Oldest son (Sub boy) is looking at various .357 revolvers with target sights. He's mentioned a Model 19 but I was thinking a Model 27 would be easier on the hands with .357 ammo. He's not buying a carry gun and I did convince him to stick with P&R guns.

My only K frame .357 is a 66-4 as a carry piece and I have a 5" Pre 27. I know what I like, but what's the thoughts of the forum?

Maybe a poll?

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

My solution after more than 50 years of use is to have a M-66-3 and a Ruger GP-100, both stainless and with four-inch barrels. Both have Pachmayr rubber grips.

Along the way, I tried about all .357 Colt, S&W, and Ruger .357's, and a Manurhin MR-73.
Models 27 and 28 recoil less, sure, but are bulky and the heavy cylinders work the cylinder hand more and go out of time sooner than do K and L-frame .357's.

I do want to see the revised Colt Python. If I get one, it'll be with six-inch barrel, like the two older ones I've owned.

I carried my M-66 under a jacket in a Bianchi Shadow holster without difficulty. Your son may want concealed carry someday. (My son carries, usually a Colt.45 auto.) Mostly, I wore openly, at work, in uniform. It became my most carried gun, ever. Indoors, I load .38 Plus P ammo.

Never neglect the advantages of stainless in the real world. Bill Jordan told me personally that he felt stainless guns were the greatest advance in firearms in over 100 years. He added that he meant the M-19 to be worn a lot with .357 loads, for emergencies, but to be shot mainly with .38 ammo. S&W factory reps told me when they showed the then-new L-frame guns to limit M-19 Magnum use to maybe 10-15% of shooting.

They further confided (I was a gun writer) that Plus P Plus .38 ammo was wearing K-frame Magnums as bad or worse than full .357 ammo. If you ever have access to that, avoid it. Its sole purpose was to let police tell "community leaders" and the media that they issued .38 ammo, but really have nearly full .357 power.

I asked a detective to access gunfight records where Dallas PD and FBI used Winchester 145 grain .357 Silvertip. It was a huge success. He was a bit squeamish and commented that it worked almost too well.

If you use a .357 in earnest and not as a range toy, you might keep that in mind. But a deeper penetrating round may be preferred for bear and other very large predators. Federal has just announced a good load for that; I got the press release today.

Don't worry about that P&R myth. The M-66-3 and later M-66 guns use a different yoke system that lets them last a good deal longer before developing cylinder endshake from extensive shooting. I don't know the dash numbers for other K-frame .357's, but the change occurred about 1988.

An L-frame such as something along the
design lines of the 686 SSR.

It's a perfect compromise with a number of
barrel lengths available. P&R really have
no practical purposes.

But you're going to get for him what you
want.

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Ubi Est Mea

Nope, he's getting this himself.

figuring P&R will retain value a little better than later pieces.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

I have 3 357s: a 27, 686+ 3", and a Trooper MkIII. I have used my 27 for 200m metallic silhouette and bowling pin matches ... it's a tank. I love the Trooper, but it is more of an investment. I just obtained a 686+ (3") that will become my go to.

I would lean first towards the 27, but would highly recommend a 686+. That way, he'll never have to worry about the forcing cone issue.

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Judge control not gun control!

A 27 or a 686, in a 6.5" or 6".

We (my wife and I) suffer from severe indecision. We have 18 S&W 357 mag revolvers, M586, M686, M19, M27 (1), M28 (1). The only one I definitely eliminated was 8-3/8" M27, had one 20 years ago and joyfully sold it. Barrel lengths include 2-1/2", 4", 5", 6" (or 6-1/2"), and 8-3/8" (L-frame).

Decisions always come with "should of" or buyers remorse for the one that 'got away'. Buy both and be happy!

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S&WHF 366

I LOVE M27s.

I LOVE shooting my 6" M686 no dash and my 6" M66-1.

I've never shot .38s in either gun. I don't think I've ever shot a .38 round with any of my .357s.

I'm not a tack driver. I find shooting 125 gr .357s fun, a lot of fun.

I haven't shot my M27s much but have put 1000s or rounds thru my M28-2.

I had a 4" M19-2 and a 4" 686 no dash and sold both of them because I like shooting 6" guns better.

Shot quite a few .44 mag rounds thru 4" M29-2s. They kick doesn't bother me at all.

I just enjoy shooting 6" guns.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

Since you have the K-frame in a M-66 and a M-27, is your son near enough to try them out? Then he can decide. If not nearby, and no rental option is available, and he really wants to shoot primarily magnums, I would go with the N-frame. I have and love both, but the big gun is definitely more comfortable with the big rounds. (I'm ignoring the L-frame option since that isn't what you asked about)

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

If you are going to be shooting magnum rounds exclusively, get the N-frame. The Models 27 and 28 were built from the ground up to shoot magnum loads all day long. And the extra weight helps in recoil management.

If you aren't going to shoot magnums, get the K-frame. It will handle any .38 round you might choose. A steady diet of magnums in a k-frame will eventually take its toll, on the gun and the shooter.

