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S&W Revolvers: 1961 to 1980 3-Screw PINNED Barrel SWING-OUT Cylinder Hand Ejectors WITH Model Numbers


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Old 05-13-2020, 07:39 PM
Dvus Dvus is offline
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Default Lost a fine model 58 to the ATF today.

So today I had to meet an ATF Special Agent to hand over a beautiful S serial numbered model 58 that I purchased a few months back at a local gun store. Apparently it was used in a cop on cop murder in Chicago back in 1966. It disappeared directly afterwards and was traced through a dealer to a man who "lost it in a lake while fishing" until it popped when I did my paperwork, 54 years later. Originally it belonged to a cop who came home and found his wife in bed with another cop. Now the chances of ever getting it back are over next to the frozen hell border. Now that I know the guns history, however tarnished, it just makes me want it back more. The gun store at least stepped up and refunded my money on a gift card.
It just goes to show, it doesn't matter where you buy your guns, you can still get one with a checkered past.

BTW... I DID remove the stocks before I turned it over to the agent.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:46 PM
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Didn't that case have its final disposition some time ago? If so, then why would the ATF (or anyone else for that matter) still be looking for it?
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:48 PM
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I wonder what tipped them off to the fact that you had bought it, when I had a FFL the only way the ATF could get your records was if you quit and sent them to them, of if they were looking at your records to check up on somebody or got a gun and they ran the numbers and it came up that you had sold it, I would like to know the story but we never will. I know after thinking a bit that when they called to get the OK to sell they must have gave the serial number and that was the way they caught it. If you had a CCW they would not of had to be called for an OK. Jeff

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Old 05-13-2020, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm53 View Post
I wonder what tipped them off to the fact that you had bought it, when I had a FFL the only way the ATF could get your records was if you quit and sent them to them, of if they were looking at your records to check up on somebody or got a gun and they ran the numbers and it came up that you had sold it, I would like to know the story but we never will. I know after thinking a bit that when they called to get the OK to sell they must have gave the serial number and that was the way they caught it. If you had a CCW they would not of had to be called for an OK. Jeff
Depends on the state law where he resides and did the purchase. Some places, CCW or not has nothing to do with FFL transfers, and guns are always run through NCIC. I‘ve had a CCW in Oregon for 31 years now, and I‘ve had two transfers (both GB purchases from out of state) get hung up on theft reports.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:04 PM
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There must be a lot more to that story. Curious how it came to the attention of the ATF at this late date.

Some years ago I bought an older S&W revolver at a pawn shop and got a call a week or so later from the local police wanting me to bring it in. Apparently pawn shop inventory, in Texas anyway, is checked by local police and SNs are run against whatever database they have. This one popped as having been used in the shooting of a policeman in NY.

Turned out to be a mistake though as the shop had recorded the assembly number as the SN instead of the actual SN (pachmayer grips covered the butt). It was the assembly number which happened to match the NY gun's SN. Took me awhile to convince the local police that was the situation but ended up leaving with the gun. As far as I know the local police don't check LGS inventory but perhaps in some places they do?

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Old 05-13-2020, 08:06 PM
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I would have gave it to him but not with those grips. It would be wearing some rubbers.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:06 PM
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I wish you would’ve sent me the grips. I would have traded you some ****** Magnas that came with mine.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:15 PM
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How did the ATF contact you? Where did you meet? A strange tale for sure.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:20 PM
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...I have a Colt Police Positive Special from 1919 with a couple of notches in the grips...

...always made me wonder...
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 22hipower View Post
There must be a lot more to that story. Curious how it came to the attention of the ATF at this late date.

Some years ago I bought an older S&W revolver at a pawn shop and got a call a week or so later from the local police wanting me to bring it in. Apparently pawn shop inventory, in Texas anyway, is checked by local police and SNs are run against whatever database they have. This one popped as having been used in the shooting of a policeman in NY . . .

I had a pawnshop for eight years. In that time, I had three guns get flagged by the police. They found them because pawnshops in my state are required to report all their buys and pawns to database. That database gets checked against the hot list.

