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Old 02-18-2018, 01:02 AM
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Default Ulster Defence Regiment L97A1 Revolver

I am trying to find more information on the attached revolver. These revolvers were issued to the Ulster Defence Regiment which was in in existence from around 1970 to 1992. They were given a British service designation of L97A1. They were used for personal defence of the Regiments service personnel. They came with the rubber grip as seen in the photo and .38 calibre. Does anyone know any more information such as:
1. Date of purchase of these revolvers.
2. Quantities purchased.
3. Disposal. These do not seem to have come up for sale on the market, unlike the .22 Walter PP L66A1 pistols that were sold off a few years ago.
4.Would the SWHF have any information in its archive concerning these revolvers.I may be able to get a couple of S/N's of examples shortly.
5. Exact factory number or description for this model.
Finally, these have been reported as having Belgium proof marks. Why this is so I dont know as the UK agent at this time was Parker Hale & Co Ltd.
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AlanD
Sydney
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:45 AM
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You will need a serial number to start with. S&WHF has not scanned documents close to 1970. Your best bet is to contact Roy Jinks to see if he remembers anything about the purchase.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:55 AM
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It appears to be a Model 36-1, the 3” heavy-barrel variant of the Chiefs Special.

The serial on the side of the topstrap is non-standard. The triple-alpha serials are a bit confusing, but based on available data in the Standard Catalog the AHF should fall into 1985, which fits your timeframe.

The catalog appears to contain no reference to this special order. Contacting Roy Jinks might indeed be your best bet.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:48 AM
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Let us know what you learn. That's an excellent gun; I've owned a couple.

I'm impressed they used that Pachmayr Presentation Compac grip, a favorite of mine.

Does anyone else here know if other UK forces used that model?

I've read that Queensland state police used this gun at one time, too. You may be able to learn more about that where you live than we'd find in the USA. That state is next to yours. I think you're in Sydney?

I'm talking about these Model 36-1's with three-inch barrels, not the M-10's with three-inch barrels used in New South Wales and Victoria.

Last edited by Texas Star; 02-18-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:11 AM
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When you can get serial numbers off a couple of examples, that would help Mr. Jinks research them. Any and all markings on them would also be very useful to him.

One thing he can't help with is their disposal, unless S&W bought them back which is very doubtful.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:50 PM
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Thanks for the reply's. A colleague in the UK is attempting to get a few more serial numbers from various museums in the UK.

Once I have these I will contact Mr Jinks. Any info I get will be posted here.

The Belgium proof mark thing is still a puzzle, perhaps some light will be thrown on this by Mr Jinks.

As to handguns being used in Australia by the police, all I see in NSW are Glocks. Not sure what plain clothes police officers carry as you never see the handguns.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:55 PM
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I believe that S&W's main importer was in Belgium and there was a large proof house there.
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Old 02-25-2018, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanDavid View Post
Thanks for the reply's. A colleague in the UK is attempting to get a few more serial numbers from various museums in the UK.

Once I have these I will contact Mr Jinks. Any info I get will be posted here.

The Belgium proof mark thing is still a puzzle, perhaps some light will be thrown on this by Mr Jinks.

As to handguns being used in Australia by the police, all I see in NSW are Glocks. Not sure what plain clothes police officers carry as you never see the handguns.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

Alan-

The S&W .38's I mentioned were used in past decades, and many were imported to the USA some years ago. The rest were destroyed.

The NSW guns had the state crest on them. Not sure about Victoria guns.

If you watch the old, Blue Heelers show on YouTube, the guns used were pretty accurate for the setting, in Victoria, from about 1996-2002 or so. Most by then were S&W M-10-6, with detectives having M-36 snubs. I think one detective had a M-19 snub. He shot a woman coming at him with a machete and there was some contention over that. It was a good shooting, but I guess all police shootings there generate more controversy than in the USA.

I think the issued .38 load in Victoria then was Winchester 125 grain softpoint, but read that elsewhere. I don't think they ever referred to ammo type on the show.

