brad-

I think the hat size question had to do with Hoover not liking men that he considered to be "pin heads." That's what I've read...

Thanks for the clarification about the J-frames.

As for the shotgun, a former female agent who writes for women's magazines complained about the 12 ga. recoil in an article or book I read.

In actuality, agents of the BOI (later re-named the FBI) were permitted to carry guns much earlier than 1934. See the following:

FBI Firearms: Myth Of The '34 Crime Bill

and

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...0w/McHenry.JPG

Also see the inventory of bureau equipment turned in when Agent Jentzer left the bureau in 1919:

SA Roy McHenry - Evidence Of Early Handguns

As to why the Bureau adopted the Colt Police Positive, it had nothing to do with the NYPD. Director Hoover had a weapons committee study the question of not only handguns, but shotguns, rifles, and machine guns. His committee made recommendations, and the Director adopted the recommendations. See:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...nCommittee.pdf

Also, the first "issue gun" was not the Colt OP, but the Police Positive in 38 Special. There was apparently some push back as some wanted the .45 Auto. Another study was done, and the Bureau agreed to the 38 Special, but using 38/44 ammo with the 158 grain (mistakenly referred to as grams in the report) Keith wemi-wadcutter. Colt guaranteed the Police Positive for use with the 38/44 ammo. See the following, and note the velocity of the 38 Special, 1125 fps:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ith+bullet.pdf

Clyde Tolson took the side of the agents against Hugh Clegg, who only wanted the new Police Positives to remain in the offices, checked out as needed. Here is the Tolson letter, training memo, and the initial order from Colt so that enough Police Positives could be obtained from Colt to issue one to each agent. Note that the Bureau already had a large number in stock, and those that were in good or excellent condition were not replaced, but merely supplemented.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...lttraining.pdf

Here is the inventory of revolvers and holsters, from which Mr. Tolson determined how many Police Positives to order:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...stribution.pdf

Mr. Wack is a good friend, and I had the honor of consulting with him on the article concerning the myth that agents were forbidden the use of arms prior to the 1934 Act. That article is here:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...46/weapons.pdf

Mr. Wack's site is a wonderful tribute to agents of the Bureau, and it is a great way to spend hours reading while enjoying your early morning coffee. I encourage all of you to go there and explore.

Also, I encourage all of you to read the book American Agent by Melvin Purvis. The account of the Little Bohemia raid in that book is so detailed you can almost feel yourself freezing on the running boards of the only cars that didn't break down as the agents traveled from the little airport through the cold night on their way to the Lodge for the Dillinger shootout.

The letters and correspondence on Mr. Wack's historical G-Man site show a side of J. Edgar Hoover that is neither acknowledged nor understood by the media, or his loud and vociferous critics.

Good show Larry Wack!

Those were the days.... I did the tour of the Hoover building in fall 1980 and they still did the Tommy gun demo. A guy in classy slacks and an impeccably ironed white shirt and tie fired off a number of bursts into a silhouette target. We had to watch from behind glass, though. Probably bullet-proof

I think I read somewhere that the last revolver issued by the FBI was the Model 13 in .357, but that they mostly used .38 special +P 158 grain lead semi-wad cutters?

That grainy picture kind of looks like a 27 3.5". But then again it could be a 19 2.5"....

The issued load was originally the +P 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint, sometimes called "the FBI load". By the time I came in it had been replaced with the Federal +P+ 147 grain Hydra-Shok. Supposedly this was replaced by some Winchester version, but I never saw any.

As Texas Star noted, 145 grain .357 Silvertips were available in the office. Guys were supposed to get ASAC permission to load up with them, but a lot of agents just always carried them and figured they'd go ahead and take the heat if they had to use them.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Thanks all for the informative answers. I'm pursuing an answer through some photos that the sisters possess. My partner is one of them, and this search the first time she has expressed any interest in firearms of any kind.

Jerry

The FBI changes handguns more than any other Federal Agency I know of. A few years back, the American Rifleman published a list of official FBI handguns and the list was simply mind boggling! I can't recall how many times they changed but was at the point of absurdity! Not only did they change models but they changed back and forth from Revolvers to Pistols, and back and forth again & again.

