Is there a quick, sure way to tell factory engraving? Got a 5" 27, full coverage, and if it's not factory blue somebody out there can do an indiscernible job. This the only engraved S&W I've had. I was expecting something like "eng" on the grip frame like all the Colt's I've had. It looks like factory patterns I've seen except isn't nearly as coarse and crude.

It's got a nice pr of old Art Jewel carved ivory target size grips. So reckon the value of N-frame ivories and what the legality is these days of selling them. I know what the "law" is, but it seems there's a pretty good trade going by simply not mentioning what the grips are made of.

Roger

"...quick, sure..."

Sorry, have to pick one of those.

With good pictures, the more knowledgeable here can probably make a very good assumption. But I think to be sure, a letter will be needed.

All of the factory engraved S&Ws (1950 or later) I have seen or owned have the small S&W logo on the left side of the frame. They are not marked "ENG." or anything similar on the grip frame.

Bill

Yeah, this one has the logo on the left side of the frame, just above the rear of the trigger guard. I'll add some pictures.

it still had what I assume was the original factory grease that ws so dried, the action barely worked. cleaned that out, oiled it and it's still stiff but it's loosening up a bit. I don't leave anything unfired.

trying to upload a picture

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factory targets match the border of the engraving. the Art Jewel's are a bit off.

That looks like a gun I saw for sale recently. . . . . . The grips on it looked a lot like those but were not ivory; hope those are. Can't offer any input on whether the engraving is factory, maybe RKMesa will be along in a bit with an opinion.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

With logo on left my money is on factory engraved.
I think some smooth targets would look nicer also.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

It came from the FW Cabelas so you may have seen it and the grips are ivory.

You have any other pictures of the grips ?
I'm just not seeing it .

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Yes, that was where I saw it. Didn't buy it as was pretty sure they weren't ivory and the Cabelas guy didn't think it was either; couldn't see any grain on the bottom of the grips but didn't remove them to see the insides either. They also couldn't provide any provenance on the engraving. If factory and ivory, you got a great deal! Those grips, if ivory, should be worth what they were asking for the gun.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I'm really more interested in whether the engraving is factory or not. The only question i had about ivory is the current legality of selling it. I've owned enough ivory grips, fitted enough ivory grips, worked down enough grips and knife scales from slabs, i don't need any help determining real from fake. I'm the one that's handled them, looked at them, had them off the gun and examined them. I'll go with my opinion on that.

Forget the grips. wish i'd not mentioned them. But i am curious about the current legality of selling ivory grips with no provenance proving their date of origin.

What i've run into, even when it's very obvious the grips are ivory, is the library guys won't commit to it. I think the current restrictions got imposed when i still worked there and for a time they'd not even buy a gun with ivory grips. That's why i think it's come to a don't ask/don't tell.

The grain is visible in the heel when the light hits them right. the inside has cutter marks from a milling machine. the carving on the sides doesn't let the grain show. i did try the hot nail trick and a finishing nail, red hot, pressed into the grip hard enough to bend the nail at a right angle, did nothing but leave a tiny black mark on the backside.

I don't think there is much of a problem with possessing ivory or selling it if it is on a gun. Might be an issue if an interstate transaction. I've puzzled through the regulations which suggest they can't be sold unless you can establish provenance/age but from a practical point of view I don't think it is much of an issue. Just my opinion of course, worth what you paid for it.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

I knocked the gloss off the heels of the grips with some 320 grit paper, took about 20 pictures in every kind of light and never did get a really good shot. I've owned some SAA factory grips that were so fine grained they had all the character of plastic. I'd rather have a coarser grain that shows and don't even mind a little bit of bark as long as it's not a huge area.

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this is the problem with ivory: Under Federal law, you can sell your African elephant ivory within your state (intrastate commerce) if you can demonstrate that your ivory was lawfully imported prior to the date that the African elephant was listed in CITES Appendix I (January 18, 1990).

some of the grips i bought back in the 80's and 90's, if i even still had them, and if i still had the bill of sale they'd be OK. but who's to say the grips you're holding are the ones referred to on the bill of sale. not like they're serial numbered, registered, tracked by chips, etc. so it's really the wild, wild west - who can prove what on either side.

