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07-20-2018, 10:42 PM
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Model 17 .22lr brass extraction question
Do the Model 17 chambers ever need to be reamed to facilitate easy brass extraction? I often read that the 617’s chambers often need this gunsmithing remedy, especially after a few cylinders of powder fouling. I hear stories of guys hitting the rod on the table to free up the spent cases.....your experience please.
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07-20-2018, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engieman
Do the Model 17 chambers ever need to be reamed to facilitate easy brass extraction? ...
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Simple answer is YES. Rapping the extractor rod on the table is not recommended and could result in a twisted yoke according to internet lore. All 4 of my K-22s were tight. I reamed the two newest with great results, but am not touching the two older and more valuable pieces. Best way to deal with sticky cases short of reaming is a brass brush and/or a small dowel to tap them out.
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07-20-2018, 11:10 PM
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Wouldn't hurt to try some patches with mothers or something similar either.
Even if it doesn't take much out it can smooth things out inside each chamber.That would be my personal first option before reaming.
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07-20-2018, 11:40 PM
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I have a 17-1 and my son has a 63. Same issues--we just run the brass brush through every 20-30- rounds.
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07-21-2018, 01:29 AM
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Try different kinds of ammo. I had extraction troubles with mine and then found that CCI min-mags slipped right out. I generally shoot standard velocity in my guns but all the standard velocity I tried in the 17 stuck in the cylinder.
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07-21-2018, 09:31 AM
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Check for firing pin dings in the chambers. If a rimfire has been dry fired, it can have displaced metal sticking into the chamber. It's only a tiny amount, so usually the case can go in easily, then get bound up after firing and expanding. It's an easy fix to remove the burr with a chamber reamer, small file, etc. A lot of cylinders have sticky extraction anyway, this is just one item to check for.
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07-21-2018, 09:48 AM
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Agree with above try different ammo suggestion.
I have one 17 that sticks and one that does not. My 18 does not stick.
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07-21-2018, 10:47 AM
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Because of excessively tight chambers and difficult extraction I have reamed K22, K22CM, Mod 17-4, 617-6, Mod 18, and even a K22 Outdoorsman. One Mod 18 was so tight that the first attempt after a thorough cleaning and polishing required a cleaning rod and hammer to tap out the brass. It was such a problem the owner had quit using the gun he was so frustrated. I personally believe that S&W uses a chamber reamer so long it cuts undersized chambers. Perhaps more monitoring of it's use would get more timely replacement and limit this problem. When new replacement cutters would be used there will be a good period of time when the chambers are fine, then gradually get too small.
I have never had any drawbacks after reaming chambers. Accuracy stayed the same and the enjoyment factor improved immensely.
Keep in mind the reaming is with a SAAMI standard "Finishing" reamer, what a normal chamber should be set at.
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Last edited by H Richard; 07-21-2018 at 07:50 PM.
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07-21-2018, 04:48 PM
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I think the key word here is reaming." The chambers at most need a little final dressing... perhaps only polishing. Overenthusiastic reaming will ruin the accuracy of your S&W in short order. I have been fortunate in that the chambers of my 1948 K-22 and my 1920s vintage HFT have chambers that do not become overly possessive with fired cases.
Froggie
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07-21-2018, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krogen
Try different kinds of ammo. I had extraction troubles with mine and then found that CCI min-mags slipped right out. I generally shoot standard velocity in my guns but all the standard velocity I tried in the 17 stuck in the cylinder.
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Winchester is the worst.. Only Federal in my revolvers. Problem solved.
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07-21-2018, 10:33 PM
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My 17-1 and 18-3 both are very tight. I just give a good thump to the ejector rod. I would like a smooth ejection but fear I would mess something up trying to “ream” the cylinders.
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07-22-2018, 04:13 PM
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I will run 5 or 6 different brands of ammo through a rimfire to see which one it prefers. Bought a brand new 617 high cap a few years back and it didn't like any of them. Sent it back to S&W and it was fixed. I rarely ever buy new guns out of a shop. Sold it a week after I got it back. My pre-17's and 18 never gave me a problem. I just prefer the craftsmanship of the older revolvers.
