Model 17 and 18 8/38

bwxmas · #1 10-19-2018, 09:25 PM

I have a friend that bought an estate sale of Smith and Wessons.
The guy was a S&W collector, so I am sure he did not mess with it. It has barely been shot.
He has a model 17 and 18 in 8 3/8. They are factory, and have the boxes to prove. with serial number and barrel length correct
No where can I find that they made a 8 3/8 barreled 18, but it has one. It is identical to the 17. What could be the difference?
Has anyone seen one, and what would the value be?
They are at a gunshow right now, so don't have the pics to prove, but it is legit.

g8rb8 · #2 10-19-2018, 11:14 PM

Re: Model 17. I have seen the Model 17 with an 8-3/8" barrel and the SCSW (Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson) also confirms the Model 17 was made with an 8-3/8" barrel.

Re: Model 18. I have never seen a model 18 with an 8-3/8" barrel and the SCSW does NOT list the Model 18 produced with an 8-3/8" barrel.

Here are the possibilities:
1. You may have encountered an oddity, a factory original Model 18 with an 8-3/8" barrel. A factory letter from S&W is the only way to know for sure if this is the case. Regarding the end label on the box: it would be interesting to see the end label. There are many non-original end labels probably both innocently placed and placed to deceive.
2. The model 18 may have had the 8-3/8" barrel added after manufacture and it is not original. This seems more likely than #1.

JP@AK · #3 10-19-2018, 11:53 PM

A few months ago, I encountered a marked Model 18 .22 Combat Masterpiece with an 8 3/8" barrel. I was suspicious, so I got the serial number and asked Roy to check on it. Sure enough, it was not original. That gun had shipped with the normal 4" barrel.

I would be very skeptical about this one also.

bwxmas · #4 10-19-2018, 11:55 PM

Lets just say it is legit, what would you think the price should be?
Pistol is 98%.
I Have seen my share of S&W end labels, and would bet a large amount that it is real.
I will acknowledge that it is possible to fake anything.

k22fan · #5 10-20-2018, 12:23 AM

Rather than speculate on what the most well funded collector might pay for a non existent S&W, let's discuss how you can spot a rebarrel. Like the Model 15s that were made while Model 18s were in production, Model 18 top straps are beveled to blend with a light weight barrel and skinny barrel rib. The miss match at that juncture should be obvious.

On the other hand, a popular saying here is never say S&W never made something and I can not say that you will not find the winning lotto ticket laying on the floor in the gun show isles.

murphydog · #6 10-20-2018, 12:26 AM

The letter would have to confirm it, but I would guess it would go well into four figures.

If you have the opportunity to examine it, have a look at the upper frame contours, where the barrel threads in. A model 18 frame will taper down to meet the thinner barrel and the model 17 will be more squared off for the wider barrel and rib. No other S & W .22 LR K frame came with a tapered 8 3/8" barrel so it would be obviously a one-off special if factory.

one eye joe · #7 10-20-2018, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

A few months ago, I encountered a marked Model 18 .22 Combat Masterpiece with an 8 3/8" barrel. I was suspicious, so I got the serial number and asked Roy to check on it. Sure enough, it was not original. That gun had shipped with the normal 4" barrel.

I would be very skeptical about this one also.

I THINK THAT THE 8 3/8" M18, WAS CREATED WITH A BARREL SWAP---ESP SINCE ITS NOT LISTED IN THE CATALOG (NOT CONCLUSIVE 100% OF THE TIME, I REALIZE)---AND MR JINX DEBUNKED THIS ONE....

I WOULD STEER CLEAR OF ANY THAT I ENCOUNTERED.........

k22fan · #8 10-20-2018, 02:28 AM

Another possibility is that it is a Model 17 except a worker grabbed the wrong stamp and miss-stamped it Mod 18. A friend has the opposite, an original model 18 that was miss-stamped model 17. There have been quite a few threads about revolvers that were accidentally stamped the wrong model number.

If that is the case then the box end label was faked. That also would not be a surprise. Sources have been posted for buying newly made end labels that have the boxes for features and serial numbers left blank. Mistakes made filling in those boxes can be the only thing that gives away that they are fakes. If the label is fake the collector who died might not have known.

All of this makes me want to go plinking with a revolver with worn finish and few rust pits. The soda pop cans will not give hoot if my revolver is correct and original or not.

one eye joe · #9 10-20-2018, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k22fan

Another possibility is that it is a Model 17 except a worker grabbed the wrong stamp and miss-stamped it Mod 18. A friend has the opposite, an original model 18 that was miss-stamped model 17. There have been quite a few threads about revolvers that were accidentally stamped the wrong model number.