So many loose ends, how does a holstorian rationalise them with each other :-)

Director Hoover authorised, in 1935, procuring Heiser and Clark holsters for the Police Positive and for the Super .38. The American Rifleman article singles out the Super .38 for them, for better penetration. And the Texas Rangers ditto plus the .357. Yet it was .45 ball ammo being compared with the .38 Special in at least one of these reports (thanks, Shawn).

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

In the 1970s the .38 load went from the 158 gr LRN either Remington or W-W to the 158 gr LSWCHP+P. Only saw Federal or W-W in the LSWCHP.
For .357 it was either Remington or W-W 158 gr LSWC. Non-HP.
Pictured below from left to right are the Remington LSWC, W-W LSWC, and W-W LSWCHP+P.
SAs were to carry the .38 load in the firearm but could carry the .357 as a reload.
The gun vault had a few Model 27s in 5", Colt 1911 in .38 Super, and S&W Model 49. Those could be checked out by a SA for special assignments where they felt they needed something other than their issued or POW.
Probably the most popular POW were a J frame S&W, D frame Colt and a 2-1/2" Model 19. Autos were not authorized at that time either on duty or off duty altho there were a few PPK and PPK/s being carried off the books. I knew one SA who carried a S&W 59 off duty after being involved in an off duty situation. Another had been a USMC Marine pilot with a lot of combat time carried a 1911. Knew another who carried a pair of Browning HPs in a shoulder holster one on each side.
Had a 1st office SA who bought a Model 27 3-1/2". He was a short guy just barely making minimum height and wasn't as big around as a pencil. Didn't look like he weighed 100 lbs. He tried carrying the 27 for several weeks and finally gave up. I think he wore out his waistband constantly pulling up his pants.

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183rd FBINA

Here is one to add to the mix with documentation.

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Just from casual observation, it seems to me that Colt was the major supplier of "duty" guns to agencies prior to ww2. However, after ww2 it seems like S&W took over that market.

I'm not sure what the cause of this would be, but I could certainly believe poor management at Colt mainly pursing military contracts and ignoring the rest.

There are some mistakes in that article, mainly in the failure to differentiate between issued guns (Welcome to the FBI. Here’s your gun. Don’t lose it.) and FBI guns that sat in the vault until requested. I was an agent for 25 years and during that time we changed from Sig 9mms to Glock 40s. At the very end of that time we switched from Glock 40s to Glock 9mms. Not a lot of changes. I carried the same gun for 25 years.

Revolvers were standard issue until the end of the Model 13 era. A lot of the semi-autos in that article were guns kept in the office and issued out as requested. Charles Winstead killed John Dillinger with a .45 1911 borrowed from the Chicago office. He gave it back and its serial number was never even recorded. I hope somebody pinched it before it got the chop. Once the standard issue became a semi-auto we never switched back to revolvers, though many were grandfathered in and many more were allowed as POWs.

HRT changed from Hi Powers to a double stack 1911. Division SWAT had Springfield 1911s for a while. Now they all have Glocks. Prior to that SWAT guys had a mix of Smith 9mms. I believe Jerry Dove launched the much-discussed Silvertip in Miami from a 459. Now: Glocks.

There was a loooooong list of personally owned guns approved for quite a while, but that is down to (you guessed it) Glocks.

Once you weed out vault guns and SWAT guns, the 80 plus year history of FBI issued handguns boils down to: Colt .38 revolver, Smith K-frame .38/.357 revolver, 10mm Smith, 9mm Sig, .40 Glock, 9mm Glock.

I know one State Police agency that changes out all their guns every five years.

The old guns sometimes live a little longer, too. I mentioned the Pelican case of Model 10s I got once. A year or so before I retired the training folks had us run around and shoot each other with Simunitions. (Trigger warning to Sig and MP5 fans - shield your eyes!)







I know for most of us here, who scrimp and save and eat ramen noodles to afford a new gun it is akin to blasphemy, but the big Gov looks at guns as a minor and somewhat necessary expense. They wear out, they get replaced. Something new comes along, they get replaced. In the grand scheme of things, guns are chump change.

