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S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 3-Screw PINNED Barrel SWING-OUT Cylinder Hand Ejectors WITH Model Numbers


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Old 06-17-2018, 05:05 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Default 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here as I recently started learning about S&W revolvers and came across this great forum.

I recently picked up my third S&W revolver on gunbroker.com to add to my gun collection and use as a frequent shooter on the local ranges. It is a 17-3 in great shape for a fair price without obvious signs of abuse or neglect. I first took it apart completely, degreased and cleaned it thoroughly inside, put it together, lubed it and it is now a really great gun, probably the most accurate of everything I tried before, grouping 1" from 25 yards using the pistol rest. I later upgraded the rear sight to the competition one and put the custom grips on it.

My only concern is that when I first sighted it in, I noticed that the rear sight needed to be off center and closer to the left to hit the center. I have another 15-4 revolver and the rear sight on it is perfectly centered. My other new 17-9 revolver also had the same issue but new production models are commonly known for misaligned barrels and the quality is not the same even though it is pretty accurate.

My question is whether this is an issue that should be addressed by S&W company or this is perfectly normal and within the quality control/tolerance limits? I read that anywhere within +1- degree is considered normal for barrel alignment.

I attached a few pictures of the revolver for your review and would just like to hear some opinions. I also showed the gun to the local gunsmith at the range and he said it looks normal and the barrel seems straight but I think I can see that the barrel is tiny bit under-torqued or it could be just an optical illusion because the lines are not perfect either.

Please let me know if I should just leave it alone and just keep it as is, I really enjoy shooting it and like the overall quality, it feels very solid and well-built compared to new models. Or should I try to contact the CS at S&W and ship it to them for possible barrel readjustment and aligning to have the rear sight dead-centered. I also do not want to have them mess it up and end up with a badly-repaired revolver. I would rather prefer to keep it as is instead.

Does anyone have the same type of issues with K22s when the rear sight needs to be adjusted to the left or to the right to stay accurate? I know that the sight is adjustable for a reason but I think the level of adjustment in my case is a bit too much.

Please advise and thank you in advance.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:28 PM
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I agree with Collects, I'd not be concerned at all with a rear sight adjustment like you shown. Not out of the ordinary.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:31 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Picture 3 shows the rib on the barrel well centered with respect to the rib on the frame, so the odds of the sight being canted due to barrel clocking are really slim.

Are there a couple of other possible mechanical causes? Yes, the front sight might not be centered on the barrel or the blade of the sight might be bent.

Or, it just may be that the rear sight has to be in that position for the way you shoot that particular revolver. That's one of the reasons they make firearms with adjustable sights. I wouldn't worry about it, enjoy it.
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:33 PM
Old_Cop Old_Cop is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Is that a S&W rear blade on that sight? I have never seen one like that. I would prefer it to be centered but other reasons for the sight to be off include ammunition, grip and trigger finger placement.
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:39 PM
Coaltminer Coaltminer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Looks ok to me, but it looks like a Millett rear sight to me. Shoot away. I doubt Smith would tell you any different, it's an aftermarket sight, better than the original, IMHO. It's like a Colt Eliason target sight on a Python. You've lucked out sir.
y
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Old 06-17-2018, 08:44 PM
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Did you shoot it with the factory original sight,,and if so did that sight require adj to the left also?

Try shooting the revolver with the factory grips,,not the upgrade target grips.
It may just be you, and the way you grip the revolver, pull the trigger, ect that requires the sight setting as so.
The oversize grips that are on it may be inflicting some influence on that.
Try it w/o them and just the factory grips instead. See there it groups w/o any sight change.
If the group suddenly goes somewhere else, I think you have an answer, or at least part of it.

Look at the front sight from the front/muzzle. See if the blade is straight and not canted from being bent.
A dropped revolver can bend them easier than most think. It only takes a couple .000 cant to throw groups off center. Making a rear sight adjustment necessary to bring them back on the mark.

