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05-28-2020, 05:20 AM
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UPDATED Model 14 - Which Dash to buy - ISSF Centerfire Competition
G'day Guys and Gals
As per my 2020 Wanted List (prior to Covid-19) I want to get a Model 14 to use in ISSF Centerfire Match. Due to my back issues, I don't want a fancy European .32 autoloader where I have to pick the brass up from the ground.
(For those not familiar, this is a 60 round match shot with the strong arm only. There is 30 precision shots followed by 30 dueling shots. Revolvers can be shot in single action).
So I want to know which model 14 is the best from up until when they were discontinued in 1982? (These are the non-underlug barrel models). No Dash to -4.
I will put an aftermarket orthopedic grip on it at some stage; KN Nill Grips or similar.
Last edited by Moo Moo; 11-07-2020 at 02:00 AM.
Reason: Updated
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05-28-2020, 05:44 AM
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I would guess any mechanically sound model 14 would be fine. If a previous owner was a target shooter and knew what load it liked that would be best, but any example should shoot 148 gr wadcutters at 25 m with boring accuracy. If you do your part.
If you have no history on one and are not able to test fire it, about all you can do is check if the trigger and timing are to your liking (or having it modified), along with dimensions and tolerances. Good luck in your search.
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05-28-2020, 06:25 AM
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I think You'll be good with any of them. I can't remember the dash what of mine, can only tell you after I get home after work. I think it was made in 1978. It is very good with the right ammo, best accuracy obtained was with my handloads using unresized solid wadcutters.
Anyways. Bear in mind that there is a brass catcher that can be mounted on the hammerli 280.
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05-28-2020, 03:48 PM
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OK. I checked it. It's a 14-4.
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05-29-2020, 01:08 AM
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As Alan said, if the timing, lockup, and cylinder end-shake (front to back movement) are all good, most of them will shoot better than any of us are able to hold. Good luck with finding a sweet shooter.
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05-29-2020, 09:26 AM
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If .32 is allowed, would you consider a Mod 16? The 16-4 is more available, but does have the full barrel underlug. However they are fantastically accurate..
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05-29-2020, 02:09 PM
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I will tell you that my 14-3 with 8 3/8 inch long barrel is one of my favorite model 14's and one of the most accurate too! I dont know if you have rules on barrel length but it will give you a longer sight radius, with that a slight advantage. If you are only allowed 6 inch than a model 14 no dash with 4 screws is really tough to beat all the way around.
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05-29-2020, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddio202
I will tell you that my 14-3 with 8 3/8 inch long barrel is one of my favorite model 14's and one of the most accurate too! I dont know if you have rules on barrel length but it will give you a longer sight radius, with that a slight advantage. If you are only allowed 6 inch than a model 14 no dash with 4 screws is really tough to beat all the way around.
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Yes, there are rules on barrel lenght. Max is 6 1/2 inches.
Might as well throw a picture of mine.
Those target stocks are not original to it. It came with magnas.
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05-29-2020, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard
If .32 is allowed, would you consider a Mod 16? The 16-4 is more available, but does have the full barrel underlug. However they are fantastically accurate..
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Yes, .32 is allowed. In fact most pistols used are dedicated .32 wadcutter only autos.
Like this one.
Edit. I don't consider a full barrel underlug an advantage in this competition. There is no rapid sequence of shots in it. In the first stage you have 5 minutes to fire each 5 shot string.
In the second stage you have 3 seconds exposition of the target for each shot with a lapse of seven seconds where the target is not presented. During those 7 seconds you have to lower your arm down at an angle not inferior to 45 degrees. So an overweight pistol is somewhat of a disadvantage.
This is a "cuthroat" discipline. You won't usually get in the top 5 with a score under 580 points on the 600 possible.
Edit2 Found a video of the second stage, it's better than words.
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Last edited by Kurusu; 05-29-2020 at 02:50 PM.
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05-29-2020, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu
Yes, .32 is allowed. In fact most pistols used are dedicated .32 wadcutter only autos.
Like this one.
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Very nice! I am lusting after one of those!
Remember the original poster does not want to chase his brass from a semi auto though.
Ed
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05-29-2020, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedlate
Very nice! I am lusting after one of those!
Remember the original poster does not want to chase his brass from a semi auto though.
Ed
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I remember. That is why I said there is a brass catcher that can be adapted to the 280 ejection port. You won't have to chase brass with it on.
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05-29-2020, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu
I remember. That is why I said there is a brass catcher that can be adapted to the 280 ejection port. You won't have to chase brass with it on.
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Oh!! I missed that!
Ed
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05-29-2020, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu
I remember. That is why I said [QUOTE
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there is a brass catcher that can be adapted to the 280 ejection port. You won't have to chase brass with it on.[/QUOTE]
Brass catchers are prohibited in NSW. There are some exceptions but still, they really cannot be found and the Australian importers would rather not bring them into the country.
Also I wanted to stick with .38 Special as I didn't really want to reload in another caliber.
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05-29-2020, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo Moo
there is a brass catcher that can be adapted to the 280 ejection port. You won't have to chase brass with it on.
