It's a .22 ladybug.


"What is 22 ladybug?" you might ask. Essentially it's a CF wildcat cartridge designed to replicate the .22 LR in a reloadable format. For the curious, the name came from my wife when I was explaining that small wildcats were often named after bugs. She thought ladybug was appropriate because they're both "cute" and kill garden pests efficiently.

Right now I'm pushing cast lead 37 grain bullets at about 900 FPS from the 6" barrel.

This is my third gun in the caliber, (the others are rifles) and I'll be happy to explain it in some detail if anyone cares.

The gun started life as a well used Law enforcement trade-in model 15-4. It's been around the block a bit, and I've used it for silly things before. Since this one had no collector value in the first place I didn't feel bad about doing more stuff to it.

The barrel came from a model 48, and the cylinder is a NOS unit from a 617. I would have preferred a blued steel cylinder, but the SS model was less than half the cost of finding a used blued cylinder.

Rather than cut or replace the frame lug on the 15 with a proper RF frame lug, (call me lazy) I cut a small ring from the rear face of the cylinder to match the recoil plate and match the frame lug. The cylinder was reamed .224 through to provide a good throat size for the cast bullets I'm using, and then the cylinder was chambered (.250" diameter .635" deep). I didn't need to mess with the rim cut on the cylinder, s it was already sufficient for the rim on the ladybug.

The ratchet and hand were adjusted to give good carry up and lock, and with the hammer down and trigger back, there is zero measurable play. The flash gap is set at .004".




I haven't yet spent a lot of time wringing out accuracy, but it’s running around 1.5” at 25 yards with the first loads, and a poor rest, so I’m hopeful that I’ll be able to get it down to the magic 1” at 25 yard range that I’m looking for.

So far It works well, I caught this little bugger climbing out of a hole he or his compatriots had chewed in my siding, nailed him when I had the clear shot.



I intend to carry the gun with me when walking the property to deal with the rampant tree rats. It's quiet enough to shoot without ears a little bit (though not something I'd want to do lots of) and seems to be very effective on the vermin.

Well, how clever are you! Congratulations, I do believe you're onto something here. Good luck! Like to see some groups once you get the loads worked out. Now, how about chambering one in .25 acp?

Very neat little cartridge. And reloadable too! What’s not to like?

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USS Brewton FF1086
SWCA#3597

That's cute. Where do you get the brass and which reloading dies do you use?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

This is ingenious.

The hardest thing about that conversion would be getting a decent barrel. I suppose you could line a standard barrel with a liner, but otherwise it would be getting it rebored and re-rifled... A little tough with my equipment...

Thanks! I'm having a ball with it!

I'm making my own brass, It's a little involved, but essentially I swage down .25ACP brass to .247" and then trim the base and rim to fit. I made my own dies for forming and reloading, but I'm hoping there will be some commercial dies available in the future, along with a commercial brass source.

Innovations in calibers, guns, wildcatting cartridges/loads, etc. in firearms never cease to amaze me. I am not a re-loader or experimenter—99% of my shooting is .44 special, 30.06 and 12 gauge—so I am as plain vanilla as they come. But I LOVE reading the old reloading manuals and articles about all the wildcats and exotic cartridges.

I think firearms may just naturally attract thinkers, tinkerers, arm-chair (and formally educated) engineers/ballisticsians.

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Possum—The other white meat!

I like the idea of using .25 brass. There used to be a .22 cf reloadable handgun cartridge that went obsolete about 50 years ago. I'm happy to see a redux. I probably have all the parts to put one together. I know I have spare .22lr and .22wmr cylinders in the drawer plus a few barrels. I've got a few scrap K frames to build on, too. Keep us posted!

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I also think this whole idea is AMAZING and I am definitely intrigued for sure! .25 ACP brass isn't the easiest stuff to come by either, but at least you don't lose any either.

What powder, Bullseye? Charge weight could be under a grain?!