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Old 06-17-2018, 09:44 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Thanks everyone for your feedback and suggestions. I guess I will keep shooting the gun that way anyways and stop worrying too much about it. This is just cosmetic, in the end, a red dot may be another solution and I already installed one on my 17-9 using a picatinny rail. I like to keep the open sights on this one to have one revolver with the red dot and this one with regular sights for a change.

It has nothing to do with the trigger control, grips or the rear blade replacement. It was that way from Day 1 using the original everything. I may get some flyers off hand occasionally when jerking the trigger but when shooting off the pistol rest in single action mode, it punches pretty tight groups.

It may be due to ammo but I tried different brands and it may hit higher or lower depending on the ammo speed but still hits in the same direction. The front sight is perfect and was never damaged.

I think the barrel may be screwed to the frame at a very slight angle to the right and not perfectly straight, which causes it to shoot to the right causing the rear sight to be adjusted to the left. There may be a possibility that this is not an original barrel and the replacement barrel was installed that way, just some guess.

Regarding the sight replacement - this is an aftermarket Jack Weigand rear blade which I got from his site for 25 dollars incl. shipping:
Smith Wesson Rear Sight Blade K L N

The original blade notch was too wide for my liking and the notch on that one is .110" which is easier to aim. One issue with the replacement is the blade height is .160" but for Model K22 and 17 the standard blade height is .146". If there is some elevation room left to lower the rear sight on some revolvers, it will be fine, but in my case I had to lower the rear sight all the way down and still aim at 6 o'clock at the bottom of the circle to hit the center.
Replacing the blade was not hard and I managed to save the original windage screw using a special screwdriver bit with notches to keep the slotted nut in place while carefully removing the screw. Sometimes the screw needs to break when it is punched into the nut too much and cannot turn. A replacement screw is still available online.
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:52 PM
Troystat Troystat is offline
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Does your point of impact change if you shoot two handed from a rest compared to offhand. There are a lot of variables with pistol shooting that are not gun related. I know with my 17-4 the sights are to the right of center for me with offhand shooting. As long as you have enough adjustment room to get the bullets where you want than I would leave it alone.
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:35 PM
k22fan k22fan is offline
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Rather than repeating that the barrel appears to be screwed in straight up and down, I'll try to convince you that it is clocked correctly with your own words.
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Originally Posted by lucidreamer View Post
[...] I think the barrel may be screwed to the frame at a very slight angle to the right and not perfectly straight, which causes it to shoot to the right causing the rear sight to be adjusted to the left. [...]
If the barrel was not screwed in far enough to get the sight vertical that would move point of impact to the left which is the opposite of what you are trying to blame on barrel clocking. Remember, we move the rear sight the direction we want to move point of impact but we move the front sight in the opposite direction. Draw it out on paper if you have to.

It appears you have only used about half of the available windage adjustment. It is very common for target shooters to use more than that sighting in. Hand the gun to a different competitor and he may well move it off that far in the other direction. That's why target shooters need adjustable sights.
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Old 06-18-2018, 11:39 AM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
Rather than repeating that the barrel appears to be screwed in straight up and down, I'll try to convince you that it is clocked correctly with your own words.
If the barrel was not screwed in far enough to get the sight vertical that would move point of impact to the left which is the opposite of what you are trying to blame on barrel clocking. Remember, we move the rear sight the direction we want to move point of impact but we move the front sight in the opposite direction. Draw it out on paper if you have to.
That was not exactly what I tried to say, I meant that the barrel could be torqued all the way down to the frame but the angle at which the hole is made in the frame is not exactly parallel to the frame. That makes the barrel point left or right and the rear sight needs compensation for that. If the barrel is shifted to the right, the POA will be hitting to the right and the sight needs to be moved left to hit the center, for instance.

The revolver was made in late 60s or early 70s, there were no computer-based CNC machines back then and everything was done by eye and experience using power machines measurement tools. Pretty normal to have variations between different batches of production lines.

I tried to put the ruler against the sides of the rear sight ribs on both sides and compare spacing for the barrel, it looks ok to me but maybe the left side has a tiny bigger spacing which explains why it shoots a bit to the right.