Lisa McCune was the eye candy among the cops, and I think that series basically launched her career as an actress. This was before, Sea Patrol. But I preferred the brunette detective gal in the last season or two.

Last edited by Texas Star; 02-25-2018 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 10:35 AM
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Alan,
I don't know anything about these but a few years ago I bought one of the Walther L66A1 pistols. In researching it I found the following statement about the proof marks on it:

"The guns were sent for proofing to the German federal armament proofhouse in Koblenz pursuant to some sort of reciprocal intergovernmental arrangement with the British, probably to avoid charges at the commercial proofhouse at Ulm. The number 129 under the eagle identifies the proof house officer. These guns were assigned a NATO stock number B 1 1005 99 964 300, but this appeared only on the boxes. None of the pistols had any markings identifying them as British issue."

Purely speculative, of course, but perhaps the British made a similar arrangement to have the S&W revolvers go through Belgium.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:04 PM
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The Imperial War Museum has AHF3143 in its collection.
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:25 PM
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Alan:

I noticed that in your original post you say that “these have been reported as having” Belgian proofmarks.

So I presume you don’t have access to pictures and there isn’t any confirmation that these are indeed Belgian proofs? They may well be, but my experience with people in general trying to interpret proofmarks makes me a bit wary without the evidence.
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
Alan,
I don't know anything about these but a few years ago I bought one of the Walther L66A1 pistols. In researching it I found the following statement about the proof marks on it:

"The guns were sent for proofing to the German federal armament proofhouse in Koblenz pursuant to some sort of reciprocal intergovernmental arrangement with the British, probably to avoid charges at the commercial proofhouse at Ulm. .....“.
Kevin:
A brief thread drift: This happened not to avoid the Ulm proofing, but the British military acceptance procedure. That‘s why these pistols don‘t have the broad arrow. The „Güteprüfdienst des Bundesverteidigungsministeriums“ (lovely term, isn‘t it) in Koblenz proofed German military guns; US collectors know that drooping wing eagle plus inspector number mostly from the Bundeswehr P1s. As a military acquisition for a NATO partner the British PP/PPKs didn‘t need Ulm proofing.

PS: Come to think of it, a similar reason could be behind these revolvers having gotten a non-British proofing treatment.

Last edited by Absalom; 02-25-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:55 PM
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Absalom, that makes more sense. For some reason the IWM photos aren't coming up for me but the description mentions the proof marks:

SMITH & WESSON 2. 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG 3. MADE IN U.S.A. MARCAS REGISTRADAS SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD, MASS. 4. Pachmayr trademark 5. AHF 3143 6. Liege proof marks & X5 343 & B19 7.
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Old 02-25-2018, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
Absalom, that makes more sense. For some reason the IWM photos aren't coming up for me but the description mentions the proof marks:

SMITH & WESSON 2. 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG 3. MADE IN U.S.A. MARCAS REGISTRADAS SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD, MASS. 4. Pachmayr trademark 5. AHF 3143 6. Liege proof marks & X5 343 & B19 7.
Indeed, the “Liege proof marks” is clear, and THOSE people I would trust to interpret them correctly

It would be interesting to know how the proofing was handled on other S&W revolvers imported to Britain in the same timeframe. For example, to my knowledge the London Metropolitan Police used the Model 10. Parker-Hale may have been the UK agent, but the acquisition may have gone through a Belgian importer; since the US is not a CIP member, the guns would have to be proofed upon arrival in Belgium, and since Britain is a member (just like Germany), they could then move on without further proofing requirements.
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:51 PM
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Maybe they didn't want UK Govt. markings on the guns used in N. Ireland in case it'd ID the bearer as British. That could get him killed if discovered with the gun while working in plain clothes.
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:47 PM
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Alan,
Any update? Serial numbers? I do not vouch for the accuracy of this article but it claims the Ulster Defence Regiment was really a secret assassination unit which used the S&W for such purposes: UDR men acted as covert British death squad | An Phoblacht
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
Alan,
Any update? Serial numbers? I do not vouch for the accuracy of this article but it claims the Ulster Defence Regiment was really a secret assassination unit which used the S&W for such purposes: UDR men acted as covert British death squad | An Phoblacht
“An Phloblacht” was the paper published by Sinn Fein, generally considered the IRA’s “political arm” while the armed struggle was still in progress. In the internal split of the IRA in the early 1970s, the paper specifically supported the faction that became the Provisional IRA. Probably a good idea to take this with maybe a soup ladle of salt