Brass catchers are prohibited in NSW. There are some exceptions but still, they really cannot be found and the Australian importers would rather not bring them into the country.
Also I wanted to stick with .38 Special as I didn't really want to reload in another caliber.
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To be honest. I don't reload for .32 WC. I dislke the fact that the most accurate reload, with the best, and very fast, powder I have available (Vectan Ba10) is a borderline max load (1.3 gr) an hair away from overpressure. So I use factory Lapuas that are also very, very accurate. And so I don't bother to chase my .32 brass. Which I do for .45 ACP; 9mm and obcessively dangerous for 7,65 Parabellum; 7,63 Mauser and 7,62 Tokarev.
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05-29-2020, 06:38 PM
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I have a 14-1 4-screw that was made in 1962.
Works very well, as I'm sure they all do.
I guess if you want something interesting and rare, get a 4-screw no dash or -1.
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05-29-2020, 10:11 PM
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For ISSF, UIT, NRA (any of the precision disciplines) any of the K-38 (model 14) variants will work fine.
I'd avoid any that has been worked over, or used heavily, as a DA "practical" or combat-type revolver. Issues due to trigger jobs can end up with extra cash outlay finding replacement parts (triggers, hammers, springs,...). And, that's not to mention peened cylinder bolt cuts from large quantities of rapid fire DA shooting.
Check the bore for any signs of bulging. It is not unheard of for someone who's shot a lot of wadcutter reloads to have ringed a barrel firing a loaded round after a squib.
If you're looking for a nice variant, though, you could look for one of the rare SA only versions.
Jim
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05-30-2020, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6string
For ISSF, UIT, NRA (any of the precision disciplines) any of the K-38 (model 14) variants will work fine.
I'd avoid any that has been worked over, or used heavily, as a DA "practical" or combat-type revolver. Issues due to trigger jobs can end up with extra cash outlay finding replacement parts (triggers, hammers, springs,...). And, that's not to mention peened cylinder bolt cuts from large quantities of rapid fire DA shooting.
Check the bore for any signs of bulging. It is not unheard of for someone who's shot a lot of wadcutter reloads to have ringed a barrel firing a loaded round after a squib.
If you're looking for a nice variant, though, you could look for one of the rare SA only versions.
Jim
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Thanks for your input. In regards to the reared Factory SA models, how do you tell them apart from the gunsmith trigger job conversions to SA? What trigger weight would these be set at?
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05-30-2020, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo Moo
Thanks for your input. In regards to the reared Factory SA models, how do you tell them apart from the gunsmith trigger job conversions to SA? What trigger weight would these be set at?
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The standard hammer has a cutout for the DA sear. Some folks will remove this part to make the revolver function only in SA.
But, this modification does nothing to improve anything.
If you cock the hammer and look down into the action, you'll see the presence of this part or a cutout in the hammer from where the part was removed.
A true factory SA only K38 has a hammer that lacks the DA sear and the cutout to install the part. It is solid.
It's not difficult to spot, but some familiarity with S&W revolvers helps.
By the way, S&W used to sell a kit with a matched trigger and SA hammer for making the conversion legitimately.
I may be wrong on the following, as I never got the chance to make a real comparison, but my understanding is that the true SA only K38s come to full cock with slightly less arc of motion.
You supposedly get faster locktime and easier cocking effort.
Trigger pull is unaffected, and factory specifications are within ISSF rules.
And, not to complicate things too much, but from the 1930s to the 1950s, there were a special class of modified SA only revolvers (usually K38s or Colt OMTs) built for American Bullseye which featured heavily rebuilt actions, short throw hammers, "cockeyed" hammer spurs, etc. Here on the S&W Forum you can read more about these by searching for King's conversions, for starters.
They are rare and desirable for collectors and shooters. Not something you'll likely run into by accident, but they do fit the discussion.
Jim
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05-30-2020, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6string
Trigger pull is unaffected, and factory specifications are within ISSF rules.
Jim
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Bear in mind there was a change in ISSF rules a couple of years ago.
Minimum trigger pull weight was 3 pounds and now it's down to 2.2 pounds.
Edit. Trigger weight changes only require change of the rebound trigger spring. The action is already well polished. And. Resist the temptation to try to change trigger weight pull by unscrewing the main spring tension screw. It should always be screwed all the way in.
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Last edited by Kurusu; 05-30-2020 at 09:05 AM.
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05-30-2020, 11:00 AM
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Moo Moo, I can relate to not wanting to bend over to pick up brass. After my accident that left me disabled, it is hard for me to stoop down to retrieve my spent rifle and pistol brass. To make pursuit of my shooting possible, my children bought me a brass broom, which I believe to be about 95% effective.
Ammo Brass Wizard for Brass Collection
With respect to the Model 14s, I vaguely remember the gun magazines in the early 1970s making a big "to do" about S&W adjusting the rib width on the Models 14, 16, & 17, so each 6" revolver weighed exactly the same at 38.5 ounces. Don't know if this will have a bearing on your quest.