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07-22-2018, 07:47 PM
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Froggie's post got to me. I've been sitting here trying to figure out how one can be "overenthusiastic" when reaming a chamber---besides using the wrong reamer.
I think I've got it----right from the beginning: It is my opinion S&W resisted making a K frame in .22 Long Rifle pretty much as long as possible without just going into the can opener business. They did so because of a very serious bee in their bonnet about the adverse effects of excessive throat length on accuracy---and if the throat length in a K-22 is anything, it's excessive. When they finally gave up they did so reluctantly---with one eye on chamber/throat diameter (accuracy) and the other eye on their pocketbook----but the dominate eye was on accuracy.
Now, all this is my opinion. I haven't measured anything. I don't have any factory drawings---or any engineering notes---and nothing from cost accounting. The only thing I know for sure and certain is it costs twice as much to ream a chamber twice as it does to do it once. And I figure they did it once-----------------------with an eye on optimum throat diameter.
SO-----------------if/when you do it with an eye on easing extraction, just do "the chamber"----that's where the case sits. Any reaming beyond that is "overenthusiastic"!!!
Ralph Tremaine
Last edited by rct269; 07-22-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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07-22-2018, 07:57 PM
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A reamer will not just endlessly hog out material. A chamber reamer only does the chamber. The correct reamer will only cut to a certain diameter, and no more. If the chambers are already the right size, the reamer won't cut anything. There is a step at the top of the reamer to show the correct depth. Chamber reaming is a gentle, very controlled hand tool operation, not a chuck it in the drill at 1000 rpm type procedure.
It seems like a lot of people are needlessly afraid of this simple fix because they don't understand the process.
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07-23-2018, 10:15 AM
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"Reaming?" No S&W should need chamber reaming.
The 17 is a target grade revolver built to close specifications. It needs to be kept clean as oil, reside, whatever can bind things up in a hurry due to close tolerances. Some 22 ammo is very dirty. Try to use some that burns more cleanly. Make sure the chambers are clean. At worst maybe a light polish. But reaming? Ack!
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07-23-2018, 10:57 AM
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I'm against reaming because that tight fit aids the accuracy of the gun. I use a bronze brush to clean the chambers and that's it.
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07-23-2018, 11:30 AM
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A ROSE BY ANY OTHER NAME.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joed49
I'm against reaming because that tight fit aids the accuracy of the gun. I use a bronze brush to clean the chambers and that's it.
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The tight fit in the throat most certainly aids in accuracy. How does a tight fit in the chamber aid accuracy?
So we're not spending any time playing word games, let's try this for definitions. I reckon most of us refer to each of those holes in the cylinder as a chamber. Seeing as how that's not going to work very well here, let's do this: The hole in the cylinder we call a chamber has two parts---or sections. The back part where the cartridge case sits is the chamber----the front part is the throat--or the lead, if you prefer. The reaming under discussion is reaming of the chamber-----as defined------not the throat.
I'll go first---or again. And, again, this is opinion----I wasn't there. The diameter of the holes in the cylinder is/was a compromise. The options presented were accuracy or ease of extraction---pick one (for emphasis). They picked accuracy, and the success of the K-22, both at the range and in the marketplace suggests they picked right. Couldn't they have done it so we'd have both accuracy and ease of extraction? Certainly. They chose not to. I'm sure there were those who wanted to do both. I'm equally sure some folks upstairs where the beans are counted said once is the limit----probably said something snarky like "We're here to make money, not perfect guns."
Ralph Tremaine
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07-23-2018, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269
The tight fit in the throat most certainly aids in accuracy. How does a tight fit in the chamber aid accuracy?
So we're not spending any time playing word games, let's try this for definitions. I reckon most of us refer to each of those holes in the cylinder as a chamber. Seeing as how that's not going to work very well here, let's do this: The hole in the cylinder we call a chamber has two parts---or sections. The back part where the cartridge case sits is the chamber----the front part is the throat--or the lead, if you prefer. The reaming under discussion is reaming of the chamber-----as defined------not the throat.