I read about this conversion and the process of making the brass.
I was thinking didn't a company Cooper, maybe spelled wrong
sell a 22magnum with centerfield priming back in 80s. I haven't
herd anything about them for awhile, but I know they sold some.
I saw a rifle but not the ammo. I wonder who made the brass for
them? I think this is a good idea because the 22 handgun might
be the most useful of all. There are a lot of things from target to
small game hunting that doesn't require anything bigger. The ability to handload a 22 has more benifit than just replacing 22rf
during scares. You will be able to develope loads for individual
guns just as CF. You are always hearing that a 38sp will do the
same thing better. Now that may be true with a k32 but a 38 is
a little much for a lot of these uses. More lead and powder to do
the same job. You would think with all the new cartridges that
come out and flop one of the companies would come out with a
similar cf 22. S&W and Ruger could do it very easily using 22mg
models. Just change firing pin to CF and bore cylinders for cartridge. I believe the market is there. Handguns and rifles both.
This is different than a super magnum, short magnum or just a
cartridge that duplicates one already on the market. These have
a limited market, but a 22cf would interest a lot more shooters.

Reminds one of the .221 Askins.

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S&WCA 1729

I do think you're right about tinkering, I think that's one of the reasons I enjoy guns so much.

I'll be happy to share any info you'd like. Just let me know.

The rifles have been fairly accurate in the caliber. Testing today at 50 yards showed all 8 groups between .314 CTC and .729CTC with an averge of .451 CTC.

Ha, yeah, 25 ACP isn't the easiest, but It is at least available. And I bought like 15K once fired cases a few years ago for scrap prices...

Right now my favorite load is 1.1 grains of titegroup under a 37 grain lead bullet.

Yes, the 22 CCM was a quick flop, and it's such a shame, it was a really cool concept. I've got some brass and dies, but no gun for them... Sadly

Fiochi made some of their brass, and there was some lathe turned brass as well, sadly they used the wrong alloy of brass, and the CCM was so hot loaded that it often split the brass on the first firing.

While I didn't start out to make a copy of the .221 Askins, the result ended up being shockingly similar.

There were cf 22 cals in the past. Stevens has several target
cartridges in 22 and 25 for sure. I have never owned one but
have seen the rifles and cartridges. Some of them looked like
pencils. They were from late 1800 to early 1900s, so probably
BP loaded. The moral of this is that the casings can be made
commercially, with today's tech machinery probably easier than
back in the day.

Tony M, IMHO THERE IS ABSOLUTEY NOTHING TO HATE, AND EVERYTHING TO LOVE ABOUT YOUR WILDCAT ROUND, AND THE REVOLVER THAT SHOOTS IT ! ! !

THERE IS VERY LITTLE LEFT TO SAY, GIVEN THE PRAISE THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN HEAPED ON YOU. YOUR VISION, INGENUITY, AND QUALITY OF EXECUTION ARE NOTHING SHORT OF PHENOMENAL......

WHILE I AM IN AWE OF YOUR ACHIEVEMENT, I AM NOT A RELOADER. I AM A SHOOTER. THAT BEING SAID, THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.
YOUR TARGETS REVEAL A GREAT POTENTIAL FOR ACCURACY. FURTHER TWEAKING AND TESTING OF LOADS SHOULD SHRINK THOSE ALREADY SMALL GROUPS......

MEANWHILE, THAT 4 LEGGED, FURRY INTRUDER COULD NOT BE ANYMORE DEAD ! ! !

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

Nice work.

What kind of rifles are you using your new wildcat in?

That is just the berries! I’m happy to see it!

I wanted something reloadable that duplicated .22 WRFM. The .22 Long Snapper was suggested and Hamilton Bowen made one for me on a Model 60-4. I need to drag it out and shoot it some more. I’ve sort of lost track of what I was doing with it.

Thanks again for your interesting post.

Ah, the good old days.
.221 Askins, .22 JGR, .22 Kay-Chuk, .22 Snapper Short and Long, probably others. There was a .25 on a Hornet case, shortened to fit the cylinder, too.

Thanks guys! you've all been very kind!

Right now I've got a Contender chambered for the cartridge (super simple conversion... chamber the barrel and flip the switch on the hammer) and an old Hopkins and Allen falling block.