Ammo - that's another thing altogether. I'll let you peek behind the curtain, as someone who was an FBI firearms instructor as an additional duty for most of my years as a hump agent - we changed to 9mm because it is cheaper. Once the case could be made 9mm was as effective as .40, the handwriting was on the wall. 11,000 agents, each of whom shoots 1.000 rounds a year to remain qualified, plus all the new agents, who shoot 10K rounds each during training, plus SWAT and HRT who use ammo like many of us use air, equals a LOT of ammo. So much that even a few cents savings per case makes a huge difference in how much you can buy. Thanks to 19 idiots with boxcutters 16 years ago, the ammo budget has stayed the same each year, so as to pay for computers and people to squint at them. I happen to agree with the switch to 9mm, though I carried a .45 for my whole career.

To further put things into perspective, those same 11,000 agents each have a take-home car which is replaced at about 100K miles. Each has a gas card to fill up said car. Say each one puts 40 bucks a week into their car. That is $440,000 A WEEK in gas alone. We can forget about oil changes, car washes, and tires for now. Let say we pay $400 for each new gun. Hint: WE DON'T. That is 1100 new guns every week, from now until the end of time, just in what the Bu pays for gas.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

Shawn McCarver-



Great post. Lots of good reading in there.

The ballistics comparisons are interesting. I think if my .38s were doing 1150 out of my 442, I'd know it. Ahh, the good old days. Imagine the furor if that was released now in the internet age.

"Better than a .45...inconceivable!"

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Because of the metric system?

I think your observation is a well-established fact. A number of factors have been blamed (or credited, depending on your viewpoint), with that development. IMHO a lot comes down to the simple fact that S&W was purely a revolver company, Colt, at least in the 20th century with the arrival of J.M. Browning’s designs, was not any more (despite its beginnings). Depending on one’s sympathies, that can be called either versatility or lack of focus.

Another factor I consider important was the reliable availability of Victory models to police departments during the war years, compared to the inability of Colt to keep to schedules and deliver Commandos as ordered. Since large federal agencies and big-city departments were most likely to need a continuing supply of new service guns during those years, any that the DSC switched to S&W out of necessity were particularly damaging to Colt and quite likely stayed switched after the war.

These two S.D. Myres holsters belonged to the SAC of the Houston Bureau office, I bought them from his brother in law after his passing. He sold them to me and supplied the above information after I received them so I will pass on the story as told to me. The holsters were made for the revolvers in them. I did buy the holsters and not the story, the story was thrown in at no charge.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

I helped John Farnam teach a rifle/handgun course a few years ago that included, among others, a bunch of deputy U.S. Marshals. We used up about 1000 rounds each of rifle and pistol ammo over 3 days. Most of the students used the cheapest ammo they could get, even handloads or, at best, cheap factory hardball. But the Marshals were all using gold plated hollowpoint duty ammo in their .40 Glocks and good stuff in the rifles too. We were all jealous! Great guys, by the way. We had a terrific time and everyone learned a lot.

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Everybody could shoot

I had a friend who's father was a retired FBI agent and a sitting judge. When I was 16 he told me his father was selling the Bodyguard revolver he carried as an agent- $50 and it was mine. My father said a 16 year old didn't need a snub nose revolver, I already had a Smith & Wesson .38 and I had no business buying that gun. I'm 65, dad turns 94 this month and I'm still working on forgiving him. The judge went on to become a senior U.S. District judge and served with distinction. Which one of you guys ended up with what should have been my revolver ?
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

The lowermost one is a Bianchi 5B knockoff so expecting that it has a Myres stamp on the backside, it was made after 1964 or so. That was Bill Myres' era. By '65 he had handed off the saddlery side to Harlon Webb who operated it for a decade, at which point both men retired. Which stamp is on the backside, with or without 'tex'?

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

The S&W model 10 with a 3" barrel was quite prized. I have a friend that bought his boss's model 10 he used when he was an agent. That model 10 was a 3" pencil barrel the only one I have ever seen. I have seen many 3" heavy barrels but not another tapered barrel. I also know agents were allowed to carry any 6 shot revolver that was at least .38 caliber. I have heard of many agents who carried 357 Magnums of different models. I also know of one former agent who carried a S&W model 57 41 Magnum. How do I know it was a 57? He did a presentation to my class when I was in Junior High School back around 1973.

If you want to know what a 38/44 feels like in a 442, get a box or two of Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman. "You don't have to get in front of it to figure out that it just went off."