If that is the case then the box end label was faked. That also would not be a surprise. Sources have been posted for buying newly made end labels that have the boxes for features and serial numbers left blank. Mistakes made filling in those boxes can be the only thing that gives away that there are fakes. If the label is fake the collector who died might not have known.

All of this makes me want to go plinking with a revolver with worn finish and few rust pits. The soda pop cans will not give hoot if my revolver is correct and original or not.

I AGREE ON ALL COUNTS.............

IF I LIKED THIS "M18" I WOULD BUY IT AS A SHOOTER, AND I WOULD NOT PAY A PREMIUM FOR IT........

S&WsRsweet · #10 10-20-2018, 06:08 AM

I'm no expert but if these guys say beware you might want to listen. The experts on this forum have saved me from buying several "collector "grade guns that were not what they appeared .Personaly if a collector had a gun that rare I would wonder why he hadn't lettered it himself I would had .

IWK2HT · #11 10-20-2018, 07:49 AM

It may be that the collector ordered and bought it him self so in that case why have a letter we don’t know the serial number or even the age of the collector so it’s nothing unless the new owner sends for a letter

bwxmas · #12 10-21-2018, 09:42 PM

I didnt buy it, but I borrowed it.

Peak53 · #13 10-21-2018, 10:39 PM

Thanks for the pics. Only the letter will tell.

YeshuaIsa53 · #14 10-25-2018, 07:58 PM

Nice guns.

Housepuss · #15 10-28-2018, 06:32 PM

Here's my 18-3 with a 8 3/8" barrel. I was so hoping it came from the factory that way, but it didn't The letter says it shipped in April of 1974, to a distributor in Tacoma Washington, with a 4" barrel and checkered walnut grips. So it doesn't even look like the target grips are original. I assume the barrel came from a Model 17 but I don't know that for sure.

Who ever did the barrel swap looks like they knew what they were doing. The bluing is so good through out the entire surface It's amazing how well everything blends together.

I'm no expert by any means. I'd be interested to know what others think of this revolver. I've had it out to the range several times and it's deadly accurate.

Housepuss · #16 10-28-2018, 06:36 PM

Additional photos

k22fan · #17 10-28-2018, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwxmas

I didnt buy it, but I borrowed it.

It has been posted on this forum many times that the boxes in end labels were not filled in by the same employee or at the same point in assembly. End labels that were filled in with the same hand writing are counterfeit. Instead of an inspector's initials in the INS box it has the same check mark that was made in the Target Hammer (TH) and Target Trigger (TT) boxes. I suppose the packager's initials could be X but that is also suspect. Sales always did challenge many people's ability to remain ethical. Older S&W revolver prices have risen so ridiculously high that there is too much temptation to create "rare" collector revolvers. I'd buy it as a miss-stamped Model 17 figuring the miss-stamp did not effect its value and disregard the box. Whether it is a rebarreled 18 or a miss-stamped 17 would make no difference to me.

NovaJoe · #18 10-29-2018, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwxmas

I didnt buy it, but I borrowed it.

The top-front of the frame in these pictures is bevelled. My 17-5 does not have this beveling, but my 15-4 does have it. This confirms that the frame is correct for an 18. (But not for a 17.) Yes?

moosedog · #19 10-29-2018, 05:09 PM

I can't see paying a big premium even if it lettered as such. Those who would pay extra won't buy it without a factory letter.

bwxmas · #20 10-29-2018, 08:26 PM

we will see

crsides · #21 10-29-2018, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k22fan

It has been posted on this forum many times that the boxes in end labels were not filled in by the same employee or at the same point in assembly. End labels that were filled in with the same hand writing are counterfeit. Instead of an inspector's initials in the INS box it has the same check mark that was made in the Target Hammer (TH) and Target Trigger (TT) boxes. I suppose the packager's initials could be X but that is also suspect. Sales always did challenge many people's ability to remain ethical. Older S&W revolver prices have risen so ridiculously high that there is too much temptation to create "rare" collector revolvers. I'd buy it as a miss-stamped Model 17 figuring the miss-stamp did not effect its value and disregard the box. Whether it is a rebarreled 18 or a miss-stamped 17 would make no difference to me.

I think K22fan is dead on.