The long snapper is a pretty neat round for sure! If I can find another cylinder or two, I'd like to chamber one for the long snapper... I'd love to see your revolver, Bowen does such nice work!

Indeed, I had a Kay-Chuck for a while, and never fell in love with it the way I wanted to. I think if I hadn't been trying to push it so hard, I would have liked it better, but it was a bit of a fire breathing monster, and not a ton of fun to shoot for me.

I'm already enjoying the ladybug so much! I think the fact that I'm not trying to hot-rod anything is part of the fun for me.

I can't ad any more than my congrats to all that's been said.

Neat that your wife named it.

Thanks for sharing.

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Totally cool, so I agree with everyone else. Can you please just make us relaxed and tell us you do not live within the confines of a city, town, village, or other similar municipality. I think there is a universal ban on firing firearms within city limits everywhere. Out in the country that's different.

Others already beat me to it, but I do recall that Colonel Askins did something like this in his Bullseye days, to get a very low recoiling CF round . I believe that it caused controversy, like most of the things he did

He resigned from the Border Patrol and went to Chama, NM.
When I read that, That was the first I ever heard of Chama.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

Actually in FL, there are certain requirements to do so legally, but some cities can have backyard ranges within city limits...

But I do live in the country. I have neighbors on 2 sides, but the closest house front or back are over 2 miles away. I've got over 3/4 mile clear line of sight out back, and I'm also very careful about my backstops, but I appreciate the reminder about safety, the last thing any of us wants is a stray bullet causing someone harm.

Here's a wacky idea for you.
Has anyone tried using a shotgun primer in a regular 22LR shell with the bottom drilled out?
I drilled and countersunk some 357 cartridges to accept a standard 209 size primer and they make a wax bullet move out at a pretty impressive clip. They sound about like a 22 short.
So I was wondering if the same thing might work with standard 22 rimfire casings. I know they are really thin walled, but the shotgun primers have a nice solid body with a flange on the outside.
I may have to give it a try with some wax bullets just for grins. If it works, I might try the bullet out of a regular 22lr round and see what happens. I figure worst case I stick a bullet in the bore and have to drive it out...

I think the diameters will be an issue for you, the .22lr runs about .225 ahead of the rim, while 209 primers run around .241. I think if you had a contender barrel in .22 magnum, you could probably breach seat a bullet or ball and then load in the 209 primer and do that.

If you have some old Remington 57 primers, you'd be a lot closer, I think they were around .226-.228 and might fit in a .22Lr chamber that's a little worn. But I haven't seen Remington 57's on the shelf in a long time...

I made up a tube to fire .22 pellets in a .410 shotgun by turning a .22 barrel down to fit, then throating it for the pellet and cutting a 'chamber' for the 209 primer. It was blowing the skirts off of .22 pellets, so I went to #4 buckshot pushed through a .224 sizer. It was fun, but I never got the accuracy I wanted.

Well, your subject line seems to have been thoroughly debunked!

Maybe some readers have elected to not reply, but so far it appears that -NOBODY- hates this idea!

Love it!

And finally, someone found a good use for .25 ACP..!

I've got to be honest, I wasn't expecting such a warm reception. You guys are great.

I do imagine the response might have been different if I'd altered some collectible classic though...

Using the old Velodog case as a starting point and a Colt Woodsman. How much simpler it would have been to use a revolver. Glad to see his spirit lives on.

For more on the subject, see this:

American Rifleman | Askins’ Hot Rod

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I need ammo, not a ride.

No, everybody loves to see that kind of craftsmanship, even if a few good guns get modified, it's worth it. It's not like bubba.

Yep, this is the one I was thinking of. It's in one of my cartridge conversion books or something.
Those rounds have been obsolete for decades. :-(

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Yessir, A neat cartridge and an even neater story. I'm not aware of anyone else copying Mr Askins in his endeavors, but prior to the advent of the internet, information sharing about such things was more difficult, and I'm sure it happened plenty, just no records I could find of it.

I've made some Velo Dog brass for old revolvers using hornet brass, and it's part of why I knew this was a feasible path to follow. I started using hornet brass for this before I realized I could use the .25 ACP case with less work.