In any case, I just wanted to confirm if this is normal and I can just live with this for now. No biggie.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:34 AM
smithman smithman is offline
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They put adjustable sights on the gun for a reason. I’m never surprised when I have to tweak a rear sight for a particular load. That’s to be expected. As long as the rear sight blade doesn’t overhang the base, I consider it normal.

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Old 06-19-2018, 04:00 PM
lscocoa lscocoa is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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I have several S&W’s some scoped or red dotted and most iron sighted. Everyone that is straight iron sight is moved to the right, some a little and some even more so. I think your barrel looks fine , it could be your grip or the stocks . One thing I noticed on new S&W’s like my 48-7 k-frame is that the target grips are narrower than my 17-3 which I feel changes your grip possibly changing point of impact . Another example is my shooting bud has larger paws than I and he usually tells me to sight my guns in because they’re off for him. Just my input and I like red dots too.
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:29 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lscocoa View Post
I have several S&W’s some scoped or red dotted and most iron sighted. Everyone that is straight iron sight is moved to the right, some a little and some even more so. I think your barrel looks fine , it could be your grip or the stocks . One thing I noticed on new S&W’s like my 48-7 k-frame is that the target grips are narrower than my 17-3 which I feel changes your grip possibly changing point of impact . Another example is my shooting bud has larger paws than I and he usually tells me to sight my guns in because they’re off for him. Just my input and I like red dots too.
I do not think it could be my grip or the stocks. I have several other guns with factory set sights and they are perfectly accurate as is. I tried four different grips on this one and the results are the same using the rest or offhand. Something is a bit off mechanically wise but I am happy to know that it is not unusual so I can just live with it.

Does anyone know if a brand new factory boxed Mod 17 has been sighted in by the company? In other words if you get a brand new gun for instance, will it be accurate with the sights already? I read that all new K22s have rear sights in the center from the factory but don't know if this is true or not.

Thanks again. Love this forum. Tons of useful information to learn.
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:36 PM
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Lets get a close up look at the front sight. I cannot determine the type from the photos. Sometimes the front sight could be off ever so slightly.
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:53 PM
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the top view is the tell. It looks so very little bit out of square. Just look at the pic from the top. The right side rib does not quite line up with the ribs on the frame. Picky, yea! Paid all that money, I want it perfect. Let me have it.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:02 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Lets get a close up look at the front sight. I cannot determine the type from the photos. Sometimes the front sight could be off ever so slightly.
Sure. I took a few pictures on the front sight, it actually looks perfect and symmetrical to me but may look a bit off due to lighting. It's hard to take pictures of it with the phone.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:05 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Quote:
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the top view is the tell. It looks so very little bit out of square. Just look at the pic from the top. The right side rib does not quite line up with the ribs on the frame. Picky, yea! Paid all that money, I want it perfect. Let me have it.
I agree, it looks a bit off and under-clocked, however, when I place a flat ruler against the barrel and mark the space with a pen where it meets the frame, it matches on both sides. This seems pretty symmetrical to me.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:17 PM
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Try a .22 caliber bore-sighter laser. That should tell the tale but either way it is so negligibly off, it shouldn't be a worry. If you hadn't stated you used a pistol rest I'd have attributed it to a shooter's visual perspective.

The grouping you presented either means it was a machine rest or you're sharper than Wild Bill but let me ask anway ... You did mean a machine rest like a Ransom Rest, correct ?
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:57 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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The grouping you presented either means it was a machine rest or you're sharper than Wild Bill but let me ask anway ... You did mean a machine rest like a Ransom Rest, correct ?
Not really a machine rest or vice. I don't actually have one yet and should get one maybe some day.

I just used a regular tripod rest which I use for shooting both rifles and pistols on the range and on the backyard. I was taking a few seconds of break between each shot in single action mode at 25 yards which is maximum for pistol range here. The trigger release on this revolver is super light and smooth. Wearing my prescription glasses it grouped all 6 shots into a hole that could be covered by a quarter. It was at 2 o'clock off center because the gun was not sighted-in yet but all the shots landed in one ragged hole. I was impressed myself with its accuracy and should have taken a picture to prove it maybe. Next time I definitely will. Great gun indeed. My 17-9 is accurate too with the red dot installed but not as much as this older one.
When target shooting at 25 yards or more with the handgun, I try to use larger circled targets, they are easier to aim in the center from longer distances.