FWIW, the circumstances of my three hits were:

1.) A Ruger Security Six that I bought from my alarm company technician (straight arrow kind of guy). The gun had been reported stolen in another state back in the 1980s. The detective that contacted me did some more checking and discovered the victim had long since died and he had no information about heirs. He dropped the whole thing and removed the gun from the hot list.
2.) Bought a S&W 686 from a housewife type customer. After I sold the gun to a cop from a nearby town, the local cops contacted me and said the gun once belonged to one of their retired cops, who had reported it stolen. It turned out to be a mistake. The woman who sold me the gun was his widow. Apparently, the gun had been "found" at some point. They let it go and last I heard, the gun was cleared from the stolen list.
3.) Took a Marlin .30-30 in on trade from the ex-wife of a fellow pawnbroker in town. Cops said it was one of about a half dozen guns taken in a recent burglary. Turns out my pawnbroker friend bought a bunch of guns from a guy in a bar. Gave this one to his ex-old lady so she could trade it for a handgun. Cops took the gun and I was S.O.L. My "friend" said he would make it up to me, but never did. Eventually, his wife brought in some gold to sell and she asked 'whatever happened with that gun?" I told her that her ex stiffed me. She gave me the gold to square it all up (her idea). Everybody was cool after that. I think my friend rolled on the guy who sold him the guns and he got arrested. Never heard anything more than that.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:24 PM
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In the words of a famous government official, "After all these years, what difference does it make?" Common sense indicates the ATF wouldn't go the trouble of storing or destroying the firearm. Its very existence in private hands decades later adds nothing to the common good, unless the ATF wants to use every excuse to get every last firearm possible out of private hands, and I don't think that's true.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:27 PM
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I can’t help but wonder what would be the purpose of retrieving a gun that was used in a crime 54 years ago. I’m sure the case has long since been closed. Will charges be brought against the guy who traded it in? If not this seems like a waste of taxpayer money
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:41 PM
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I can’t help but wonder what would be the purpose of retrieving a gun that was used in a crime 54 years ago. I’m sure the case has long since been closed. Will charges be brought against the guy who traded it in? If not this seems like a waste of taxpayer money
This may sound like a stupid question, but what business is it of the ATF's? What federal law is involved here? Isn't stolen property a state crime? Isn't murder a state crime? How is this in the ATF's jurisdiction? Aren't they supposed to be tracking down NFA violations, busting the chops of license holders and making sure people "engaged in business" pony up for a license?
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:45 PM
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Its probably been in NCIC this whole time, and nobody ever ran it. It popped up, they got it, and you got your money back. Who knows if the guy was ever charged, is dead, in prison working an appeal, or what. Doesn’t really matter. Its a murder gun and will work its way back to the murder police.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:48 PM
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It seems like NCIC is forever...

When it pops, they have to do something.

And, we don't know the case is closed....this could be what they need to wrap it up.

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Old 05-13-2020, 08:51 PM
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Statistics. Government agencies live on statistics.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:05 PM
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Kudos to your LGS for refunding the money.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:06 PM
Charlie Foxtrott Charlie Foxtrott is offline
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Default It sounds a little unusual to me.

In VA when they run the background check on you with the VA state police. They do not submit the serial number of the gun. Only the type of gun that it is. Handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Interesting.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:11 PM
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Well if the OP doesn’t live in Illinois it travelled in interstate commerce thus giving ATF jurisdiction in retrieving it. Also if the one who “lost it in the lake fishing” is still alive the 58 is still evidence in a homicide and the individual could be facing charges for tampering with evidence in that case. Don’t believe there are any statutes of limitations regarding such things in homicide cases. Cajun can please step in and correct me if I’m wrong.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
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In VA when they run the background check on you with the VA state police. They do not submit the serial number of the gun. Only the type of gun that it is. Handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Interesting.
Many police departments have details that run serial numbers from guns sold in pawnshops and gunstores. They may have run this one well after the fact and it rang the bell. ATF stops at the store, looks at the 4473, then do a knock and talk. Bye bye gun.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:46 PM
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Is the case still open? Somebody report it stolen?
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:47 PM
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Should have taken off the stocks before surrendering.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:00 PM
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Electronic 4473's...
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:02 PM
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About 4 years ago I had a 45 caliber Glock stolen in a burglary. Two years later a detective from the local police called to advise me it had been recovered at a crack house in Dayton. A joint FBI Dayton task force raid recovered it. The Glock was not used in a crime, it was just in the drug house. The local detective advised it would be awhile before I could recover it.

