As far as pawn shop records go in Texas the PD gets a copy of not only pawned guns but all pawned property. Most Depts. have Pawn Detail that all they do is check stolen property against pawned property. Most of the shops have a their records on disk and just give the PD a copy.

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Dogs are better than people.

I had purchased a gun on this forum a few years ago. It got stolen (presumably by a USPS employee) and has never been recovered.

I get an email and a phone call every year from the OIG agent that handled the case. He checks to see if the gun has appeared or been recovered and returned. We have a nice chat and catch up until next year.

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On the Oak Savannah

Sorry about this.
I just couldn't like your post.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

I spent 37 years in Law Enforcement in two different states. Both states required pawn shops to supply a copy of all pawn tickets to local Law Enforcement. The Departments had personnel to check all serial numbered items through the NCIC database. Certain items are purged after a designated time period, but much like James Bond's diamonds.....Firearms are Forever and do not get purged. Thirty years ago I bought a beautiful S&W Model 41. I received a call a few days later from a friend at another agency telling me they had received a hit on the serial number. Further checking indicated the entering agency had inverted two numbers. Mistakes do happen when you have people involved.

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FBINA # 161

Just an FYI. If you buy a gun from a dealer who does electronic 4473s, your guns serial # WILL be submitted to the ATF. For the simple reason that the form must be complete to be able to submit it. Paper forms can be run through and the gun info added after the "proceed" is received, and then the only way the ATF gets it is when/if the records are turned in when the dealer closes the business.

I have a 1967 S model M58 .41 Magnum San Fransico Police gun that's about 98% condition I'll be listing in the classifieds here soon if you need another M58.

Sorry, I lost it on a fishing trip.

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Dave Ramsey Cultist

Nothing clean about the politicians here. The feds are all over the Chicago pols. They've been getting some to wear wires, and others to flip. The saga isn't over yet.

So sad for your loss. Glad you did the right thing.
Steve

This was very interesting reading and I would like to thank everyone who added to this post.I have nothing to contribute,just saying thanks.

So you're saying LE is more likely to shoot instead of leaving the cheating who..troubling.

Don't ever get caught with it after that.

20 years.

How long are licensees required to maintain ATF Forms 4473? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

This is Wrong. It's also incorrect. In addition, it's factually inaccurate. I suggest no one makes the mistake of assuming there is any truth to the bolded statement quoted above.

All the E-4473 does is generate a paper 4473. The software has no capability for transmitting information to anyone or any place. It simply doesn't.

If you believe otherwise, please read the set-up instructions for the E-4473 software and show me where/how you set the program up to transmit information: https://www.atf.gov/file/115356/download

In case you're thinking of the E-NICS program, I would remind you that specific about the gun (make, model, serial number, caliber) is not conveyed as part of a background check on a tranferee.

Now, all of this only applies to federal law. Some states do require gun registration, but that's not the 4473.

Nothing ever surprises me with serial numbers. I got a call from dispatch to go pick up a firearm one day. I entered the pawn shop to find a very confused customer and pawn shop owner. Investigation revealed the handgun came in the door ten years prior as a loan, defaulted, and was sold to the current owner who brought it back to also get a loan on it. During this ten years the original owner realized the gun was missing sometime between 2002 and 2012. The person who brought it in was a relative of the victim and had sensed passed away.

I once was waiting on background check when the city police came in looking very serious.They came up to me and said the four inch model 65 I was buying came back as stolen. They walked off with it and the owner of shop was very apologetic.I said no problem. Clerk has already given me my money back.He said no you wanted to buy that gun.He said to clerk to take me in back they had a large batch of firearms they had bought from a large police department.I saw a really nice 681 and pointed at that and said how much clerk said boss said same price any gun.375.00 out the door! I was happy.

I'm curious how that happened. Does your state have it's own background check system. Perhaps, your state requires the FFL to include information about the firearm as part of the background check. The federal NICS system does not include make, model, caliber or serial number. All the FBI gets is long gun, handgun or other.

I once was waiting on background check when the city police came in looking very serious.They came up to me and said the four inch model 65 I was buying came back as stolen. They walked off with it and the owner of shop was very apologetic.I said no problem. Clerk has already given me my money back.He said no you wanted to buy that gun.He said to clerk to take me in back they had a large batch of firearms they had bought from a large police department.I saw a really nice 681 and pointed at that and said how much clerk said boss said same price any gun.375.00 out the door! I was happy.