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05-30-2020, 01:11 PM
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I am reminded that the K38 has done well in International competition over the decades. Back in 1947, shooting legend Torsten Ullman of Sweden won the World Cup with his.
Smith & Wesson celebrated his win by featuring him in a full size ad. About the same time, Torsten visited the S&W factory and met president Karl Hellstrom.
Someone on the forum has posted a copy of the ad, and there is also a photo of the above mentioned visit.
Attached is a picture of Torsten with his K38.
(You may notice that he shoots cross-eye dominant!)
Jim
Last edited by 6string; 05-30-2020 at 01:13 PM.
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05-30-2020, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6string
(You may notice that he shoots cross-eye dominant!)
Jim
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So do I. But I do it with both eyes open.
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05-30-2020, 07:14 PM
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Hello. I have a 14-3 and a 14-4. The 14-4 has a "normal" gas shield which is a ring on the end of the cylinder and the 14-3 has what I call a gas plug. What I'm calling a gas plug is the cylinder has a recessed hole that the plug fits into. The gas plug 14-3 allows fowling to build up between the cylinder and yoke about a 1000% more than the normal gas shield. I usually shoot 200 to 300 rounds per range trip and the 14-3 always needs a drop or two of solvent to make it thru. The fowling builds up between the cylinder and the part of the yoke it spins on and makes the cylinder hard to turn and the trigger harder to pull. I hope this makes sence. I think S&W saw this as a problem as they went back to the shields type. Anyone else have this problem? Thanks Bill
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05-31-2020, 12:50 AM
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I don't think your choice will depend upon model dash number but on the options you desire. The -5 and -6 have the underlug barrel which is out of the picture. There is no significant difference in the pre 14 to 14-4.. Options to consider is Target Hammer which I think would be very desirable, Target Trigger-triggers come in .250, .375, and .500"wide. There is also the single action only. The hammer arc is about .150 shorter on the SAO. Apparently some gunsmiths did the conversion by modifying existing parts and S&W did offer the parts as aftermarket. This forum can guide you through identifying the difference. There is no difference between oem aftermarket SAO parts and a factory SAO.
I have a -6 and -2 and both are very accurate.
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05-31-2020, 01:35 AM
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Yes I would say target hammer is a plus. I use my left index finger to cock the hammer and the wide hammer spur comes in handy for that.
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05-31-2020, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurusu
Yes I would say target hammer is a plus. I use my left index finger to cock the hammer and the wide hammer spur comes in handy for that.
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That's the major difference between ISSF (International) centerfire and American-style Bullseye. In the former, the "rapid fire" stage could also be called "dueling" stage. It's one shot fired from the lowered position, within a very short timeframe.
Cocking the hammer between shots is not so critical compared to the general precision needed for the tight scoring rings on the ISSF target.
In the latter (American style), the "rapid fire" stage is a sustained fire stage: 5 shots in 10 seconds. You can shoot it DA (some guys do!) or you can practice your dry fire skills so you become very adept with your thumb... specifically the thumb on your shooting hand!
It is in this case that things like "cockeyed" hammers, hammer spur width and shape, arc of hammer motion, all become very critical.
Deferring to the OP, that's why in my first reply in this thread I recommended looking for a K38 (M14) in good original condition.
Special thanks to wv109323 for the SA hammer specs!
Jim
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05-31-2020, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6string
In the former, the "rapid fire" stage could also be called "dueling" stage. It's one shot fired from the lowered position, within a very short timeframe.
Jim
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It used in fact to be called dueling stage until it was considered not "PC". So they changed the name to rapid fire stage which in reality it is not.
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11-07-2020, 01:54 AM
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So I finally picked up a Model 14-3 a few months ago for $600 AUD. This 14-3 was already a single action only. I already had a custom made grip for my Model 14-6 but this was now a full time Service Match gun since I had installed an Aristocratic Sight Rib.
The Model 14-6 is a Round Butt while the Model 14-3 is a Square Butt. So after a little Dremel work, I was able to modify the grips so they would fit. Here's the finished product.
Last edited by Moo Moo; 11-07-2020 at 01:56 AM.
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11-07-2020, 11:00 AM
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Nice! I love k14 and the variety of thumb rest grips I can put on it. My 14-3 wearing here Herrett's (but it has Fitz, Sile , Nill and Klinsky too, other than factory ones)
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11-07-2020, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moo Moo
So I finally picked up a Model 14-3 a few months ago for $600 AUD. This 14-3 was already a single action only. I already had a custom made grip for my Model 14-6 but this was now a full time Service Match gun since I had installed an Aristocratic Sight Rib.
The Model 14-6 is a Round Butt while the Model 14-3 is a Square Butt. So after a little Dremel work, I was able to modify the grips so they would fit. Here's the finished product.
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Very nice. Who made the grips?
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11-07-2020, 06:02 PM
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ThinManX. A got the Grips about 10 years ago. A local shooter made them in his garage. From memory, he took an outline of my hand initially. Then after he did some rough craving out, I went to his place where he spent the next hour or so marking them to exactly fit my hand.
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