I waited over 3 years and got no further response. Last summer I went to the local PD, got the report and went to Dayton records. Records told me that they had turned the Glock over to the FBI after their case was finished. A DPD detective called me the next day and said he would check with the Feds. A day later the DPD guy called to say the case had been adjudicated. The Glock was turned over to the US Marshalls and destroyed.

I could not understand why the Marshalls office was involved in the destruction and not ATFE. The local PD took the gun off of LEADS and Dayton did not advise the FBI that it was stolen. The detective said I could file a complaint with their office. Being an ex LEO I would not do that. I was reimbursed by my insurance company less my deductible. But that model 21 was particularly sweet.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:20 PM
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I am amazed that a gun from 60 years ago was even in the computer system. Here in Florida guns sold to gun shops and pawn shops are run through the local PD and they would come get it if it showed as stolen.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:30 PM
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In Chicago bout 5 years or so ago, a gun or two were recovered after a couple street shootings and as it turned out, both were at an earlier time, recovered,inventoried and subsequently ordered for destruction by the court.

As it turned out,they were way more than two and my guess is that 58 may have been one of them
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:32 PM
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This is an enjoyable to read thread, although not enjoyable for the OP.

Nine years ago, I purchased a Marlin .17 HMR as a LE trade-in from a major distributor of LE firearms and equipment. I was called by the distributor approximately 3 months later requesting I return the firearm since the police department needed it back.

The rifle came with mounts for but no scope. I had purchased a scope and zeroed it in. I returned it minus mount and scope. I was able to replace it with a NIB Marlin Model 917V at no cost to me. The new rifle was a higher grade and far more expensive than the price I paid for the well used returned rifle. The mount and scope went on the new rifle. I have no idea why it was needed back, and this thread gives me some ideas.

I came out of it smelling like a very sweet rose.

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Old 05-13-2020, 10:47 PM
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Not buying this story. Sorry.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
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This may sound like a stupid question, but what business is it of the ATF's? What federal law is involved here? Isn't stolen property a state crime? Isn't murder a state crime? How is this in the ATF's jurisdiction? Aren't they supposed to be tracking down NFA violations, busting the chops of license holders and making sure people "engaged in business" pony up for a license?
ATF had jurisdiction because it went through a licensed dealer.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xfarfuldog View Post
I could not understand why the Marshalls office was involved in the destruction and not ATFE. The local PD took the gun off of LEADS and Dayton did not advise the FBI that it was stolen. The detective said I could file a complaint with their office. Being an ex LEO I would not do that. I was reimbursed by my insurance company less my deductible. But that model 21 was particularly sweet.
The Marshal’s Service is the federal agency in overall charge of forfeitures. Your Glock was probably turned over to them when the case was adjudicated and they did what they do. Its just another widget at that point.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Foxtrott View Post
In VA when they run the background check on you with the VA state police. They do not submit the serial number of the gun. Only the type of gun that it is. Handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Interesting.
To repeat what I said above: State law.

By your description, VA state police only run the Brady check, which is federal and checks only the buyer, not the specific gun.

