I've had a Model 36, a Model 642, and now this Model 60. I love the look and history behind the older ones, but I suck shooting them.

Here is my model 60. Made in 1975. It came with factory stocks numbered to gun. With only factory stocks, my middle finger got thumped by the trigger guard on every shot.

So I added a Tyler T grip adapter. No more thumping. No better accuracy.

Then I bought the Pachmayr Compac Professionals. No better accuracy.

I only shoot my 158 grain mild reloads, generally. But I have shot some 130 grain Winchester White Box. No difference in accuracy.

I know this is a close up defensive gun, and I know J frames take practice. But how much practice? 60 rounds today on this target at 20 feet. Most shot as if self defense and pretty quick. But at least 10 slow fire. Single action. Double action. Doesn't matter. Trigger finger is a bit raw.

Here is the gun in my hand and my grip. I've adjusted grip. Position of trigger finger. No difference.

What do I do? I have other guns to shoot, and get more enjoyment out of shooting them. The J frame is a sweet looking gun, but I suck with it. 20 feet is a joke to have groups like this.

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I didn't get better with them until I put a laser on one. Then it was pretty obvious that my trigger control was shoddy.

Yeah. I was better with a laser grip on the 642, but how bad can my trigger control be in single action? I remember dry firing the 642 with the grip on, and the dot didn't move much.

And the grip makes the gun much less concealable. At least my LG305 did.

With a 4" K frame, they're nearly going into one hole. Subcompact 9MM also dead on. Even the Bodyguard .380 that everyone complains about the trigger, much more accurate.

Agreed. I put a Laserlyte laser on my carry 442 and used that for dry fire practice.

I'd put the red dot on something 'bout 7 yards away and work on keeping the red dot on target all the way through the trigger pull and break.
Worked for me.

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Keep on Chooglin'

Can you get that same group if you turn the laser off?

I don't know... If you take that target and align the bullseye over your heart, I see a dead man.

Good enough in my book unless your getting paid to be better at it.

But a guess would be not to wrap so much of your trigger finger in the trigger may help pull it more right.

These were made as "belly" guns. It wasn't until the introduction of the laser that the useful range of these which was about 8-12', improved to 15-20'. When I started in law enforcement back in the early 70's the useful range of these was about 12'. The sights were rarely used, they are more a point and shoot gun. I love mine, and recently bought a new one after I sold my original model, which I sold to finance a semi-auto when law enforcement changed from revolvers. I love this revolver.

While your target will not win any prizes it is good enough to show you can defend yourself w/this J frame. Try standard paper plates at 3, 5 & 7 yards. Shooting as fast as you can empty the gun, combat reload w/a speedstrip or speedloader, and repeat. Slow down as distance increases. The goal is to keep all your rounds on the paper plate.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I'm right-handed. Every time I shot a target like that, it reminded me to change my grip on the weapon. Looking from above, I have to rotate the gun clockwise in my hand - i.e - put the butt closer to the meat of my thumb.

Mind you, I said "closer to", not "into" the meat of my thumb.

I also have to think about the way I contact the trigger, and concentrate on a straight pull.

Yeah. That pic was with my phone in one hand and gun in other. I've tried all different positions, from tip of finger down to first joint. No real difference.

What gets me is I am a very good shot. Not Hickock45 or anything, but fist sized groups at 20 yards no problem. I shoot the Bodyguard .380 much better.

That is with the laser off. I only used it for dry fire practice.

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Keep on Chooglin'

I use a model 36 for summer carry and I agree with a poster above. They were for 8-12 ft. Might say a last ditch firearm.Now the standard seems to be the famous 7 yards. Lasers have helped a lot as was mentioned.
I believe any body that can get groups like some of those pictured above have really done something. These guns aren't target guns and were never meant to be.
Personally, I think they should have come with a 3 inch barrel as standard. That extra inch does wonders in accuracy and bullet performance and is just as easy to conceal.

I recommrnd removing the serrations from the trigger, polish smooth, and try to find stocks fhat fit your hand, then practice.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Consider myself a pretty fair handgun shooter. Small J frames for me have always required the most investment in training and trigger time.
I've found them to be quite accurate, but require a little more from you as to adherence to fundamentals. Itty-bitty sights, small frame and grips and the miniscule sight radius all conspire against the shooter.

Stick with it, you'll be stacking rounds soon.