Nobody mentioned the Crump leather works in Richmond that was supposedly popular with the graduates of Quantico??

Regards,

Tam 3

B.T Crump also provided the holsters for the Virginia State Police, Richmond City Police, Henrico County Police and many other departments in Virginia during the 1960s through the 1980s. I have seen many of their holsters and have a couple of their Border Patrol style holsters. I don't believe they are in business now. If they are all they are doing is saddles and riding tack.

The FBI holsters I saw were by Heiser. That applies to the time frame specified.

If an agent bought his own holster, Myres was probably the most likely maker. After they appeared, Bianchi probably did some business with agents, and Don Hume. The most serious gun people might have holsters by Gaylord or Seventrees or Ken Null.

In 1986 when I graduated from the FBI Academy, I was issued 18 rounds of Winchester 158 gr SWCHP .38 Special. 357 ammo was not supposed to be carried in the revolvers without special permission. It was authorized to carry as reloads. I carried 38's in the gun and 357's in my pouch. 357 ammo was Winchester 145 grain Silvertip.

My issue holster and ammo pouch were brown leather and made by Bucheimer We were also issued a single Safariland speed loader and black belt pouch for the loader.

On reaching my field office, I had 2 personally owned weapons approved for carry. A S&W Model 66 with 3" barrel and a Model 60 2".

While in the academy, I was told that Colts were dropped off the approved weapons list when the last Colt armorer retired from the Gun Vault.

Red, it has the Tex. I don't find it in catalogs up through 1972, I did find it in catalog number 80 as model 650. Frank LaCroix is the company owner and I believe the catalog is from 1977 as Mr. LaCroix cites 1897 as the founding date and says they have been in business for 80 years.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

I just purchased this yesterday. It is a S&W 13-3 with a 3 inch barrel. I was told it was an old FBI gun but have no documentation. It does have considerable holster wear.
The guy selling it wanted $450 for it. He came down only $10. for gas for driving to him. Came with the 2 speed loaders and HKS case. and box of 25 gold dot HP. The mechanics on it are excellent. I hope the pictures show up.
Hope i did okay on it.

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...can't beat a deal like that!!!

Was wonder for those of you in the know, exactly what round(s) is the FBI using right now...

Thanks...Bob

When I retired in 2016 the issued ammo was 9mm 147 grain Gold Dot, .40 180 grain Winchester bonded JHP Q4355, and .45 ACP 230 grain Golden Saber.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

As far as I could find from searching some the info from Doc Roberts, it is a standard pressure 147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2 (9mm). There were some issues with the first version, and it was replaced with some slightly different projectiles.

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NHI, 10-8.

Ran across this thread again, looking for, of all things, a thread about Seventrees and Null. Anyway . . .

I've been corresponding with several agents about identifying the holster the FBI issued mid'60s until the very late '70s, perhaps even 1980. That issue holster turns out to be the Bucheimer Sloan holster for the 4" M&P, which by 1980 was replaced by Bucheimer's Concealer, a pancake style with thumb snap (Sloan's retention theory turned out to be just that, a theory, and retention without a strap was a problem, ask Bill Rogers).

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Red Nichols The Holstorian

Here's what 3 Model 13s look like that actually are documented FBI issued revolvers. I was told years ago by reputable sources at Quantico that the rest of the FBI issued Model 13s currently reside in a hole dug for them after being destroyed by the Vault after mandatory turn in. How these three escaped are still a mystery but I'm not complaining.
Enjoy
Chuck

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SWCA1517 SWHF256
Rangers LTW!

WOW---THIS IS A VERY INFORMATIVE ARTICLE ! ! !

THANKS FOR POSTING THE LINK.....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

You did just fine, IMO, 9200! That revolver, whether an actual FBI issued one, is my personal favorite of all the handguns I'm aware of that they carried or issued. Not only did you buy the Model 13 with a 3" barrel for a very good price (and it looks like a nice one!), you got good extra stuff with it that is icing on your cake! That one will do to ride the river with! Congratulations!!

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So long ... Ken

I have a black basketweave Bucheimer Concealer for my 1982-vintage 3 inch Model 13-3. I don't believe either of them were FBI-issue but they make a nice set when I put magnas and a Tyler T-Grip on the gun. Almost feel like Efrem Zimbalist, Jr., when I wear them.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36