But quite a few states have added their own background check requirements to the minimum, usually an NCIC check of the gun in addition to the NICS check on the person.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:28 PM
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I got a call recently from the local Sheriffs Department questioning me about a handgun I had purchased from a Pawn Shop. I had since sold the gun. The deputy said the gun was stolen 5-6 years ago. The victim at that time could not locate the serial numbers of the guns that were stolen. When cleaning up a few months ago, he found the list he had made of all his serial numbers and contacted the Sheriffs Department which immediately posted them on NCIC and mine was a hit showing it had been bought and sold by a local Pawn Shop. The crook had confessed to the crime and the deputy said they didn't need the gun for evidence, but would like to have it just as icing on the cake. I could not remember the guys name I sold it to and was just told if I ever did remember to contact them, which would mean that they would take the gun, I would have to refund the money received and then go to the Pawn Shop and hope they would refund my money etc. The Pawn Shop would wind up being the one out of their money and that really wouldn't be fair since when they bought the gun, it had not been reported stolen. The only recourse for the Pawn Shop would be to file a judgement against the thief and of course would never see one dollar. The deputy said if I didn't remember, it really was not a problem since they had him and everybody involved was happy.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:32 PM
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The gun was popped because the serial # was reported by the local gun store, as is common practice when the forms are filed electronically. The store purchased a collection of 4 old Smiths from a widow in an Oklahoma City suburb.
The victim of course, and the suspect are both deceased in this case. It is a cold case that has never been closed because the murder weapon was never found to match to the recovered bullet. When the serial # popped, the ATF notified Chicago authorities who then reactivated the cold case and submitted a request to the ATF to recover the gun for ballistic testing. The search started after the crime was commited, the suspect told investigators that he had sold the gun to a local dealer. The dealer then said that he sold it to another individual. That individual told investigators that it fell into a lake while out in a boat fishing. As I know now, that was a real fish story, because the gun doesn't look like it has spent the last 54 years, or even 54 minutes, in the water.

The ATF agent involved was a very nice and professional individual and was very sympathetic to my predicament. He felt bad about having to take a rare Smith away from me. We had a pleasant long talk about this and other things unrelated.

And to those concerned, I REMOVED AND KEPT THE STOCKS. I figure I can sell them and maybe recover a little compensation for "pain and suffering."
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:53 PM
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DVUS, thanks for the interesting posts and the all the details. At least you got a good story out of the whole thing.

It was mentioned earlier, but Chicago was a key term for me. They’ve had some police evidence show back up at the wrong places over the years. A cop on cop murder and missing evidence might get noticed, even if way past it’s prime.

The Feds also seem to really hammer them every few years or so, making some big show about fighting corruption. Frankly Chicagoland seems to have cleaned up its act - The last two Governors have not been indicted (yet). Blago, three Governors back, got Trump to commute his federal corruption sentence a few months ago.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:58 PM
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And now you know the rest of the story, Paul Harvey, GOOD DAY!
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Old 05-14-2020, 12:43 AM
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Three times during my time working in the armory, I handled calls from different divisions vice units. The units called to check serial numbers on model 67s that were in hock at pawn shops. All three times the guns were issued service weapons. "City property. "
I had to laugh one time when the Sgt calling was advised, yes it's a city gun issued to so and so, his reply was " !!@! him this is the third time he has hocked his city gun. One guys defense was , that since he had bought his own beretta, he thought he could sell his old gun.

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Old 05-14-2020, 01:11 AM
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Just another of the many reasons to not covet your neighbor’s wife... and it goes double for LE.
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Old 05-14-2020, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dvus View Post
So today I had to meet an ATF Special Agent to hand over a beautiful S serial numbered model 58 that I purchased a few months back at a local gun store. Apparently it was used in a cop on cop murder in Chicago back in 1966. It disappeared directly afterwards and was traced through a dealer to a man who "lost it in a lake while fishing" until it popped when I did my paperwork, 54 years later. Originally it belonged to a cop who came home and found his wife in bed with another cop. Now the chances of ever getting it back are over next to the frozen hell border. Now that I know the guns history, however tarnished, it just makes me want it back more. The gun store at least stepped up and refunded my money on a gift card.
It just goes to show, it doesn't matter where you buy your guns, you can still get one with a checkered past.
The most amazing part to me is that the gun is an ex cop gun and it changed hands so many times over half a century and is still in such excellent condition. I was born a few years before that gun was and I wish I was in that good of shape.
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:15 AM
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Looks like we all must have concern for guns we bought or traded for years or decades ago. Included before 1968.
I bought a 4” square butt Model 34 Kit Gun in 1983 at a pawn shop for $189. Shot it for about a month until the store called and said it was stolen. They took it but gave me $450 store credit. I bought the 4 3/4” nickel Colt SAA .357 they had for that exact price. Traded it a little later for a 1958 7 1/2” nickel Colt SAA .45. I loved the Kit Gun but chose a Model 18 to replace it. A very wise choice, if I do say so myself. Still have it and the .45.