Sorry for double post.In answer to question in Tn .TBI does all background checks . Two weeks later gun store called me and said mistake had been made wrong number entered in Florida.Would I like model 65 now but I was happy with 681.”

Absalom is right - state laws can be very different. Here in Pennsylvania, long gun sales go on a 4473 and a background check is run but handguns also require a PA State Police form to be completed. That form is mailed, not just retained by the dealer. In a case like this, the State Police would be aware of the gun's past and take action.

Ed

I quit the FFL about 25 years ago I called them (ATF) and had to send my bound book and all my 4473's to Falling Waters Va. sent it registerd so they had to sigh for the package. Made copies of all the 4473 forms so if a customers gun was stolen and they never wrote the serial#'s down I could find it for them. Was glad to be out of it. Jeff

Thats why I bought lots of my Pistols cash and carry years ago.

I closed my pawnshop about 18 months ago. I drove my 4473s to Kansas City (two hour drive) and delivered them to the ATF office. I figured I'd let them take care of shipping them to the OOB records center.

I agree. I was a relief to be done with it. And I was done. I thought about printing out a copy of my electronic bound book for my own records, but decided I didn't want all that personal information.

That may be true for some earlier programs, but not so today. I have watched this particular program work enough times to know better. The program this dealer uses has the buyer input their info into the computer, and then the dealer pulls it up on his screen. The dealer is then required to input the guns info in before the program will go any further. Once that is done, the forms are submitted and a proceed is usually given in 60 seconds or less. Delays take a little longer. After this is done, only then is a paper copy printed with all info on it, including the serial #. The only thing left to do is sign it and drop it in the file.
So if the guns info can't be transmitted, please explain how the feds knew exactly how to find this one after 54 years and several states away. It's certainly not because of any state regulations or registrations because Oklahoma "doesn't play that way."
And the assumption that a computer or software can't transfer information is ludicrous. It can do whatever the programmer wants it to.

As mentioned earlier, a lot of different guns have the same serial number. If you have a gun with the same number as another and your serial number is run a hit will pop up. It is then up to the LE agency to read the additional info, such as Make, model, finish, barrel length.etc. to determine if this is the same stolen gun. Many times it is not. If you have a serial number with few or no letters, the chance of a hit goes up. If you have a serial number with no letters and few numbers, the chances of a hit goes up some more. I once ran a four digit serial number and got nine hits. None of the makes, models,etc. matched the gun I was checking. On more than one occasion I have had guns come back that had been stolen over 20 years ago. I think the oldest stolen gun I found was entered 48 years before I found it. The victim was still alive and still had the same phone number and got his gun back. The most common serial number mistake is somewhere from purchase to theft the wrong number, such as assembly number, is recorded from the gun and that number is reported as stolen. Run a S&W assembly number and you'll probably get multiple hits. Not too long ago I had a shop give me a receipt for a used revolver I was buying and the clerk put the assembly number down as the serial number. I got him to change my bill of sale, after I did a NICS check, to the correct number.

When I first entered law enforcement, I was assigned to the desk & the jail at the sheriff's office. One night, after I had worked there for about a year, I did an NCIC check on my S&W .32-20. To my surprise, it came back stolen! However, once I read the complete entry, I realized the number belonged to a .38 special, not a .32-20.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I do know that a FFL holder cannot access the federal system(computer) to determine if a firearm they wish to purchase is stolen prior yo doing the buy. I've questioned this before???
Steve

Interesting stories... I have been called twice in 50 years of firearms ownership. No big deal on either gun that had passed through my hands...

In NH interestingly enough, if one sells a handgun you have to have a record of who you sold it to...not a rifle or shotgun however.

Bob

I provided a link to the set-up instructions for the ATF's E-4473 software. Do you have something newer than what's posted on the ATF website?

Watched, but not actually personally set up or used. So noted.

Your observation is consistent with my contention that the software the buyer uses doesn't submit anything to the ATF. Regardless of whether the 4473 is filled out on paper or on a computer, the buyer provides information about himself, while the FFL records information about the gun and other details about the transfer (ID information, NICS results, etc.) All the E-4473 software does is fill out the 4473 form. BTW, the purpose of the E-4473 form is to reduce mistakes. The software won't accept a submit request unless every required field is filled in.

It seems you may be confusing two separate parts of the firearms transfer.