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Ret'd LEO
SWCA #2275

I have the model 638 for EDC. Although I don't really "enjoy" regular practice with it I consider it a necessary evil. I usually post my targets 3-5 yards away and am satisfied if I can hit them consistently & realize I'll never be nearly as good as Hickok 45.

I suggest you get a laser bullet (like from Laser Ammo) and practice with that. Much easier (and cheaper) to practice.

Trigger control. You need to learn trigger control. Squeeze the trigger, don't jerk it. Focus on the front sight. When shooting a short barrel snubby, trigger control plays a even more important factor on accuracy. Longer barreled revolvers are a little bit more forgiving. Snubbie not so much.

Adding a grip or laser is not a substitute for practice. Grab some snap caps and start dry firing practice around the house. Focus on an object across the room, aim and squeeze the trigger, when the gun goes "click"! Your front sight should still be on the object you're pointing at. I guarantee when you're pulling the trigger, that front sight is moving on you. Keep practicing.

My BUG was/is a Model 40 no dash. It's really hard to shoot. I can finally keep them all on the 7 yard pie plate after maybe 30 years of off and on trying. it never much bothered me though, I consider it primarily for "get off me" range. If I don't get them with the shot, I'll set them on fire with the muzzle blast. I use 158 grain LSWC bullets. You might try practicing with full wadcutters for a while. It's easy to get a flinch from a J frame, especially an alloy one like an Airweight.

Dry fire practice, maybe a two handed grip. I think j frames are an 'acid test'. Totally unforgiving and it's all up to the the shooter. If you improve you will have accomplished something.

With any other gun I've 'isolated' my trigger finger from my other two hands. But with a J frame as soon as I get to the trigger release, holding the small gun makes it shift ever so slightly. If I work on that I may surprise myself.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

J frames are among the most difficult handguns to shoot well.

They are small, have lousy triggers and poor sights.

I modify my j frames with a trigger job by someone who knows how (this isn’t a do it your self deal), I also have the serrations on the trigger removed and the trigger surface smoothed and radiused and add a Tyler t to the stock magnas.

It takes a good deal of practice, even with the modified gun, to shoot well.

The elements that need particular attention are the flash sight picture and double action trigger control: the firing stroke.

These aren’t used as target pistols: they’re self defense guns. Speed of use is a big part of the technique.

Laser sights are very slow although they will produce nice groups on the target.

I much prefer the sights (such as they are) on the gun. You needn’t align the sights precisely at sd ranges: but you must see your front sight when you shoot.

Try some J frame target grips by S&W, and use less trigger finger!!! Trigger control is everything when shooting a J frame. I agree with old cop, They were quite a few holes in the K5 area. I personally wouldn't want you shooting at me from 20 feet with it!

J-frames take a lot of practice. They are surprisingly accurate at 25 yards. Most people do it backwards with the laser sights and use them as a crutch during the learning phase. Learn to shoot first, then if you really feel the need for a laser sight, have at it. You'll likely find you have no use for one at that point.

Grips...larger grips negate the "concealed" aspect altogether. Learn to shoot with the grips that the gun came with. They really do work well, but it seems a lot of people don't take the time to get used to them.

As for grip adapters, everyone's hands are different, and there are exceptions to everything, but, grip adapters are usually more cosmetic than practical. They look neat, but don't expect them to help much, if at all, towards improved shooting.

I've seen some astonishing shots out of short barrel guns but I need at least a four inch to keep from embarassing myself.

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On the whistle draw and fire 6

You flinch at the moment you think the gun will fire. Doesn’t show with longer barrels at the same distances. It’s built into your muscle memory after years and years of getting by without the need to improve. I could demonstrate your fault to you in 10 seconds on the range . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Another vote for having the trigger face smoothed and radiused by a smith. I've done it to every revolver I've bought (I only buy them to shoot). At the same time I have the innards polished, and usually have a blaze orange insert put in the front sight, even on J-frames.

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Oh well, what the hell.

That's not really too bad. You're grouping. Just keep practicing.

Different hands get different results. I have found a Tyler to be a bit of a help on a RB steel J, but much more useful on a SB J, light or heavy. But that's with MY hands, probably small for a gun nut (L or XL to most glove mfrs). God only knows what would fit someone with normal or large hands, not that mine are abnormally small. Maybe try some Pachmayr Presentations, or S&W Target grips, which fit both RB and SB J frames.