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Old 05-14-2020, 07:52 AM
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The murder is a cold case, but what about the guy who lied about the gun falling in the lake? Maybe they're chasing him down, with the new evidence.
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:56 AM
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In the year 2000 I had a notice in my mailbox that a registered letter awaits me at the post office. Really I thought? After going up and showing proper identification and signing, I got it.

This is a scan of said letter. I apologize as its a little washed out for so many years as it still resides in my safe to this day.
Couple of salient points, notice the purchase date, 1993, and the letter date January 2000. And they found me the owner from a 1993 transaction.

Now the rest of the story: I was shocked when I read this, ran back to my safe and the gun is still there. *** is going on. So as I calmed down and reread carefully I found the issue! Serial number in letter was listed as 0000X (I only hid the last digit, the zeros are correct). I own 00000X not 0000X!! Whoa...lol. So I call that Sheriff's dept and ask for an email addy so I can respond. The deputy tells me we don't have email here yet! Ok really now? So I draft a letter back telling them there error and that I still had 00000X in my possession and included a photo of the serial number. Sent it back registered mail too. Never heard another thing.

I still have this firearm in my safe I might add. Cost me $85 new in 1993 and have the receipt as well. By the way the last digit is a 7. Pretty cool I think. And looks like "they" can find you too anytime.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:19 AM
Bladeswitcher Bladeswitcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike0251 View Post
I still have this firearm in my safe I might add. Cost me $85 new in 1993 and have the receipt as well . . . looks like "they" can find you too anytime.
If you bought the gun new, it's a pretty simple matter to trace the gun from manufacturer to distributor to FFL to customer. It gets much more complicated when there's a subsequent resale. Once the gun changes hands between unlicensed persons the trail goes cold unless the non-FFLs keep good records and are willing to share them.

The FEDERAL/ATF system does not have registry of who owns what gun. Those records exist only in the form of old 4473 forms turning to dust in file cabinets and boxes at the premises of thousands of FFLs. That said, some states do register guns. Also, records from closed gun shops go into storage at ATF's out-of-business records center.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:23 AM
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That is correct!
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:48 AM
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The 4473 stays at the point of transfer FFL. If it is a new gun they can trace it by contacting manufacture, then distributor then receiving FFL. Also if a gun has always been transferred by a FFL they could trace it from FFL to FFL to FFL to final owner. If at some point it sold or gifted via privat parties then the BATF would have to find last buyer via FFL and ask him what he did with it. There is no federal law requiring a record of a private sale or a law saying you must remember. Lying and saying you lost it in a boating accident would be probably be felony. Knowingly giving false information to a federal agent is a crime. Having a bad memory is not.

Many states, counties or cities have laws requiring pawnshops to turn over a list of all or certain things that they take in. I suppose some places might require that of gun dealers also.

