Opinion On A S&W Model 27

wesman5060 · #1 12-05-2018, 12:07 AM

Im in the final stages of purchasing a Model 27 and since i personally dont know enough about them i was hoping yall could give it a quick look to make sure everythings correct.
Its a 1978 Model 27-2 with a 6 inch barrel. The seller says that although it does have some blemishes (such as a turn line) the revolver is unfired. The main 2 shady things i see about the revolver is that the grips are unnumbered and that i dont believe the front sight is original. The front sight also seems to have been either painted red or something but i cant really tell. Also, i dont know if its just me but the bluing seems much more dull than other model 27s ive seen especially along the barrel.
Ive attached links to the pics below. I appreciate any help yall can give me!!
Model 27-2 (Part 1) - Album on Imgur
Model 27 (Part 2) - Album on Imgur

OldChief · #2 12-05-2018, 12:26 AM

I'm not sure if the front sight is original or not but it appears to have been painted with something. I don't believe it has an insert. The main thing I saw that worried me some is that the pivot of the bolt appears to be real deep in recoil plate. As for the grips being numbered, it has been my experience that you don't often find this in many used revolvers. It's hard to tell many things from a picture and the bolt may be just fine. Otherwise, it appears to be a real good revolver.

rbmac52 · #3 12-05-2018, 12:45 AM

The standard front sight on a 6" Model 27 is a Patridge blade. The blade on the pictured Model 27 is a ramped blade. It may have been replaced or modified, one or the other, but a Patridge would have been standard.

The rear sight blade on this Model 27 has also been modified. It has some vertical white lines on it that are not normally seen on S&W adjustable sighted revolvers.

I don't see anything else in the pictures that raises an alarm, except maybe the price tag of $1050. That seems on the high end of the range for this gun, IMO.

wesman5060 · #4 12-05-2018, 12:59 AM

Thanks for the quick replies guys. Would the front sight be easy/cheap to replace? Do you think the rear sight is original with just white paint marks on it and if not is the rear sight easy/cheap to replace? What do you mean by the pivot of the bolt and can it be fixed? I figured with how high theyre going on gunbroker and elsewhere this wouldnt be a bad deal but whats the real money on it yall think? It comes with the presentation box but unfortunately only one of the original docs. Thanks yall!

muddocktor · #5 12-05-2018, 05:10 AM

The rear sight just looks like paint marks to me; I guess he was trying to make a white outline sight out of it. The front might possibly be original, as I have seen a few 27-2 guns with ramp front sights in 6" and 6 1/2" barrels, but it is very few. Like has been said, the standard front sight is a patridge sight. As for changing it to a patridge sight, well I would think a competent gunsmith should be able to do so. The target grips are not numbered to the gun, BTW. I have several 27-2 revolvers from around 1973 to the 80-81 time frame and none of the target stocks are numbered to the gun. I do have a 5" 27-2 that I bought new in 1974 that came with Magna stocks and the Magna stocks were numbered to my gun.

The recessed bolt does look funny, like something is wrong with the bolt, as they are usually just about flush with the recoil shield when the cylinder is open. But then as you look at the picture, notice that the hammer is cocked. The only way you can do that with the cylinder open is to manually push the thumb release back to be able to cock the hammer. In other words, no problem.

The $1050 price actually isn't bad at all on a gun in perfect shape, it's actually on the low side in my experience. And the presentation case adds a couple hundred to the value itself.That gun looks to be a very low round count if it has been shot at all. But it looks like someone did some dry firing with it to put the turn line on it. And depending on how sharp the edge is on the cylinder stop, it wouldn't take too long to make a turn line if it has a sharp edge.

If I were in the market for a blue 6" 27-2 I would buy it before someone else does.

crsides · #6 12-05-2018, 05:26 AM

I think it looks fine. Recoil shield looks like an unfired gun. Grips would not have been numbered at the factory for target grips. Rear sight looks like white paint added that can be removed with a little acetone. Don't get it on the grips. Front sight same thing if painted, which it looks like. The bolt could be stuck out of position with dried oil. A little hoppe's 9 and fresh oil should take care of that. the 6" 27's are one of the least favored lengths, but just north of $1000 with box in this condition is a no brainer.

sodacan · #7 12-05-2018, 10:35 AM

With your doubts about the gun and a slew of model 27-2's out there, you should walk away look for one that satisfies you. No reason to settle. The hunt is half the fun. Good luck.

cmansguns · #8 12-05-2018, 11:01 AM

Below is my 6-1/2" (1951) Pre-Model 27, with the same ribbing on the bbl as well as the frame. Note the Patridge front sight as well.