However, the connections between UDR members and loyalist terrorist organizations are indeed a matter of record, not just nationalist propaganda. I suspect, though, they were smarter than to use official issue British arms for any nefarious activities. After all, people weren’t stupid, and the absence of official army markings on these S&W guns, like on the Walthers, didn’t exactly make them undercover and unidentifiable.

Last edited by Absalom; 02-28-2018 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 03-05-2018, 05:02 AM
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So far I only have the two serial numbers, the one in the photo I posted and the Imperial War Museum one AHF 3143. I hope to get one or two more and will then contact Mr Jinks. I have now got a photo of the IWM revolver but its fairly low resolution so you can't see much detail.

The article I mentioned was from a talk that David Penn from the IWM gave to the SAWCA a number of years ago, so we know the Belgium proof mark will be correct, as quoted in the IWM description on its web site.

Will post again when I have another serial number.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:44 AM
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Alan,

The talk by Penn was documented in the S&WCA Journal Volume 26, Number 4, Winter 1992. It includes a picture of ANB8849 so there is another SN for you. Here is the relevant text:

"The last S&W to enter British Military service was the .38 Chiefs Special, or L97A1 as it is known. These are standard 3-inch commercial revolvers with Liege commercial proof marks, as are many S&W sold on the British market. They have Pachmayr grips. Their intended use was for bodyguard work by the Royal Military Police, and they were quite quickly superseded by 9mm self loaders. The only clue to their military use is the Army Weapon Number etched on the frame."

There is also a publisher's note as follows:

"This order was for 400 revolvers, shipped through the S&W Liege, Belgium office on March 28, 1896 [sic]."
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Old 03-05-2018, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
......
"The last S&W to enter British Military service was the .38 Chiefs Special, or L97A1 as it is known...... Their intended use was for bodyguard work by the Royal Military Police, and they were quite quickly superseded by 9mm self loaders. The only clue to their military use is the Army Weapon Number etched on the frame."
....
I was wondering about that. The early 1980s saw the introduction of the Walther P5 as the L102A1 by the British Army as a PPW, and an acquisition of these revolvers at the 1985 time indicated by the serial portends a short service career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwill1911 View Post
.....
There is also a publisher's note as follows:

"This order was for 400 revolvers, shipped through the S&W Liege, Belgium office on March 28, 1896 [sic]."
That is an obvious explanation for the Belgian marks. If S&W had its own European office, it would make sense to maintain it in Liege due both to the central geographic location and the presence of the needed proofhouse.
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Old 03-11-2018, 07:55 AM
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Thank you kwill1911 for the information in the article. I did get a copy of the article a number of years ago which I am having trouble finding. I did remember the bit about Belgium proof marks, but not the quantity of 400 which is the most important part.
Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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Old 03-12-2018, 10:14 PM
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My old Grandfather, who got out of ireland after the '16 a step ahead of the Black and Tans, said "Tis tru, dontcha know now, that the sun nivver sets on the British Empire, for ya cn't trust a Bloody Brit in the dark." true story. history, not politics.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:27 AM
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One more serial number has come to light. This special is in the collection at the Royal armories in Leeds, U.K.

ANB 8849

So now we have a total of three serial numbers.

AHF 3040
AHF 3143
ANB 8849

Would this last number be from around the same year of production as the first two?

Does anyone have a serial number to add? All these examples are in museum collections in the U.K, so it looks like none are in private ownership.

Regards

Alan David
Sydney
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