The first is the 4473 form. This is a record of a gun transfer that has been required since 1968. It's an ATF requirement. The form is basically a paper trail that allows the ATF to confirm that the transaction was handled correctly, and provide documentation if ever the gun needs to be traced. The 4473 form contains information about the gun transferred (specifically: Manufacturer/importer, Model, Serial Number, Caliber and Type). There is only one copy of the 4473 form and it remains with the FFL at his premises for a minimum of 20 years or until he goes out of business. It is not forwarded to the ATF or any other government agency (of any level) absent a criminal investigation or request from the ATF.

The second part of the gun transfer is the background check. This came about in the 1990s and it handled by the FBI. That's important to understand: The 4473 is a ATF thing. The NICS check is an FBI thing. These are not the same agency and they don't necessarily interface.

In states that use the federal NICS check system, the FFL conveys certain information about the BUYER to the FBI -- ie. name, birthdate, state of birth, height, weight, social security number (optional), citizenship status -- and the TYPE of firearm and transfer. The only options for type are long gun, handgun or other and the transfer can be a sale, pawn redemption or pre-pawn check. The FBI receives no information about the gun. They five characteristics recorded on the 4473 are not included as part of the NICS check.

As you observed, the FBI can return one of three responses -- Proceed, Deny or Delay. The results of this background check submission is recorded on the 4473 as part of the (semi) permanent record of the transfer.

Well, yeah, except that the FFL must record the transfer in his A&D book. In my case, that happened electronically through the software I used to run my business. But, you make a good point. There is no step that involves providing a record of the sale to the ATF or any other government agency. The FFL is responsible for maintaining the records. The ATF checks that they were filled out correctly when they conduct a compliance inspection, but generally they only look at the past year's 4473 forms. They can also get a copy of any 4473 if they're conducting an investigation.

One important point needs to be made: Within the federal 4473/NICS firearms transfer process there is no way for any government agency to know what exact gun is being transferred AT THE TIME OF SALE. The implication of this whole discussion was that some poor schmuck was just trying to buy a gun, but while he's standing there waiting to check out, the authorities swoop in and seize the gun. I can think of no possible way for that to happen within the normal federal NICS system. Weird coincidence is technically possible, but highly unlikely.

As an aside: I once had the local cops call me while a potential gun buyer was in "further review" mode. Apparently, the FBI alerted the cops that this individual was attempting to purchase a gun. Must of been a fairly serious warrant to deserve that sort of attention, but I never heard the details since the customer had already left the store prior to me getting the call. Again, that was about the buyer, not the gun.

How am I supposed to know what happened or how if I wasn't party to the situation? Neither were you, I might add. I've already mentioned that while I was in business I had police contact me three times about stolen guns. In each case, this was because I submitted information about the gun when I acquired it. As a pawnbroker I was required to report every buy or pawn (not just guns) to a for-profit/third-party database every day. The police have access to that data base and the database is set up to automatically check guns against the national hot list. Again, this was something I did because I was a pawnbroker. It was not part of the normal gun transfer process and happens at the front end (when the pawnbroker takes in the gun), not when the gun is transferred to a customer.

A computer will only do what it's told to do. I provided the set up instructions for the E-4473 form and asked you to show me any provisions for internet connection or transferring information. You have not done so. The NICS check doesn't include gun details so it can't be there. So tell me, how is this information being conveyed as a result of the firearms transfer process?

So you may be in possession of stolen weapons. I have been checked out while shooting by LE...

Results could be a problem.

Getting "checked out" (i.e. running gun serial numbers) by law enforcement while you are shooting is an unlawful search unless you are committing a crime while doing so.

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FBINA, 204th Session

My two purchases flagged as stolen by NCIC cleared up as errors too. In both cases these were guns, a Colt and a S&W, from the pre-GCA68 era with straight numerical serials, where the NCIC parameters can cover many different models. Try to figure out how many revolvers would be covered by “S&W, .38 cal, serial #12345”, which is all NCIC seems to need for a match.

The police response was nothing as dramatic as described above, by the way. Both times, I got the distinct impression that all law enforcement involved figured they were running a fool’s errand.

The state police firearms unit doing the check told my friend the FFL to not continue the transaction while they tried to rustle up a local cop to come by and take a look. Someone did, took down some information, and told my friend to put the gun in his safe until they called him and gave him the okay to finish the transfer. It was as if they knew it would amount to nothing.