My Model 27-2, 3-1/2" has the ramp front sight (1/8" blade) and is 1976

I may have missed a pic but do you know the serial number? Is it definitely a Model 27-2? Was there ever a "transition" time for these Model 27's? I've read where S&W stopped numbering grips around 1976-1977 but like posted maybe earlier for Targets.

I'm thinking that with the tools and factory presentation case (with gun correctly pointing to the left) of the proper time frame, and in the condition shown, and a P&R, I would be a player at $900 delivered (Shipping, FFL fees on the Sellers end, Insurance), maybe $950 tops, but I don't know your area so maybe $1,050 isn't too bad.

If you do find it is actually a 27-1 then jump that gun at whatever it takes!

Mike C2 · #9 12-05-2018, 11:02 AM

As mentioned above, the ramp front sight is not as common as the Patridge on the 6 and 6 1/2” guns, but they were factory installed. They were the standard sight on the 3 1/2”, 4”, and 5” guns. They were usually without the red insert on model 27’s unlike the 44’s.

Also mentioned above is that target stocks are not numbered to the gun and that is true for all targets post 1958ish or so.

Not a great price, but not out of line. I prefer the ramp for a carry gun and the red paint helps out for quick acquisition in the field as well.

If you want a 27-2 this looks like a good opportunity.

ron b · #10 12-05-2018, 11:17 AM

I don't see a checkered top of frame or rear sight like all 27's have.. Am looking on phone and pics aren't real clear

Muley Gil · #11 12-05-2018, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ron b

I don't see a checkered top of frame or rear sight like all 27's have.. Am looking on phone and pics aren't real clear

The checkering is there. It is very clear in Part 1, picture # 4.

wesman5060 · #12 12-05-2018, 10:55 PM

Well i decided to take a chance and bought the revolver. I talked him down a little so ill have about 1040 total in the gun. Ill post my own pics once it makes its way here. Also, the serial number is N492*** which i do believe does place it in 1978 and yes the top is checkered. Does anyone know where i might find original correct docs for it? Thanks again!

wesman5060 · #13 12-08-2018, 10:52 PM

Went and picked her up today. Absolutely gorgeous revolver. Actually came with what appears to be all the docs so very happy i aint gotta hunt those down. Arnt the front sights supposed to be pinned in? I dont seem to have a pin on mine. Unfortunately the white lines on the rear sight are not just painted in but were etched in and then painted. Can the little piece with the lines be replaced without replacing the whole rear sight? Thanks again yall!!

wesman5060 · #14 12-08-2018, 10:57 PM

Pics continued

rbmac52 · #15 12-08-2018, 11:00 PM

Nice!

I suspect the original Patridge front sight blade on your Model 27 was simply modified by filing/shaping it to resemble the typical Baughman blade. And I am pretty sure it is pinned in place. You may have to look very carefully to see the pin head, as it will have been carefully dressed to blend in with the side of the Baughman ramp. You may need a loop or magnifying glass in proper light to expose it.

Congratulations on a great package.

Edited to add: Yes, it is possible to replace just the rear sight slide, instead of the whole rear sight assembly. You'll need to order the correct height for your particular gun. There are kits available for this in the range of $20 to $25.

muddocktor · #16 12-09-2018, 01:43 AM

wesman5060, you done good with that purchase. I concur with rbmac52 about the front sight being a patridge sight that was filed down instead of a baughman ramp sight. And like he said, you have to look very closely to see the pin that holds the front sight in and yes, you can replace it with another patridge sight. And changing out the rear sight blade isn't hard to do and replacement blades and the associated parts needed are easy to procure. Measure your blade height and go to Brownell's and order the appropriate blade kit with the size blade you need. The cost varies from $11.99 to $13.19. depending on which blade kit you require.

Here is a link to their page with the rear sight blade kits - <<<LINK>>>

sodacan · #17 12-09-2018, 10:48 AM

Sorry to say, but I think you overpaid for a poorly modified gun. I would advise you to do your homework before buying something that you admittedly knew very little about. It was certainly not a killer deal on a rare gun. Hope you enjoy it. They are fun to shoot. Good luck on your future purchases.