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Old 06-20-2018, 04:06 PM
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The portable rest I am using. It fits inside the range bag and can be set up and adjusted quickly.
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:44 PM
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The way your revolver's windage would be permanently adjusted is ugly. S&W used to train armorers at large city police departments to adjust Model 10 windage by bending the frame. The factory method is to whack the side of the frame outside the barrel threads with a babbitt bar. Brownell's sells the bars. It is best to get a feel for how hard to smack the frame practicing on Model 10s that someone else owns.

I am most critical of the imperfections in my best match guns. I learned the hard way that having those imperfections fixed is not worth risking the gun no longer performing as well after it is improved. It is wiser to improve a gun that is not your best one.

I'd go back to the store that sold me .22 LR cartridges that group in one small whole and buy them out. If you buy through a different source or later in the future you will likely get cartridges out of a different lot.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
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The portable rest I am using. It fits inside the range bag and can be set up and adjusted quickly.
The only "acid" test for this is in a machine rest, regardless of what seems to be your profound expertise with the tripod barrel rest. That grouping is excellent shooting for sure.

And PLEASE, don't take any advise like "whacking the barrel" or frame or any part of the gun. I'm getting physically ill just imagining that. I won't be able to sleep tonight,

If you truly wanted to measure the front sight for slight offset, a ruler doesn't get the job done. You need some precision measuring instruments. Micrometers have gotten so advanced and so cheap now, there's no excuse not to have one.

Try a laser bore sighter, first. That alone may solve this minor dilemma.

I still have my Brown and Sharpe Micrometer (DOM appx 1950) I bought used, from a retired machinist in 1972 for the bargain price of $50 (that was near a full week's pay for me then) while a new B&S would have been in excess of $100, 1972 dollars.

It is still as excellent as the day I purchased it but I also have a few digital, made in China, micrometers that are just as precise. AND, the Chinese mics are expendable, the Brown and Sharpe, is not.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:59 PM
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It may be just you. I know that in my case almost every handgun I own has the rear sight adjusted just a bit to the left. It all about how I hold the gun.
If the sights will adjust out to hit correctly, don't worry about it.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:51 PM
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My goodness, it does not seem to matter what members tell the OP, because he is apparently convinced the barrel is not "clocked" correctly.

I have been shooting S&W revolvers for almost 50 years, and I have examined them every closely over that time.

Nothing is wrong with your front sight, its placement, the installation of the barrel, or anything else.

If that particular placement of the front sight results in a tight group where you want the holes to be, then you have it sighted in properly.

If you can't stand it, then sell it.

But, there is nothing wrong with it.

Just so you know, because of the way I hold a revolver, I ALWAYS have to adjust my rear sight over as a centered rear sight puts my nice tight group slightly left. That is because I am right handed and crank my hand around the grip to get better leverage on the trigger for DAO shooting.

I care not one bit that my sight is adjusted a little over. That is what it is there for.

Do I shoot fixed sight revolvers? Yes. I use "Kentucky windage!"
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:26 PM
minconrevo minconrevo is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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Back in the 1970's I acquired a new Mod 17 that had the front sight installed way to one side. A trip back to Springfield MA under warranty took care of that.

There is also a possibility that the bore is not concentric to the barrel body.