My friend happened to know the state trooper on whose desk one of the cases landed, and she told him she had a heck of a time getting the original reporting agency (in Florida) interested in digging through 40-year-old microfiche files, only to determine from barrel length and other features in the officer’s report that this couldn’t be the gun.

Norinco????

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Forum consigliere

So sorry for your loss, and that of your safe mates as well. They must have looked to the 58 for wisdom.

I recall a "Hill Street Blues" episode when a Python came into the property room as used in a crime and was scheduled for destruction. The custodian falsified paperwork on it and gave the Colt to his brother in law. Years later a burglar stole the Python and then the gun was found at a second crime scene. A number check came back on the station employee. I don't remember how the story ended.

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"Don't Give Up the Ship"

Been on both sides of a stolen gun. About 40 years ago I bought a Winchester Model 88 from a local shop. Maybe 2 weeks later I get a call from local PD telling me the gun was stolen and that an officer would come to my home to pick it up. He did. I told the shop owner (he must have known because the cops would have contacted him for my info) and he said that was a real shame. He did not offer to refund my money. I guess I could have sued but the gun cost $200 and it didn't seem worth it.

In 1985 I had 23 guns stolen. Two were recovered within a year and I was called by the cops to come and get them. A rifle was recovers 18 years later in 2003. Wish more would turn up. Among the missing guns were a 3.5" 27-2, a 6.5" 29-2, 22 Diamond Back, a Python and a couple pristine sporting rifles.

I suspect but don't know that any stolen gun held by the feds does not get returned.

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No life story has happy end.

A friend of mine had a Browning Auto-5 stolen from his place in Illinois. Seven years later he rented a cabin in Michigan. When he checked into the cabin he found a Browning Auto-5 standing in the closet. It was his.

I did an internship at the Cook County States Attorney's Office. I remember looking at all the firearms slated for destruction. Most memorable were some WWII German firearms with Nazi proof markings on them that had been used in various crimes.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

As has been mentioned earlier, many agencies have a pawn shop detail, I was the officer that worked that detail.

I have a number of stories (some I have shared here).

I am really curious as to why the ATF was involved in the seizure of the revolver. When I located a stolen firearm out of state I never involved anyone other than the reporting agency.

As to an earlier post, firearms stay in NCIC forever. One of the headaches is for the reporting agency to locate old records. I once located a rifle reported stolen back in the 70’s and the agency could not locate the original report. I requested they remove the S/N from NCIC and I did not continue any additional police action.

One of the lessons I learned early on was not to seize a firearm from a pawnshop until I was absolutely correct and certain the firearm I suspected was actually the one reported.

There were a number of cases I put an investigator hold on a firearm and then it turned out it was not the one reported. The person pawning the firearm never knew of the investigation.

One of my other responsibilities was to keep track of firearms recovered by outside agencies. Many times our guns were recovered during federal drug enforcement action. This can be very difficult to track as the personnel changes are frequent and with due respect to my federal brothers, the return of firearms to the state agencies is not a high priority on their agenda.

If anyone has any specific questions regarding Texas practice I will monitor this thread for a while.

I hope you find this helpful.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

That is amazing. What are the odds of your friend getting his A-5 back, yet finding it in another state?

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Who are those guys?

[QUOTE=DR505;140773923]A friend of mine had a Browning Auto-5 stolen from his place in Illinois. Seven years later he rented a cabin in Michigan. When he checked into the cabin he found a Browning Auto-5 standing in the closet. It was his./QUOTE]

Good to hear there are some with happy endings.
Steve

Nearly impossible. At least highly improbable. Hard to believe, actually.

Chicago police receive an allowance to buy
their own gun from an approved list. The
Model 58, or rather the .41, was OK for a
police officer to carry back then.

Reform police Supt. Orlando Wilson approved
the caliber. A criminologist, he also was the
one who created the checkerboard blue/white
which follows the British police uniform.

Chicago's newest police cars also sport the
blue/white checkerboard.

For quick reference, see the TV series Chicago PD.

One thing about the Chicago PD, even in the days
when the revolver was king among police in the
U.S., Chicago cops also used 9mm and .45 ACPs.
Met one uniformed officer who had his .38 on his
hip and a Browning HP in a shoulder holster.

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Ubi Est Mea

Got a call a few years back from a SO concerning a SKS with a serial number coming back to me. Bought at a gun show in Lville. Don’t remember a 4473 so they must have traced it through a receipt. I checked gun safe and rifle in question was still peacefully at rest. Assured the deputy I had questioned rifle in hand.. Norinco Type 56..he also has in hand, a Norinco with what he said was same serial number.. most import serial numbers are electropenned so I think someone along the line transposed or misread a digit.. nothing more ever resulted from the call..