Real ivory is very heavy. Take them off and hold in your hand. That size will be heavy as a brick.

Not an expert, or even a fake expert, but I have never seen a factory engraved S&W with that style. But I don't know what I'm talking about.

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No life story has happy end.

Simple test and not intrusive.. Heat a straight pin red hot, touch the BACK side of the stock, if it melts in(a small dent), it isnt Ivory. If it smells like burnt hair, its Ivory. There are some REally good imitations out there these days. I for one really dont care about some of these so-called laws. Who the hell keeps receipts for 60 years. I would soak the stocks if Ivory, over night in mineral oil, once a year. This was recommended to me by a museum a number of years ago. JMHO

Have you looked under the grips for an engravers signature or mark? You also need to look under the cylinder release for the engravers initials.

Without a much better resolution picture of the revolver, it does not look like factory engraving to me. The engraving looks pretty good, the curves look good, but a better picture would help. Here it looks like the engraving is shallow. Also the engraving appears to continue past the side plate at the yoke screw. . . that indicates the side plate was installed on the frame at the time of engraving, this is unusual (but not unknown). . . . It was kind of dependent on the engraver

Also the revolver did not leave the Factory with those grips. You can see where the engraving stops at the point the wood target/presentation grips ought to have started

You need to get a Historical letter on that revolver, that is the only way you will be 100% sure . . . everything else is just a guess.

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"Acta non verba"

As mentioned in one of my previous posts i already did the pin thing except i used a finishing nail with the results i described in a previous post.

And I never for one second implied or believed that it left the factory with those grips. That's not stated anywhere in anything i said. in fact i even noted that factory grips match the border of the engraving where these don't.

So, if not factory engraved, why would the logo be on the left side of the frame? S&W just get a wild hair in the N600000 range and swap sides?

The engraving does continue past the side plate not just where you noted but also at the top in front of the hammer. I don't see that proving anything. Every factory engraved Colt SAA i owned had engraving that went beyond the frame onto the backstrap and trigger guard. Didn't prove it wasn't factory. And no engravers signature or initials anywhere that i can find.

You asked us to guess what you had, I guessed

Sorry you do not like my guess

All we have is one poor picture and a written description to go by

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"Acta non verba"

Those guns pictured are all either stainless or late production. None are P&R guns from the 70's. None are N-frame -2's. None are 27's.

I never asked for guesses. I was looking for knowledge. I can get guesses anywhere. I was hoping for people who'd seen more factory engraved guns personally. I can google pictures on the web.

The post by Doc44 is the only one that really gave me anything helpful.

Roger, ivory or fake ivory, factory or not factory engraving, you have a beautiful S&W. One I would love to own. Letter the revolver and get the facts.

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Who are those guys?

Your Model 27-2 should letter as being factory engraved, but a letter is the only way to actually verify that fact as there are no indications on the revolver itself. In 1979, engravers employed by S&W were Russ Smith, Domingos Joaquim, and Paul Piquette. S&W also sent guns to Italy to be engraved beginning in the late 1970s. Additional photos would help, but based on the style of engraving best seen on the side plate, I would guess your revolver was engraved in Italy.

Bill

"The post by Doc44 is the only one that really gave me anything helpful."

Doc44 is one of a handful of members here who are truly experts on S&Ws. Most of us are just guys who like our guns and join discussions to kill time until one of the real experts joins in.

But apparently you are not interested in chit chat. So in the future I will avoid sarcastic barbs by not commenting on your posts...should you make any.

Have a good day.

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No life story has happy end.

I would echo Doc44 comments - Small roll mark on left side is common on all of my factory engraved guns from that era. Although in the one photo you posted is pretty tough to see much detail, I too believe it was one of the factory engraved guns done by Italian contract engravers. The engraving does not appear to me to be the work Russ Smith, Domingos Joaquim, or Paul Piquette.

With all of my guns that I believe are factory engraved I get a historical letter to confirm. It is worth the time and money to get them lettered.

Good luck,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Recently purchased my first engraved S&W off GB.Gun shop that ran the auction said they did not think it was factory engraved since the engraving pattern did not match the engraving book the owner had.Small logo under thumb latch and a factory reblue date on the frame(12/81) convinced me to take a chance.My model 19-4 lettered as a class A factory engraved gun.I do believe it was a contract gun done over seas but I got it for a very reasonable price.Get a letter is the best advice I can give.