You might also consider a Colt D frame (Detective Special or Cobra), probably with a Tyler.

It is usually MUCH easier to get good results with the first third of your trigger finger, but that is not ALWAYS true.

Practice.

For a DA revolver I recommend the smooth trigger. Bought them as soon as they were available for my 36-1.

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

kbm6893: I feel your pain Bubba. I never have been able to shoot a J-frame well. That's why I prefer a snubby K or a Colt D-frame. But I do own and sometimes carry a J-frame.
Keep working at it if you feel the need. But frankly, I think you're good enough for short range self defense.

You may want to raise the front sight a little but if you are carrying for protection I would say that anyone on the receiving end of that target would still be a hurting puppy.

Remember that in a gunfight there is no X ring, just center mass.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Thanks for all the replies. I do dry fire it often. As a matter of fact, the gun is kept in the safe loaded with snap caps so I can do it often. I have done the coin excercise. I’ll do it more but I don’t think that’s the problem.

One thing I DO know is I do anticipate the recoil. The j frame is not a pleasant gun to shoot. Even with my mild reloads, the gun still barks with authority. I’m shooting 158 grain LSWC over 3.4 grains of HP38. I just switched to a plated 158 grain LSWC from Xtreme Bullets and I upped the charge to 3.6 since plated usually requires more pep. Max charge is listed as 3.8 so I’m still middle of the road. In a 4” K frame, they’re nice and soft. I guess I need to shoot it more often to get used to it. I saw it yesterday three times. I had three light strikes with my reloads. Primer not seated all the way, I guess. These were some of my earlier reloads. When I got a click instead of a bang, the gun dipped. Totally my fault.

Also weird that I have never had a light strike with my 9MM or .380 reloads.

I guess I’ll keep working at it, but it is discouraging.

Sorry for the upside down pics. Don’t know why that happened. They’re right side up on my phone and computer.

I have fired one of these a few times, and I cannot seem to hit the broad side of a barn, but that is with no practice. I realize what they are intended for. I am also not real fond of the recoil. To me there are just so many better choices out there for a CCW and target shooting. I just could not see putting myself through the exercises and dry firing time to learn to be better with it. However, if I were serious about carrying or wanting to be proficient with one of these, I would do several things, such as load a lighter bullet for less recoil, remove the grooves from the trigger, have the action polished out, have the cylinder air spun with a super light polishing paste, till it spins freely, and have the spring replaced with a coil spring with the proper tension. Just my .02

The model 60 I carry is the twin of yours, except I put a CTC grip on it (the short boot grip, not the longer one). The problem I have aiming it is my faulty eyesight. Bifocals ruined my ability to aim a handgun, especially a j frame. The front sight blade falls at the completely wrong distance from my face. Unfortunately the thin front sight blade of the J frame is just a blurry little line I can barely see.
The front sights of my other handguns are thicker and easier for me to see, even if they are still a little blurry, at least I can see them.
I started putting lasers on my defensive guns for this reason, I shoot the j frame a lot better using the laser.
Maybe you are having the same issue

The J-frame S&W can be a very accurate handgun, but the short sight radius and compact stocks make it difficult to shoot accurately. I got pretty good with my 640-1, so much so that I tended to practice more at 25 yards than at shorter distances. I suggest finding stocks that fit the hand well, a smooth faced trigger and plenty of practice, including dry firing.

Me too! My shooting drops off fast with less than a 4" barrel.

My 60-4 is a tack driver, but it has a three inch full lug barrel and adjustable sights.

With the same dismal attempts to preform decent groups as mentioned here have converted my expectations to the reason for having it. That being an inside room sized encounter, or light weight, very concealable protection. I'm as much concerned as how fast can get on target, as where the hits land.

J-Frames are meant to be carried a bunch and fired a little - if necessary. The grips are normally too small for any real decent grip..........PULL, POINT, SHOT, repeat as necessary!!

Well, it is a 3". Maybe the grips have something to do with it but I never had difficulty putting them where I wanted the at bad breath distances. I should say that I bought it new & shortly after had the Springfield Service Center fit the target trigger (serations polished off by me as the J frame smooth triggers were yet to be produuced). The internals were stoned / deburred at that time.