Nightowl · #18 12-09-2018, 11:10 AM

The only thing wrong that I can see is the sights have been modified. I think you have a $1400 to 1500 package with modified sights. You can remove the paint on the sights with acetone. The white is far enough from the sight notch that it will not interfere with your sight picture. I think you will not notice it while shooting. I would remove the paint from both sights and shoot it before I made any changes. To change the front sight, you would have to replace the sight pin with a new pin that would be proud, and new Patridge front sights come without a hole, so you would have to drill the hole to match the existing hole on your sight. That requires a very small drill bit that is easily broken in the process. The front sight appears, hard to tell with the paint on it, well done, so if it is squared up, you should be able to get a good sight picture.

Shoot it before deciding what to do.

toddimusnimski · #19 12-09-2018, 12:22 PM

I think you did just fine on a classic revolver. Please give a range report when you get the chance.
Welcome to the Forum!

Muley Gil · #20 12-09-2018, 04:15 PM

I have altered a Patridge front sight on a 1950 .44 Special Target barrel to a ramp and seen several others. I do believe that is a genuine Baughman ramp and it is pinned to the sight base.

I recommend you get a large clear plastic bag and disassemble and reassemble the rear sight inside of the bag. Ziplock makes a two gallon bag. There is a t-tiny spring and plunger inside of the large headed windage adjustment screw.

mbliss57 · #21 12-09-2018, 04:47 PM

Just to add to the understanding of Target Stocks. Target stocks were not numbered at all. There is a post I will try to find by Expert Commentator and SWCA expert Doc44 that states that with a very few exceptions to some very specific early pre modelled N frames, target stocks were never numbered. This is because they didn't need to be as the fitting of the stocks to the gun in soft fitting department was not necessary. It's an interesting/ useful fact that is not stated in the SCSW. I cannot find it anyway. Enjoyy that 27-2.

Alk8944 · #22 12-09-2018, 08:04 PM

There is no reason to think your gun is any different than the way it left the factory. Front sight type is not definitive as either the Patridge or Baughman could be factory original. The Partrige blade is actually too short to modify to the Baughman profile and look right, that is an original Baughman! Take the paint off of it and you will find the grooving is even and the bluing is intact!

Use come acetone or fingernail polish remover to remove the white marks on the rear sight slide, and the same if you do not care for the paint that has been added to the front sight.

It is extremely rare to see target stocks that are numbered, so this is normal. I would say you paid top dollar for condition, but it was fair.

H Richard · #23 12-09-2018, 08:42 PM

I think the front sight is original, remember in this era you could order any special feature you wanted. Without a letter to confirm, I would think it is correct. My 3 1/2" Pre 27 has the same ramp front sight. The picture clearly shows it is just some paint which is easily removed with acetone without bothering the bluing.

27 Man · #24 12-09-2018, 09:13 PM

Enjoy that 27. They are the Cadillac of the S&W line. When shooting double action, that big heavy cylinder just seems to turn itself once the momentum starts. They are ultra smooth. I have several and all are a dream to shoot.

hkcavalier · #25 12-09-2018, 09:41 PM

Concur on the front sight. Hope there is some bluing under that paint.

Looks just like the front blade on my 5" gun:

wesman5060 · #26 12-09-2018, 10:00 PM

Ive looked all over the front sight and still cant find the pin. If someone could post a pic of the pin on theirs id very much appreciate it. If you look very closely at my most recent pics of the front sight you will see that a small chip came off the red paint at some point. Where the chip is i dont see any bluing as well as any grooves. Id assume the previous owner ground down the grooves when they applied the paint

StrawHat · #27 12-09-2018, 10:45 PM

You did well and have a very good revolver. It amazes me that some will argue on that fore sight. It appears original and factory. An altered Patridge would have a different look to it.

I ave a 27-2 with a 6” barrel and factory red ramp fore sight and white outline rear sight. In that era, S&W was willing to build what the individual customer wanted. I miss those times.

Kevin

rbmac52 · #28 12-09-2018, 11:41 PM

OP

Take a look at the front sight blade shown in the linked photo:

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/pub/products/315520.jpg

Your front sight Baughman ramp blade has a similar "keel" that fits into a like-shaped recess atop the Baughman ramp base.

The location of the pin holding your Baughman ramp blade in place should be midway between the front and back edges of the blade, and then midway between the top and the bottom of the ramp base.