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FBINA, 204th Session

For shooting heavy magnum loads constantly I’d go with the ruger Redhawk. There’s no screws to come loose. The Redhawk in 357 is a beast. The older ruger security six is another good 357 revolver.

My second choice is a colt python. I hammered my python with all kinds of magnum loads and she wanted more.

My third choice has two 357 magnum revolvers that’s tied for this spot. The s&w m27 & m28 357 magnum n frame revolvers.

The fourth one is a s&w m19, not my choice. It’s well known since the 70’s the m19 hammers itself apart with a steady diet of magnum loads.

I don’t care for lighter frames in magnum revolvers.

I have both and I shoot them regularly. I think that it's six of one and a half a dozen of the other.

Does he really need to shoot magnums in a non-carry revolver? Either model will last a couple of lifetimes with moderate 357 loads (if you reload) or 38 Specials. Let him handle and shoot them for an informed decision.

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Keep your powder dry.

K frame all the way. Handling and pointability blow the N frame out of the water for me. Personal preference though.

With your criteria I would suggest the 27.
One might Want to take a long look at the 686.

I own both the 19 and the 27, along with the 27’s more frugal sibling, the Model 28. A 6” Model 28 was my first gun, the 4” Model 19 was my first service revolver, loaded with .38 FBI load. If the intent is for the range I’d go with the 27 or 28. I’ve spent many pleasant hours firing 148gr .38 wadcutter thru my 5” 27 and 6” 28. I really like the 3.5” 27 also.

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Wheel guns are real guns.

I have both and I've never really been able to "bond" with my 19, but maybe I will eventually.

I like the weight and the heft of the 27 for the .357 caliber.

It's a nice dilemma to have for sure though!

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a P&R gun? I used the search button and it found nothing, not even this thread where it is mentioned several times. A Duck-Duck-Go search was equally fruitless.

It is such a personal choice that he really needs to handle both and decide for himself. I love K frames, and Model 19's are my favorite K frames. I am on a mission to pick up a 19-2 in each barrel length and finish. I am half way there.

He really should shoot both and come to his own decision.
My preference is a K frame.
I have no use for the bulk and weight of an N frame in a 357 or 38. All of my N frames are chambered in rounds that start with .4.
I rarely go to a formal range to shoot. My handguns go for hikes and shoot at targets of opportunity like sticks, pine cones and dirt clods,
I dont want to be packing around a heavy old N frame to toss little bullets down range.
I realize I use my handguns different than most people do so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Or two if required.

Sir,

"P" stands for Pinned barrel; "R" stands for recessed chambers. These two features were standard on many S&W revolvers prior to sometime in the '80s(don't have time now to consult my reference book -I'll let the experts here provide accurate historical data). Both features are found on magnum revolvers of the period, along with .22s; pinned barrels, as I recall, were standard on all revolvers including non-magnum examples. Many of us around here value P&R revolvers more highly than later models, believing them to be of higher quality craftsmanship(which is a matter of ongoing debate). Hope this helps somewhat; others, as previously indicated, can provide more accurate and complete information.


Back to topic.

Regards,
Andy

I vote for a 686.

My first carry gun was a 6” model 28. Way too heavy. I love my 4” Model 19. I would love to find a 4” Model 27 just to have.

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Pine_Worker
Ex-LEO, NRA Life

P & R - Pinned barrel & Recessed chambers (for the cartridge rims). Recessed chambers only for magnum and rimfire cartridges, pinned barrels for all. Both done away with in early 1980's.

George

PS: I should have refreshed before posting. snowman was way ahead of me with a response

Hmm. I also have a 686+. Totally spaced on that one. I added it to suggestions for him.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

1982 saw the end of the P&R, IIRC. I don't have my book handy either, but I was under the impression that magnums & the 22 LR were the only ones with recessed cylinders. Some with a better memory than mine will set us on the right path shortly.

I really think that the young man should have both a K frame and an N frame .357, then later add an L framed 686. It just makes sense.

1982 saw the end of the P&R, IIRC. I don't have my book handy either, but I was under the impression that magnums & the 22 LR were the only ones with recessed cylinders. Some with a better memory than mine will set us on the right path shortly.

I really think that the young man should have both a K frame and an N frame .357, then later add an L framed 686. It just makes sense.

Thanks to Snowman and the others. I am familiar with the pinned barrel, own two, and heard of the recessed cylinder. Just never heard it said P&R before. Don't know what's wrong with this site's search engine, it's not very reliable.

Out of those two I would go with the M27. Second would be a 686 with the barrel length of your choice.

I'd have to go with a 27 with 5" barrel. Seems to be the best balance to me.

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Mike H

IMHO an N frame is unnecessarily heavy for a .357. Go for a K or L frame. The newer performance center 686 SSR appeals to me. A regular 4" 686 tames magnums quite well. If I have an N frame it needs to shoot bigger bullets.

Welcome to the Forum.

I did a search as P & R and had a bunch of responses.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Me and Skeeter Skelton agree...