I'll go first---or again. And, again, this is opinion----I wasn't there. The diameter of the holes in the cylinder is/was a compromise. The options presented were accuracy or ease of extraction---pick one (for emphasis). They picked accuracy, and the success of the K-22, both at the range and in the marketplace suggests they picked right. Couldn't they have done it so we'd have both accuracy and ease of extraction? Certainly. They chose not to. I'm sure there were those who wanted to do both. I'm equally sure some folks upstairs where the beans are counted said once is the limit----probably said something snarky like "We're here to make money, not perfect guns."
Ralph Tremaine
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Ammo varies for this issue. Target speed is a good option. I have used JB polishing compound to clean up my 63. It was the tightest.
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07-23-2018, 11:14 PM
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I have a model 34 that absolutely would not release fired cases. It was clean, and I tried many different brands of ammo.
I finally had the chambers reamed, and it works like a charm, as it should.
No difference in accuracy, just a big difference in functionality.
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07-24-2018, 01:18 AM
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Having been forced to actually think about all this, rather than to adopt an "It is what it is."---and "a "Go with the flow." attitude, has produced a bit of a revelation.
There was a time, many years ago, when one could buy a handgun in Georgia at the ripe old age of 18. I managed to find my way from St. Louis to Georgia not too long after achieving this magic number----and went home with a brand spanking new, but not so shiny K-22. (You could have a shiny one on special order---with a six month wait.) I accomplished my objective by sending the gun back to the factory to be refinished. As has always been my wont, I asked them to go through the gun and make it "as perfect as can be"---adding that I didn't care how long it took nor how much it cost. It came back shiny, but I didn't notice anything else different about it---until later---a lot later.
The first thing I (finally) noticed was it didn't have a turn ring---after many years and thousands of rounds sent down range. Hmmmmmm? The next thing I noticed (pretty much just now) is it has a very fine, but visible "shoulder" line in each chamber---and the finish aft of that shoulder is REALLY shiny. Hmmmmmmm? again----sure doesn't look like any of the other K-22's that have come to live here over the years.
It would appear making it "as perfect as can be" in this case involved not only altering the cylinder stop timing, but also reaming the chambers----maybe even polishing them.
Ralph Tremaine
According to the date stamp on the grip frame, all this happened in "4 60".
Last edited by rct269; 07-24-2018 at 01:43 AM.
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07-24-2018, 09:25 AM
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A revolver should not have to be brushed clean every 20-30 rounds to function correctly. Should just take a stiff tap at most on the ejector rod for a least 1-200 rounds before it need cleaned. Reaming a 22 cylinder is simple and doesn't take long or require any machinery. I rented a reamer and did all of mine (I think 6). I even did my model 18 that will eject after 100s of rounds without cleaning. The amount of metal removed from each chamber was very slight, Some small variation from cylinder to cylinder. I am not a bullseye shooter. Reliability is king with me. I want to enjoy a shooting session, not mess around cleaning a 22 cylinder every 3 cylinders full.
Degraded accuracy? None that I can detect. It is true that the bench rest crowd likes tight chambers and also only neck size so each round fits the chamber perfectly. They also use bolt actions with the ability to cam in a tighter fitting round. They seek to keep the bullet perfectly aligned to the bore, turn necks to be perfectly concentric etc.
But with a revolver, there is no mechanical advantage cambering and extracting, A tight chamber assures bullet being centered to bore in bolt guns, but they only have 1 chamber and no need for tolerance to rotate, lock up tolerance and a gap between chamber and barrel. I don't believe a tight chamber in a revolver is going to get you any increase in accuracy except possibly in extreme methods like using one chamber and a machine rest. There it "might" be detectable. For the rest of shooting, nope.
That excludes the ham handed or some idjit who chucks the reamer up in a drill and has at it.
You MUST use a cylinder reamer on cylinders. A rifle reamer has a smaller pilot that rides on the lands, a cylinder reamer has a groove diameter pilot that keeps reamer aligned.
Last edited by steelslaver; 07-24-2018 at 09:36 AM.
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