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SWCA#2288
SWHF#407

Engraving on the side is done with the sideplate in place by most engravers. The recoil shield can get in the way at times but if the pattern overlaps the joint the sideplate makes with the frame itself, you don't want to try doing the pattern in two pieces.

It does look much like one of the patterns cut by the Italian engravers used by S&W at the time. The only thing I see that somewhat differs is the lack of the usual lavish use of the liner tool in shading the scroll they cut.
Maybe I can't quite see it or perhaps one of the engravers didn't choose to use that style. Anything is possible.
They weren't signed as a general rule,,any of them, except a handful of rarities.
The 'Factory Letter' is your real answer.

Nice looking Revolver..

I tried to upload better pictures but what i was using for a photo hosting site apparently didn't like being linked. I'll re-read the directions and try again.

Roger

Never could get pictures to load off a photo hosting site. the tiny black mark under the N in INDIA is the only effect the hot nail had on the grip even when pressed hard enough to bend it. No engravers signature anywhere, not even under the thumb latch.

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I think I'll get a factory letter on it. Supposedly it only takes 8-12 weeks, and at only $100 is a bargain compared to Colt which is i think approaching $300 now and I think they promise you'll have it by the time your grandkid graduates high school. Last Colt letter I got was in the 90's and i think took about 6 months then.

Roger

Speaking of Italian engravers, I got a Model 70 1/1000 Ultragrade and it was engraved and gold inlaid by an Italian firm. But it was at least signed.

The stocks were made by Art Jewel Enterprises. I think the firm is now Eagle Grips. The engraving was definitely done in Italy. The 27-2 will definitely letter as Class A-engraved (the most coverage; reverse of Colt's coverage designations).

Bill

Thanks Bill,
I've not looked at very many factory engraved S&W's and all i'd seen had larger, deeper and coarser scrolls than this. It just looked so much like factory bluing i had trouble believing it was refinished. A buddy who likes 5" 27's offered a MIB 28 with original numbered grips. think i'll pass.

Actually, engraved Colts seem a lot easier to find. Colt factory engraving at the journeyman level is often not really all that great. I had one nickel C SAA that had no background work at all anywhere. Just scroll, and not much shading on the scroll.

Roger

I remember buying SAA ivory grips from AJE way back but never knew what became of them. They also had really nice sambar stags back in the 80's.

Nice gun and grips.

As has been said, Eagle grips used to be Art Jewel Enterprises years ago. I'm not sure when the change took place. I wish Eagle sold the quantity and quality of Samber Stag grips they used to be able to sell.
Larry

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Miss My Buddy crsides!!

Using it for what it was made for. Had to make a semi-urgent trip to my folks so no internet for a week (remote part of MS) but did get to shoot it some and like every 27 (or 28) i've ever owned, it's awesome. the first group is 7 dozen hot 38's and BDC is about 4 o'clock in that picture and it was shooting a bit low. that was about 1 shot per second standing at 10 yds. the next one is about as many 357 LSWC's except for adjusting the elevation twice. that last group is all double action and mostly left handed. the DA pull is way too heavy, plus i'm not crazy about the shooting properties of those grips. they're a bit too small at the top and with the magnums, the gun shifted down in my hand until the thumb latch was busting my thumb knuckle.

Still, what's not to love. The factory engraved SA's i've owned and fired, i got a lot of guff over "destroying the value" (really? destroyed?). my personal take is i'm not so stupid as to spend good money on a good gun and never fire it.

Besides, a few days ago i saw somebody pay $2k for a plastic camo autoloading shotgun. That makes this gun a bargain.

Roger

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Again, thanks to RKmesa and Doc44 et al for all the useful help and information.

Roger

Doc44, as you said it would - and as I was already sure it would - this gun did letter as factory A engraving. Took forever to get the letter. I'd almost forgotten about it by the time it showed up. The guy who has it now didn't want the Art Jewel grips; just the original (at least per the letter's notation of what it left the factory with) grips which came with it. I still think he should shoot it but he's content to just let it lay in a safe with his others.

Thanks,
Roger

Roger...Glad to have helped and that everything worked out well with the 27-2.

Bill