Still if it will shoot to POA with the adjustable sights cranked a wee bit I think I'd leave it be. Shoot it and enjoy!
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  #26  
Old 06-26-2018, 07:10 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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I know this is not a Colt forum but still wanted to show my new toy that I just picked up yesterday from a local gentleman. This is a nice 1978 Colt Diamondback 4" .22LR in pretty good shape.
It took me to drive about an hour each way to meet with the seller. After some negotiation the price I paid for it was probably right, not cheap but not crazy high like some are asking for this gun online. I would probably be able to get a better deal on the internet for the same revolver, but it is always safer to see and inspect the gun prior to making a purchase.
I took the sideplate off to clean and lubricate the internals. It really looks like it was hardly used before, the parts are still being worked to each other and the action can be smoothed out with more usage. Overall, the internals are something I need to learn about, I did not dare to do the complete disassembly yet because I am new to Colts and they are more complex than Smiths.
I have not had a chance to try it at the range yet. There may be the same rear sight centering issue as I have here with my 17-3. I have seen lots of pictures of Diamondbacks with the rear sight off-center so this may be just normal and not a big deal. Just curious how accurate it shoots and it is more important because this is a 4" inch lugged barrel, the balance is pretty good and overall it feels great in hand and just oozes quality from the past. May not be the Python quality but still on a totally different level compared to almost every modern gun these days.
I checked the cylinder to barrel gap and it is around .002" where my 17-3 is exactly .006" throwing flames to the sides sometimes. I modded my 17-9 recently to reduce the gap to a minimum by raising the extractor star a little bit on the cylinder and it feels so much better now, shoots more quiet and has almost no side bursts, I just love it that way.
As many already know and have both Colt and Smith revolvers - Colts feel like fine and precise pieces of machinery with tight lockups and small tolerances, but Smiths are built more rugged and feel like tanks. I actually feel like keeping it in the safe instead of taking it to the range regularly, it just feels too good to shoot.
May go to the range tomorrow or Thursday and post my impressions later.
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  #27  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:16 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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luciddreamer,

You're correct, the barrel is off.

I'm compelled to agree with gmborkovic in spite of what most posters have said, the barrel is CLEARLY about one degree from being tightened straight up!

And it's true, if it were clocked correctly at 12:00 o'clock, the rear sight would have to be moved even further to the left! So something is definitely wrong and I'm of the opinion that the barrel was turned to the right to compensate for the problem, probably at the factory.

Either the barrel shoots severely to the left or the front sight is off. Turning the barrel off center is correcting the symptom and not addressing the problem!

Personally I would not be accepting of a barrel obviously off center like that. You are right to post about this.

Because I do my own gun smithing, I would turn the barrel until the rib properly matches the frame.

Then if the front sight is straight up and down I'd mill the right side of the front blade to correct the windage with the rear sight adjusted to the center. If the front blade winds up being too narrow, I'd replace it.

If the front sight was canted, after clocking the barrel correctly, I'd remove it and mill the bottom of the base until the sight sits straight.

But if I were you, I'd send it back to S&W and request a shipping label from them because it will cost you a bundle for shipping. If you decide to do this, re-install the factory sight, and adjust the windage to where it gets the point of impact in the center of the target, so they can see how much adjustment to the left is still needed to correct it even though the barrel is already off center!
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Last edited by Hondo44; 06-26-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 07-01-2018, 05:34 PM
lucidreamer lucidreamer is offline
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17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel? 17-3 - rear sight off center, possible canted barrel?  
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I took my Diamondback .22 4" to the range this noon and was happy to find out that it does POA with the rear sight almost in the center, well, it still needed a click or two to move it to the left which is fine.
It does not have the same accuracy as my 17-3, I was able to do 2-3" groups with Federal Value pack from 25 yards using a rest and less than 2" with CCI Standard Velocity, my favorite ammo. What I noticed is that after a few dozen of shots its accuracy seemed to decrease. I do not know why but I got home and cleaned it thoroughly using CLP, gun-cleaner, brass brushes and bore-snake. The barrel was clean anyways but the cylinder chambers are a bit rough and show machine marks with some lead fouling after previous shooter or me. I do not believe the chamber condition may contribute to accuracy loss but will check it again next time. Any feedback on how to increase the accuracy are highly welcome.

I think this kind of accuracy is still acceptable for such a revolver taking into account its shorter barrel. It still shoots better than I can shot it offhand anyways.

Really nice revolver, very pleasant to shoot and perfectly balanced overall.
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