I just gave a 10 star thread a 5 star rating—I think it’s first, to my amazement!

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Possum—The other white meat!

Brings back long ago memories. As teenagers my friends and I frequented a dead end dirt road not too far out of town where we would shoot our .22 rifles and .38 revolvers. A man would show up regularly with a very strange group of guns and would explain in detail what they were and what he was doing. I remember him saying “ this pill goes out at “ some amazing velocity. He was an avid and successful wild catter and like many men during that time in my life he would delight in talking about his guns and would encourage us to shoot them. His blonde and bored wife would sit in his Cadillac filing her nails while he shot and talked to us. That remains my sole brush with such adventures, we were then and remain today traditionalists with just one of us reloading on a very casual basis. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and admire your ability and ingenuity as I did that man 50 years ago.
Regards,
turnerriver

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turnerriver

I could see having something like this. It would be very versatile.

I am impressed. Not my cup of tea, but a darned fine bit of work, from thought to implementation.

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NHI, 10-8.

I like it. I looked into the Cooper, but as said brass was a pain. Could be made from Hornet brass by firming then turning the base and rims. If someone would make a bunch of straight walled 22 centerfire brass, I would be all over it. So used a model 10 added adjustable sights and a K22 barrel and a cylinder reamed to 22 Kay Chuck. Later reaming a cylinder to 22 TCM, intending to cut it for clips and make clips. But, never have after firing it and poking out brass. Nothing wrong with it just went to other things and never got back to it. I did get a 55 from 22 mold then milled it down so it cast 40 grain slugs for Kay Chuck and my Jet.

Very cool! I am thoroughly impressed with your ingeninuity and skills.

I was wondering if anyone would mention the Velodog.

Interestingly enough, that round was developed for revolvers; guess the good colonel had to try something different.

The Velo-Dog has always been interesting to me. I've made some brass up for a few of the revolvers, so this really wasn't much of a stretch for me... Getting any accuracy from the 1" barrel and DAO action was always a challenge though...

The 4th squirrel to date was culled this morning with the ladybug K-Frame, about 20-25 yards (didn't measure) and another head shot. That makes 4 dead squirrels with 4 shots fired.

You've done something very interesting here. Any chance we can get a full right up on development and load data? I would love to load something like that.

I'll be happy to write it up, how detailed would you like the info?

Tony M:

You might enjoy reading a 25-page thread, ".22 RF alternatives," started by DigitalDan, in the Ask The Gunwriters forum at 24hour campfire dot com. Other experimenters have posted to the thread. I've followed the thread since its start, and it's been a fascinating experience.


Your own thread has been equally fascinating to me. Do keep up the creative exploration!

I firmly believe that the two groups of experimenters should respectfully read, consider, and carefully discuss each others' work, reasoning, and results.

The results of such open and extended collaboration could lead to developments which would benefit the world's shooting public!

No small dreams!

I bet the round would put the Winchester Model '03 semiauto rifle back in service pretty easily with a firing pin conversion to CF.

Chasing that precious brass around in the weeds might not be so much fun though.


Nice little wildcat round with some interesting possibilitys,,if not just interesting because of what it is.
A roundball and a primer might make for a nice reloadable indoor practice load.


....to the OP,,,are you posting over on CastBoolits as Chev.William and have the threads going about the 22CF conversions using the 25ACP case?
Very interesting reading

Digital Dan and I are in conversation as of recently, and we're working together on bringing our respective projects forward. We actuallly talked last night, and we're planning to have a face-to-face before too long.

Chev.William is another gentleman, I'm also in conversation with him, we've discussed projects in the past as well. The ladybug, for what it is, was my 'invention' if you can call it that (hard to say I invented something that has essentially been around since the 30's, but maybe I re-invented it with a different parent brass?)

I started a thread over there about the .22 ladybug, and Chev started posting on the thread pretty regularly, as well as starting one (or more?) threads of his own about his pursuit of the project. I'm glad he's pursuing the project as well, it sure seems like he's having fun.