Attached Images

M27.JPG (53.5 KB, 35 views)

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

As I understand it the rimfire (.22 and .17 calibers) and magnum calibers have recessed case rims due to the nature of the original brass. The rim on rimifire brass is formed by a "fold" of the brass all the way around the circumference. It forms a channel where the primer compound is deposited. This type of construction is what is known as "balloon head" brass.

From what I understand, at one time all rimmed center fire brass was constructed that same way. The only difference was that, for the center fire calibers, that balloon head fold was mashed closed rather than being left as an open channel to be filled with primer compound.

When early magnum cartridges were loaded into these balloon head brass cases, the higher pressures caused an occasional pressure blowout of the brass right at the fold that formed the rim.

The recessed chamber cuts in the cylinder were intended to put a "wall" of cylinder metal around that folded rim to give it more support and prevent those kinds of blowouts. That is why they only recessed the magnums. The lower powered non-magnum cartridges like the 38 and 44 specials didn't have high enough pressures to cause the blowout issues. So their cylinders were never recessed.

Once they did away with the balloon head design and replaced it with modern brass that has a thick web and a solid rim they could have done away with the recessed cylinders right away. Out of tradition they continued them for a long time - decades in fact. But eventually they phased them out in the late 70's / early 80's.

From what I've read the pinned barrel was intended to keep the barrels from being unscrewed by the bullets impacting the rifling. The rifling "biting" into the bullet and overcoming its rotational inertia to start it spinning creates a torque force in the opposite direction. They eventually discovered that if the barrel is properly torqued into the frame the counter torque the bullet puts on it isn't enough to unscrew it even without it being pinned in place.

At least that is the history of P&R from the sources I've read.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

If you are certain 'he' wants a P & R range gun only, to me the model 27 (or 28) is the obvious choice. Don't know if your poll answer option of "Something else" is him or you talking.

If he has any thoughts of a smaller gun for which parts should be readily available for many years to come, a 686 or even a current 19-8 (if the lock doesn't bother him) could be options.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I like the 686+. Smoothest I've ever shot. Mine is the 4" barrel.

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Riding, Shooting, and Truth

Jeesh, teach the boy right!

Get either one now, then the other later. Or both now. What's not obvious about that?

More information is needed. For instance, barrel length. Does he want to shoot a lot or a little? Is hyper velocity (light bullets) important to him or are the 158 grain loads fine?

Since he doesn't plan to carry it, in his shoes, I would lean toward an N-Frame with Target Stocks or Pachmayr Grips. A six inch barrel M27 or M28 are easy to find. This would be my choice for all-around use. He shouldn't get hurt too bad if he decides to sell it some day.

If he likes the 5" barrel, the M27 is the only option. A four inch M27 is a rare and pricey bird so the M28 would be the choice there.

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You're shy a few manners.

I may be the odd ball but why buy a .357 if all you're going to shoot are .38s?

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

Depends on how much money he wants to spend. Cost no object, find a 27. If he’s going to just shoot .38’s at the range, buy a 19 or 66.

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SWCA 3255 SWHF 615

I have 2 M-19s, a 4" M-27 and a 6" M-28. Very much personal preference. Comfortable proper fitting grips are a MUST. I have seen the M-19 described as a 38 that can shoot .357s, the N frame is a more heavy duty revolver.

586, 6 shot 4”

If I was going to Carry a .357 while carrying a long gun
I would choose a 4” -19 or 586 if I was carrying a .357
As a hunting gun or long range target gun it would be
A N frame 27 or 28 with 5”or longer barrel. JMO

Easy... at least one of each.

Get both, take him to the range, let him shoot both & pick one. You keep the other one. Win, win, Win - all around

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On the Oak Savannah

Poll??

H--- no !!!!!!!..... who cares what we think .... what does he prefer?????

You've got a K and N frame .357......... assume he's shot them both???????

Which does he like better???????

That said; the best, all around/utility/ duty/general purpose gun going............. is a 4" 686

Hard choice. Both are .357 classics. While the N frame is a great for the range, the K frame is a bit more comfortable for carry purposes. I'd also consider the L frame, which is the best of both worlds IMO. I love my snubby 66-3 for cc, but enjoy target shooting my 6-in. 686-4 plus. You can't go wrong with any of them, and your son might get the urge to expand into more revolvers after he's had a chance to shoot a variety of them.

If you own both a K frame and a N frame .357 Mag. Let him shoot both and make up his own mind.
SWCA 892

You know young uns, all their love is for semi autos. And the last time he was in on leave all he wanted to shoot were X frames. So I have to do this all remotely. He has some opportunities for rentals near base so we'll see what he comes up with but I'm just giving him suggestions.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

My 1960 6.5" 27. Probably my favorite gun.



My 1980 6" 66-1. The gun with the most sentimental value
and also one of my favorites to shoot.



And my 1983 6" 686 no dash. My most accurate and my other favorite to shoot.

I don't know how I could pick one over the other.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

I enjoy shooting this M&P .45 too.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.