It made my day... I was working plainclothes with a sweater over a button down trying to blend in & the Lt asked me if I was armed!

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NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

I agree with the posters who advocate for 3” J frames. They are easy to conceal and that extra 1” barrel makes a big difference for me.
I also agree with those who have had their actions worked on.
I really like J frames, but any help I can get with making one more shootable is welcome.

a 3" 36-1 with banana grips is the best shooting of the J frames.

The round-butt targets make them much easier to shoot.

kbm6893: you mentioned that you can shoot the S&W K-frame revolvers very well, why not see if you can find a used by Not abused k-frame revolver.

have a gunsmith cut the barrel cut back to 2 inches have the hammer spur of the revolver removed so it won't snag and if it has a serrated trigger have the gunsmith remove the serrations.

It will be heavier than a J-frame but at least you will be able to shoot it.

My only suggestion for overcoming the difficulty of shooting a J-frame (or for that matter any) revolver, is to get a whole lot of ammo and spend a lot of time with concentrated practice... not blasting away randomly but serious, aimed practice, keeping track of your scores and progress and at least periodically having someone watch and coach you to eliminate any bad habits you may be picking up. Don't tell anybody, but this is the ultimate secret to good shooting, and there is no satisfactory substitute. Unfortunately the J-frame, in most adult sized hands, requires a large amount of this secret method, but if I can shoot a Baby Chief, in factory configuration, with my average to large size hands, anybody else should be able to as well.

Froggie

It is the indian. Not the arrow.

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Expect the unexpected

I found that putting a Hogue monogrip (the hard plastic version not the rubber one) on my 36 made a world of difference. It is now too big for a pocket, but the hammer spur and my habit of carrying keys in my right front pocket mean that I never pocket carried anyway. With the new grip it is moderately enjoyable to shoot and I am reasonable accurate with it. With the old boot grips it was unpleasant to shoot and I could not get the accuracy from it that I wanted. It does look kind of funny with the monogrip.

Put me in "me too" column for not getting many in the X ring with J Frame 38 snubbies.

I'm OK with rapid fire DA and will hit center mass with 6 & 6 more right on top of the first, but could not do so for years.

EDC carried a M-36 ever since my first Concealed Carry Permit in New York in 1971, never could do much better no matter what with that serrated trigger and factory stocks. Switched to M 60 years later and carried in Missouri, Ohio, New Jersey but still couldn't do any better (sold it last year to another Forum Member). Living in Virginia since 1988, I came upon a 637-2 that had a $75.00 (at the time...circa 2002 and NO the Hilary Hole doesn't bother me one bit!) factory option of Altamont Combats and lo and behold, same rapid fire same follow up but the groups tightened up AND lowered drastically from top left in the white to about center target right/left but still higher than X, 9 or 8 ring. Most all my practice is with non +P and at 7 to 10 yards, but I'm feeling OK and confident. The only thing I can contribute is that the Altamont Combats have a distinct "palm swell" that the Magnas do not have, and they have a lower protrusion that fits my pinky finger just fine.

Haven't practiced much with any 2 hand hold, as I just don't see the time allowed in a defensive situation, so its Threat, Present, Squeeze, reload, squeeze some more!

Maybe try some different grip choices, but as always...if what you are currently doing will hit the threat don't change to suit something or somebody else's' opinion.

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

I have a model 36 that I use in rotation with a couple other guns as my carry piece and I did a couple of things to help bring my group size down. I got a spring kit from Wilson combat and changed the trigger return spring to a lighter spring. I stoned the trigger and hammer engagement surfaces to smooth them up (I found a great midway USA video on how to do it properly) and I really worked on my reloads to get a very accurate round. Now at seven yards I get a group with the double action pull of about 1 1/2 inches. Using factory plinker ammo I was getting about 3 inch groups before all this. I also changed the grip from the factory panel grips to an altamont rosewood boot grip than not only keeps my numbered factory stocks from getting all worn out and making my 36 look extra pretty but it changed the angle of my trigger finger. For me at least I have nice square line to the trigger which made a huge difference in how steady I can pull it. I also watched some videos by jerry miculek on how to grip and hold revolvers. It’s helps a fair bit.

When in doubt, lower your expectations.

I was never that great at shooting a J frame until I got one in rimfire (351c). I practiced with that one so much that when I went back to my 642 and 60 I noticed a major improvement in accuracy.

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)