I have heard the stolen gun list is full of problems. Incorrectly recorded serial numbers, things like the K at the beginning of a serial number left off. People recording the assembly number instead of actual serial number, use of the same serial numbers by different manufactures, plus prior to 1968 a manufacture could use the same serial number on different models like S&W once did.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer17 View Post
The most amazing part to me is that the gun is an ex cop gun and it changed hands so many times over half a century and is still in such excellent condition. I was born a few years before that gun was and I wish I was in that good of shape.
As I read the OP, it was the cop's personal firearm, not his department-issued service revolver. I don't think the Chicago PD ever issued M58s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddietruett View Post
I got a call recently from the local Sheriffs Department questioning me about a handgun I had purchased from a Pawn Shop. I had since sold the gun. The deputy said the gun was stolen 5-6 years ago. The victim at that time could not locate the serial numbers of the guns that were stolen. When cleaning up a few months ago, he found the list he had made of all his serial numbers and contacted the Sheriffs Department which immediately posted them on NCIC and mine was a hit showing it had been bought and sold by a local Pawn Shop. The crook had confessed to the crime and the deputy said they didn't need the gun for evidence, but would like to have it just as icing on the cake. I could not remember the guys name I sold it to and was just told if I ever did remember to contact them, which would mean that they would take the gun, I would have to refund the money received and then go to the Pawn Shop and hope they would refund my money etc. The Pawn Shop would wind up being the one out of their money and that really wouldn't be fair since when they bought the gun, it had not been reported stolen. The only recourse for the Pawn Shop would be to file a judgement against the thief and of course would never see one dollar. The deputy said if I didn't remember, it really was not a problem since they had him and everybody involved was happy.
I'll bet the guy it was originally stolen from wasn't any too happy. I guess you could argue it was his own lack of organization that caused this result, but still he's screwed. As you said, not a snowball's chance in hell the thief will pay him a cent.
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:09 AM
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Computers never forget ...once a name and/or number goes in ...
It's there forever .

I had a revolver stolen in Baton Rouge , La.
25 years later it is recovered at a Pawn Shop in Kingman , Arizona .
The computer had it listed as stolen and they returned it to me .
Gary
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:28 AM
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Isn't it still an ATFE rule that after a period of time, 10 years rings a bell, an FFL can purge a 4473? seems to me I remember that fact. Just curious.
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:34 AM
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Bummer that you had to surrender the gun. I suspect it was listed as stolen and will be turned into a manhole cover! As others have said, you should have swapped the stocks with a set of pachmayrs.

I bought a beautiful Flattop Ruger Blackhawk .44 from a friend in March of this year. My friend is in his 80's and purchased the gun used back in the mid-1980's. Michigan has handgun registration, so I dropped off the paperwork at my local PD.

A few days later, I received a call from Kathy in the PD records department (a very nice lady who knows me well). She informed me the Ruger Blackhawk .44, serial number 7363, was reported stolen out of Las Vegas in the late 1990's. My heart skipped a few beats...

I regained my composure and asked if she had any details on the gun. She informed me that the stolen gun had a 7-1/2" barrel. My gun has a 6-1/2" barrel, which was the only barrel length available that early in production on the .44 Blackhawk. Ruger duplicated serial numbers on their various models in the 50's and 60's (they all started at 1), so a 7-1/2" .44 with serial number 7363 had to be a Super Blackhawk, not a Blackhawk. Completely different model...

I explained all this to Kathy and she said she would call me back. Registration information is done online these days, but they were previously tracked on file cards by the Michigan State Police. The MSP didn't add the old records to the database (they go back to about 1935), so Kathy had to phone the MSP and have them dig out the old record. She was able to verify that my friend purchased it 16 years before the make/model/serial number was reported as stolen. His original registration record listed the gun as a Ruger "Single Action" .44 with a 6-1/2" barrel, with no mention of Blackhawk (which is stamped right on the frame)!

Happy ending for me and Kathy contacted the Vegas police and informed they that the stolen gun is actually a Super Blackhawk, not a Blackhawk. Hopefully, they updated the report.

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Old 05-14-2020, 09:52 AM
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So in other words the common expression,
"I lost all my guns when the boat sank in the lake"

Will not hold water?
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:54 AM
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Ive bought stolen guns 3 times in 50yrs, that I know of. Lucky for me they were legally bought and transferred. I never had one when ATF tracked them down. They had been traded or sold. Unless the gun is needed for evidence I think it stinks that they take it from last legal owner.
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