I hope this helps explain where the pin should be located.

s&wchad · #29 12-10-2018, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

I do believe that is a genuine Baughman ramp and it is pinned to the sight base.

Here's a close up of the OP's front sight and the face of the blade is smooth. Baughman's were serrated.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-20181208_212735-jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by wesman5060

Ive looked all over the front sight and still cant find the pin. If someone could post a pic of the pin on theirs id very much appreciate it. If you look very closely at my most recent pics of the front sight you will see that a small chip came off the red paint at some point. Where the chip is i dont see any bluing as well as any grooves. Id assume the previous owner ground down the grooves when they applied the paint

First off, nice gun! The sight modifications aren't a big deal to correct. The rear leaf is relatively simple to swap, but the front blade is best left to a professional. If I was going to have that front sight changed, I'd consider a gold bead or red post Patridge. It's important to get the correct height.

Here's what the blade pin looks like (in the right light, at the right angle). They're hard to see, because the ramp and blade were installed and the pins ground/polished flush, before the finish was applied.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-img_2378-jpg

In this photo of an earlier gun, you can see three pins. Two attach the ramp base to the rib and the third attaches the blade to the base.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-000_1161-jpg

Patridge front blades were standard on 6" and 8-3/8" Model 27's and your blade shape is substantially different from these factory Baughman blades on various 27's. Your blade is obviously a modified Patridge, not a Baughman with the serrations ground off.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-000_2227-jpg

If a customer ordered an otherwise standard gun with a special front sight, the factory would pull a gun from the vault and replace the front sight. It was far less disruptive to production than building a gun from scratch. In these cases, the pins were left proud (the ends radiused), to prevent them from having to refinish the barrel.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-img_2377-jpg

Muley Gil · #30 12-10-2018, 01:14 PM

Chad, your picture number two (not counting the OP's picture), blue barrel with front sight, looks like a Patridge that has been modified to a ramp. As I stated above, I turned my Patridge front sight that was on a 1950 .44 Special Target barrel into a ramp. It looked like the one you posted.

s&wchad · #31 12-10-2018, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Chad, your picture number two (not counting the OP's picture), blue barrel with front sight, looks like a Patridge that has been modified to a ramp. As I stated above, I turned my Patridge front sight that was on a 1950 .44 Special Target barrel into a ramp. It looked like the one you posted.

You may be right Gil, I never lettered the gun. The blade is serrated and I just assumed it was factory. The barrel and front sight came off a 6" mid-1950's 5-screw .357 that I bought with a bulged barrel. I found a suitable replacement barrel and had the factory install it.

Here are some photos of the take-off barrel and its sight.

Opinion On A S&W Model 27-img_2379-jpg

Edit to add: Now that I look at the close-up of the blade on the take off barrel (about 4X actual size), I tend to agree that it's Patridge that was re-shaped and re-serrated.

rbmac52 · #32 12-10-2018, 03:20 PM

Generally speaking, the factory Baughman ramp blade angle is consistently cut to the same angle as is the rear of the Baughman ramp itself. In other words, if looking at the profile of the Baughman blade on Baughman ramp base front sight in its entirety, the angle cut of the blade will be the same as the angle cut of the ramp base. In those instances where the cut angles are different, the blade is quite possibly modified.

Just my observation.

Andrew2105 · #33 12-11-2018, 01:16 PM

I hope that you have tried the sights...unless you are determined to seek as much perfection as possible those might be pretty good shooting sights.

wesman5060 · #34 12-11-2018, 05:13 PM

Im sure this is gonna open a whole can of worms on here but should i shoot it or leave it in its unfired state? Im feeling a bit indecisive about it

petemacmahon · #35 12-14-2018, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wesman5060

Im sure this is gonna open a whole can of worms on here but should i shoot it or leave it in its unfired state? Im feeling a bit indecisive about it

Shoot it! From all the evidence offered up by the folks above, the gun has been altered and so will not pass as a virgin ANIB anyway. So shoot it and tell us how it goes.

I agree with the poster about the rear sight etchings being so far off the actual sight cut that you will probably not notice the them.

I'm not a fan of red front sights and it looks like when you remove that nail polish, the metal will be in the white. I would blacken it and take it to the range and have fun. Then, if it shot well and it were me, I'd load up a batch of Hornady 180 XTPs over a stout load of H110 and take it up into a tree stand for deer!!!!!!!!!!