About 15 years ago I gave my Son a Winchester 101 I bought from a guy I met at the skeet range. Years go by and he moves to Lubbock, and the Gun is stolen from his pickup. A couple of months later the Gun is recovered by the Lubbock PD, from a Pawnshop they call him with good news/bad news.

They recovered the Gun he report stolen, however it was reported stolen before, in 1988 ! My son told the Popo "&*#@$ I didn't steal it, I was 6 years old in 1988" my Dad gave it to me. Then he asked me who I bought it from, Hell if I know some guy I met once at the skeet range back around 1999.

So some how the Lubbock PD puts the original owner in touch with my Son, and they hit it off over the phone. The gentleman purchased it in 1966 on they way back from Viet Nam in Japan, it was stolen from his pickup. My Son is a vet also and they form a friendship.

My son tells him how he got the Gun, and the original owner sells it to him for a hundred dollars, as he is too old to hunt with it. Plus the 175 dollars my Son had to pay the Pawn Shop for the loan amount on the gun. Yes you have to buy your stolen property back from Pawn Brokers in Texas.

It all worked out, and no Cops came looking for me.

Btw my advice is to get a safe for your truck.

Well, I took him at his word...never knew him to exaggerate. The shotgun was very much the worse for wear.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Interesting. I lost one several years ago. One of those FBI issued S&W 1076. All legally purchased and transferred. It was the pawn shop from sending state that had to furnish the numbers to local Police that flagged the gun. It was stolen from a retired FBI agent in late 1990s. What was interesting or at least different was that the ATF was never involved just the detective in NC and our Local police detective that made me turn it in. I had to write up a statement of what had transpired and off went it to who knows where.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

He did.......

I'm sure you've all heard the rumor that most guns involved in several felonies have been in a police property room at one time or another?
Steve

FYI - regarding the last part of your paragraph. My FFL dealer has occasional visits from the ATF. The agents have a portable scanning "wand" that they can electronically scan 4473s if they wish. Not sure what the criteria is for them scanning a 4473, but don't ever rule that out.

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ken
SWCA #1959

I read about half the posts before giving up as too many! A few points re a few posts I did read.
1. S&W assembly numbers are a traditional headache for the unwary observer unacquainted with the nuance of S&W serialization replication history! We understand that fact of crane area serialization history! The average owner recording or "officer on the scene" viewing such recovery, likely doesn't. Where the butt number is obscured and a readable number appears in the crane area, it's recorded. Thereafter becoming "the number of record"! Innocent owner "in possession" sufficiently canny to point out the fact of "assembly number only" and as such invalid "descriptor". Ironically, In the instance referenced in yhis Post above, perhaps as likely it was the same gun as stolen and misrecorded then!
2. Federal jurisdiction attaching to stolen firearm crime. My bet, such is by federal law or regulations designating such also a Federal crime. Otherwise, as noted, 'fed violation' attaching re "interstate transportation of stolen property", as crime. If stolen as recorded in state A and found in state B, short of proving levitation, de facto crime! 3. ATF, without more than determining a firearm stolen, yet with responsibility to take it into possession on behalf of the local jurisdiction (& legitimate owner) - typically the one generating the crime report. The same for one local agency 'finder' assisting another agency 'reporting'.
I'm 'assuming' somewhat here. As former Federal agent & later attorney, incorporating some assumptions, since never working firearms crimes. Please don't take any of my words literally here 'as the law'!
A last remark, that "serial numbers" of firearms remain something of a '**** shoot'. Not just misrecording! Prior to 1968 Federal Gun Control Act, merely recording such as the makers name, chambering and serial number, tending to be inclusive regrading many guns requiring "model numbers included" to distinguish. I've wondered how many miscarriages of justice have occurred as a result of 'conclusive assumption' a guns serial number without proper full descriptors, was itself presented as "conclusive & unique identifier"!
Best!
John

Yes it is!

Does anyone recall the approximately 10 Browning M2 .50 caliber machine guns recovered from narco traffickers that had serial numbers matching a batch of M2s supposedly destroyed at Ft Huachuca? The Commanding General insisted his were destroyed and these were “duplicate” serial numbers.

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No good deed goes unpunished.